Side note for polymorph trait states:
"If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the
special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses,
status bonuses, and penalties."
Which is totally fine and understandable.
However level-16 Barbarian's "dragon transformation" feat states:
"You transform into a ferocious Large dragon, gaining the effects
of 6th-level dragon form except that you use your own AC and attack modifier; you also apply your extra damage from Rage."
As if otherwise i couldn't benefit from rage? say being druid with barbarin dedication, and transforming into dragon via wildshape, or simply by casting "dragon form"?
As far as I can read, you can Rage, you just don't get the damage bonus from it:
- You get the Temporary Hit Points if you want.
- You don't get the damage bonus, because it's untyped, not Circumstance or Status.
- You get the penalty to AC, because all penalties apply while polymorphed.
- You get the same restrictions regarding Concentrate actions and such.
That's how I read it, at least.
As far as I can read, you can Rage, you just don't get the damage bonus from it:
- You get the Temporary Hit Points if you want.
- You don't get the damage bonus, because it's untyped, not Circumstance or Status.
- You get the penalty to AC, because all penalties apply while polymorphed.
- You get the same restrictions regarding Concentrate actions and such.That's how I read it, at least.
Thx. If that true, that's bit unfortunate. I though about interesting roleplay experiment. Bit it's kinda counter-productive going rage (as dragon), if you don't benefit from it's main buff - damage.
Be aware that many "untyped bonuses" aren't referred to as bonuses at all, and so would not be affected by polymorph's limitations.
For example, barbarian rage doesn't give a bonus to damage at all. It says "You deal 2 additional damage with melee weapons and unarmed attacks."
Therefore you still get it while polymorphed. The two abilities simply don't interact, and work independently of one another.
Conversely, something that said "you get a +2 bonus to damage" (untyped in this case as it is not called out as a circumstance, item, or status bonus) would not apply as it is a bonus that does not meet polymorph's criteria.
Designers have been extremely precise with the way they've worded their rules so that they can more easily control how things work together or don't.
EDIT: I was mistaken. Due to the wording of polymorph, it excludes non-bonus effects as well.
I stand by my prior assertion that in other cases, many statistical changes or increases are not bonuses, and should not be treated as though they were.
Did further research.
On page 445 (core rule book) it states about penalties:
Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untyped, in which
case they won’t be classified as “circumstance,” “item,” or
“status.” Unlike other penalties, you always add all your
untyped penalties together rather than simply taking the
worst one.
So... according to developers only penalties can be "untyped". But that's clearly not true. There lots and lots of bonuses that doesn't specified to be circumstance, status or item.
:\
Similarly it would be great to get confirmation if polymorphed characters can use trip, grapple, and other such manoeuvers.
Apparently not, since...
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of
which battle form you choose:
...
• One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle
form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use.
You’re trained with them.
Which bit stupid, since actual dragon (or whatever other creature related to battle form) by no way would be restricted on attempt making such attack(s). Nevertheless according to exact wording of spell - you can't...
Which also makes questionable if you can benefit from other class abilities like flurry of blows , power attack, swipe and so on (while polymorphed into battle form).
Battle forms give you an Athletics modifier do they not? Why wouldn't you be able to use maneuvers?
But do you adjust the statistics if you deal extra damage? RAW I don't think so, since you don't change the to hit or damage bonuses. With e.g. rage or sneak attack you just also deal some extra damage, but don't change the damage bonus as such. RAI I have no idea and it would be great to get feedback from Paizo. Similarly it would be great to get confirmation if polymorphed characters can use trip, grapple, and other such manoeuvers.
Interesting stance. I certainly hope it's true.
If it is though that line in the sand just got a whole lot fuzzier.
Ah. I hadn't read it all the way to the end. So sad. :(
I'm sure that will get errata'd away soon.
Battle forms give you an Athletics modifier do they not? Why wouldn't you be able to use maneuvers?
Out of combat actions? Say trying to move massive boulder and such...
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There are a fair few threads on how wildshape works. Consensus on what the rules say and what they mean has never been reached. And Paizo has (as far as I know) never commented one way or the other.
