Is the second half of Eldritch Nails supposed to be nonfunctional pre-10?


Rules Discussion


One of the things I've been most excited about in the new APG is the feat Eldritch Nails for the witch class, which gives you an unarmed attack and, more relevantly for this thread, lets you deliver 2-action non-cantrip offensive hexes through your nails attack. Unfortunately, there are only two two-action offensive hexes, and they are both Focus 5 spells that become available with the major lesson feat at level 10. Is it intended that this feature only be usable with these two hexes, or was there a typo/oversight somewhere here? As is, the feature seems essentially useless and even potentially self-crippling, considerably worse than the already dubiously useful Hex Strike from PF1.


Malicious Shadows would also be elegible, wouldn't it? 2 Actions, non-cantrip hex, no spell attack roll required. That comes on at 6th level.

But there's no denying there's only 3 Hexes you can use the second part of the feat with at all. I don't doubt more will become available as the game goes on though.


Since Malicious Shadows got the PFS clarification that it's a spell attack roll, it's presumably going to also get that in the first round of errata. So... yeah, just two hexes you can't get until level 10.


Dubious Scholar wrote:
Since Malicious Shadows got the PFS clarification that it's a spell attack roll, it's presumably going to also get that in the first round of errata. So... yeah, just two hexes you can't get until level 10.

And with both if those hexes youd arguably be better off not making the free attack in 99% of cases, as they fail (and the focus points are wasted) if it misses. That fact alone seems like it would make the two-action and non-cantrip requirements unnecessary to balance the feat, particularly if it were limited to once per round.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dubious Scholar wrote:
Since Malicious Shadows got the PFS clarification that it's a spell attack roll, it's presumably going to also get that in the first round of errata. So... yeah, just two hexes you can't get until level 10.

Disagree. The attack made by the shadow is a spell attack, but the spell itself doesn't require an attack roll at all. That's just the effect it creates.

Sumutherguy has a point though about it being risky since you lose the spell if you miss. Plus a Witch who's interested in making melee attacks enough to buy the Nails feat probably doesn't need a spell that lets them make Strikes.


Squiggit wrote:

Disagree. The attack made by the shadow is a spell attack, but the spell itself doesn't require an attack roll at all. That's just the effect it creates.

Sumutherguy has a point though about it being risky since you lose the spell if you miss. Plus a Witch who's interested in making melee attacks enough to buy the Nails feat probably doesn't need a spell that lets them make Strikes.

I had really hoped that options which are worse than the base mechanics that they modify werent gonna be a thing in 2e.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

One problem I think 2e is still kind of grappling with is that there are "feats that make you better" and "feats that push you into something new", but a lot of times that new thing isn't actually any better than what you could have done without the option, so it ends up feeling like a really bad choice.

In this case, we have a class that has absolutely no real support for melee combat... so the feat that gives them a (mediocre) melee weapon and a special effect that forces them to rely on their bad melee accuracy doesn't feel great, even beyond the issue of how few compatible hexes there are.

As an aside, I'm not sure why the spell attack limitation is there. Deliver attack-based hex through an actual attack seems like it would make a lot of thematic sense.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not sure I understand what the advantage of delivering the spell via the strike gets you that makes it worth the risk of losing the spell by missing with a melee attack. Do you get to circumvent the target's save? Most witches don't have a particularly good strike so it doesn't seem like the 1d6 even with runes gets you much in exchange for the high likelihood you don't even get to the part where they roll for saving throw, especially since the two spells it works with are already pretty powerful.

It seems a reasonable feat even without that ability. I just want to make sure I understand it.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The benefit of the feat is that it lets you add a free unarmed attack to your cast a spell activity; the nails actually do damage if they hit.

The downside of the feat is that if your nails miss, the hex is wasted.


Sumutherguy wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Disagree. The attack made by the shadow is a spell attack, but the spell itself doesn't require an attack roll at all. That's just the effect it creates.

Sumutherguy has a point though about it being risky since you lose the spell if you miss. Plus a Witch who's interested in making melee attacks enough to buy the Nails feat probably doesn't need a spell that lets them make Strikes.

I had really hoped that options which are worse than the base mechanics that they modify werent gonna be a thing in 2e.

You must not be familiar with Power Attack pre-Furious Focus and post-Striking runes.

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