For the moment, ask your GM. And, if you're playing in PFS, try to basically stick to the "reasonable subset". In my experience with PFS, as long as you don't "push" things you're basically ok. And yeah, I'm NOT going to even try and define those things :-(.
But be prepared for a ruling that you disagree with.
Also be prepared for GMs who aren't used to all the implications of the PF2 climb and swim speed rules. Some things are quite different than PF1 (and, arguably, make little or no sense). Know what the rules actually are, whenever possible try and act so they don't matter (always strive to end your move/turn next to a wall or the water, for example).
In general, especially in PFS, do NOT be "that player" who insists that you follow your interpretation of the rules and derail the game for 10 minutes arguing the point.
Go read the other threads or just trust me. The situation is pretty unclear right now, reasonable people can disagree.
I have to say that polymorph as it is most likely historically my favorite spell, even though i gladly agree there tons of ways i could do without having access to polymorph at all.
But seeing specifically how polymorph evolved over the years, by large degree defined overall evolution of both D&D and Pathfinder.
I actually don't even remember how polymorph worked in D&D 2nd edition, but taking that whole rules was quite 'clumsy' and awkward, polymorph likely was similar.
3rd edition brought revolutionary improvement on balancing (compare to what was before it) and build potentials. Devs surely put lots of thoughts on how to make polymorph both interesting, but not absolutely OP at the same time. Like preventing using supernatural and spell-like abilities, and preventing polymorphing into specific type of creatures. Although overall rules still was quite complex (i think 3e polymorph spellcard is biggest spellcard i'v ever seen), and could troble DM with some features player could potentially get. Like morphing his strength from puny 5 to mighty 29, when polymorphing into cloud giant.
PF1e took both much simplified and better balanced approach on how polymorph works. Giving plain stats boost to you. As if if you were weakling of a human, you would just polymorph into weakling of the dragon... obviously stronger than most humans, but still much weaker compare to 'regular' dragons, and also just plainly listing what abilities you would get, and how often you can use'em.
That overall can be described how PF1e evolved from D&D 3.5e.
In 5e (hopefully for obvious reason i'll skip 4e) polymorph unfortunately become something sadly useless. Well, mostly. I suppose you still could try and use it offensively, morphing some purple worm into a cat. But as far as you would try to use it to improve your own combat performance - 5e polymorph is in very sad state. The only use i can see is using it on character who 100% specialize on social encounters, and maybe some off-combat healing.
That overall characterize how 5e went. With simplification of rules went too far. Making some stuff quite unbalanced, while many other things just plainly dull.
I have to say that overall i like polymorph spells in PF2e, i really do. I see what approach devs went, with careful trying to both balance it, and make it reasonably simple. I just think it's JUST bit too restrictive. Like it's obviously balanced compare to UNGEARED melee-fighter of the same level, but at the same time restrict us to benefit from (nearly) all gear items. And unfortunately also minimize synergy you could use with 'multiclassing'. Especially since game have clearly OP elements. Both in pure form, like strike runes and ranger's 'impossible flurry'. And actually not penalize you in attempt to use such OP element together to even more ridiculously OP effects.
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I have to say that overall i like polymorph spells in PF2e, i really do. I see what approach devs went, with careful trying to both balance it, and make it reasonably simple. I just think it's JUST bit too restrictive. Like it's obviously balanced compare to UNGEARED melee-fighter of the same level, but at the same time restrict us to benefit from (nearly) all gear items. And unfortunately also minimize synergy you could use with 'multiclassing'. Especially since game have clearly OP elements. Both in pure form, like strike runes and ranger's 'impossible flurry'. And actually not penalize you in attempt to use such OP element together to even more ridiculously OP effects
Don't get me wrong, I love wild shape in 2e. Both of my highest level characters (a cleric and druid) use it frequently. That is why I follow the threads as closely as I do :-)
The druid and cleric stay within the "obviously works" portion of the rules and are doing just fine. Combat forms are a decent option when they wish to conserve spells or the group kinda needs another melee sort (they're both PFS characters) to give flanks, get in the way, etc. Or they just feel like ripping somebodies face apart because they're peeved :-). And the utility out of combat can be immense, more than making up for the feats expended on it.
Where the issues come up tend strongly to be with the martials who are seeking to use Wild Shape as their primary attack. And that is where the lack of clarity really hurts. If you make some assumptions, a wild shaped martial is somewhere between significantly ahead of the curve or at least par on the curve while still having advantages (movement types, speed, reach, etc), albeit at a defensive cost.
If you use other assumptions then the martial is behind the curve and, mechanically, sub optimal.
So, it works just fine for the druid. The barbarian, fighter, rogue, etc quickly runs into places where its just not clear how the rules work.
In a home game, thats fine. Talk to the GM. In PFS it is, however, an issue. Its one of the main reason that I do NOT have a shape changing martial in PFS. Its just not worth the hassle.
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Another small thing i feel like complained about. I feel like there strange misbalance on how sorcerers and druids gaining benefits with Dragons Form in particular.
Sorcerers just giving bonus spell for free... and that's it. Not like "hey, you have dragon blood in your vein, so here like... bonus duration for dragon form, and bonus stats you receive while in dragon form... and few extra tricks you can use with dragon form!". Nope, just throwing bonus spell at you. Something you could easily get on your own anyway.
At the same time, druids never really related to dragons anyhow, neither in D&D, nor in Pathfinder. Turning into animals - sure, turning into plants - sure, elementals - yes (at least i know some D&D lore make druids related to elemental planes, not sure about PF). Magical beast - eh, sure, why not.
But dragons?..
Yet they (can) get dragon form for their wildshape. More so potentially can get infinite duration for that. Where dragon bloodline sorcerers still enjoy just a one minute duration standard dragon form...
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This was discussed in multiple topics, where this LINK shows that rage, sneak, flaming, weapon spec are not bonus damage, just extra damage and would all apply to polymorph.
Another question then.
On other topic pp trying to convince me that strike runes pretty much mandatory, if you rely on melee combat. And if untyped 'features' not considered to be bonuses, and thus should(?) work with battle form polymorph, would i be able to benefit from strike runes on handwraps of mighty blows?
After all strike runes not related to item bonus:
A striking rune stores destructive magic in the weapon,
increasing the weapon damage dice it deals to two instead of
one. For instance, a +1 striking dagger would deal 2d4 damage
instead of 1d4 damage.
and polymorph specifically again:
Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your
gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.
Once again, i still feel like overall strike runes are way stronger than other "buffs" you can acquire in game. But at the same time i wouldn't really be able to compete in battle form compare to more classic combatants, who normally and fully benefit from strike runes.
And in case it does, how would it work with battlefor strikes that have more than one damage dice? For example blue dragon form bite: 2d10 piercing plus 1d12 electricity
Another question then.
On other topic pp trying to convince me that strike runes pretty much mandatory, if you rely on melee combat. And if untyped 'features' not considered to be bonuses, and thus should(?) work with battle form polymorph, would i be able to benefit from strike runes on handwraps of mighty blows?
After all strike runes not related to item bonus:
A striking rune stores destructive magic in the weapon,
increasing the weapon damage dice it deals to two instead of
one.
Constants effects do function.
But it all comes down to whether you consider the damage dice listed in the Battle Form spells to be part of the special statistics that are protected by the polymorph rules.
If they are (which is what I think), then adding a weapon dice is modifiying the special statistics and is not valid.
Personally I don't see the need to do this as the damage dice of the Battle Forms spells increase in line with what you would expect.
So no striking runes don't add.
This was discussed in multiple topics, where this LINK shows that rage, sneak, flaming, weapon spec are not bonus damage, just extra damage and would all apply to polymorph.
This is honestly are horribly intuitive answer.
I like Mark, but this is a bad ruling in my opinion because they're creating a distinction between extra and bonus that shouldn't be there to justify getting the damage because of how the rules were written.