One of my groups campaigns is approaching it's conclusion, and we've picked what story our next campaign is going to follow (it's a homebrew campaign), so many of us are working on getting our characters for the next campaign sorted out so we'll be all ready to go when it starts. Currently I'm torn between a couple different build paths for my particular character.
Build 1) Brawler(Battle Dancer)20 - Just a single class build with no spellcasting, just simply a Battle Dancer, weapon of choice 2x Fighting Fans
Build 2) Brawler(Battle Dancer)2/Bard(Juggler)2/Magus(Eldritch Scion/Card Caster)16 - Multiclassed build designed around use of Magus spellcombat and spellstrikes interweaved within the highly mobile combat style of a battle dancer, using the Juggler Bard to facilitate two-weapon fighting and Spellcombat/Spellstrike
Build 3) Brawler(Battle Dancer)2/Bard(Juggler)18 - An alternative caster option focused more on using spells for utility purposes rather than direct combat with them
regardless of build path chosen the character will be a Suli, with the Mostly Human and Energy Strike(Earthfoot) ARTs, and starting off as a Brawler(Battle Dancer). Stats are: Str-10, Dex-16, Con-12, Int-12, Wis-10, Cha-20.
So as to keep things civilized, please don't post a response saying that "___ is a terrible class/archetype and should never be used." Constructive criticism please, not destructive...
I am also contemplating possibly using a Bladed Scarf and taking the Kapenia Dancer archetype for Magus if I go with build option #2...
There's very little incentive for a Battle Dancer to have 20 CHA, as opposed to having some extra STR for damage and DEX for accuracy, if you are using weapon finesse. I get the Dancing Dodge CHA-to-AC thing is attractive, but it only works for a single attack.
There is even LESS incentive for a Brawler to use TWO weapons – with Brawler's Flurry, you only need to occupy one hand to TWF.
You will also have a very very hard time multiclassing with Battle Dancer. The main issue here is that you will be extremely choked for swift/immediate actions – Dancing Dodge eats swift actions, Magus features eat swift actions, Bard performances, Martial Flexibility, etc. etc.
I think if you want to enjoy a Battle Dancer, you stick with the class, plan out a good build, and balance out the attributes a bit more.
You will also have a very very hard time multiclassing with Battle Dancer. The main issue here is that you will be extremely choked for swift/immediate actions – Dancing Dodge eats swift actions, Magus features eat swift actions, Bard performances, Martial Flexibility, etc. etc.
This is part of the reason why the multi-class options only take 2 levels of Brawler &/or Bard... a 2nd level Battle Dancer doesn't get Dancer's Dodge and Martial Flexibility is a Move action until 6th level... and Bardic Performance doesn't become a Swift action until 13th level... which would leave swift actions in build 3 fully available for Arcane Pool usage and swift action spellcasting... in option 2, they would be left open for Bardic performance and swift action spellcasting... while option 1 would have them only for Dancer's Dodge and Martial Flexibility...
It looks to me that you can be a Battle Dancer and a Snakebite Striker. I'd have you take Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose. I'd have you dip a level in MOMS Monk and take Panther and Snake style feats. I'd have you take levels in Unchained Rogue so you can get Dex-to-Damage with your Unarmed Strikes, and you can take Sap Adept and Knockout Artist.
That is a very interesting option... and I absolutely LOVE the idea of taking Panther Style... however, Rolling Flurry doesn't provoke AoOs with it's movement unless I'd otherwise be unable to take a 5ft step that round... which basically means I'd rarely benefit from Panther Style...
Snake Style is a little odd, and doesn't seem very well written... all three feats try to eat up your 1 Immediate/Swift action per round to accomplish different things... the first feat seems mildly useful, but falls flat if my sense motive is low... the second feat is highly situational as to if it'd ever actually be useful... however the third feat, Snake Fang is awesome, AoO when opponents miss and if I havn't used my Immidiate/swift action yet I can expend it for a second attack right after... That looks promising...I've looked at Circling Mongoose before, and I do like the benefit of getting to flank with myself... however the requirement of Spring Attack is very unattractive...
I've been heavily considering taking Canny Tumble already on the build... but as previously mentioned, movement during Rolling Flurry doesn't provoke normally, removing the need to roll Acrobatics to Tumble...
If I do go with the non-caster option then I wouldn't mind adding in Snakebite Striker... Not to fond of giving up Martial Flexibility through...
A 3 level dip into Unchained Rogue for Finesse Training could probably be a better option than the feat investment for Two-weapon Grace I was already planning... either way, I'd be a minimum of level 5 before I can TWF with dex to damage on both attacks... and if I went with unarmed strikes it would absolutely be a better option...
While MoMS Monk has some major benefit to it... Alignment restrictions can be a bit of an annoyance... and I had planned to go Chaotic Neutral... While I know Monk won't lose abilities after an Alignment shift, it can be tricky to trigger an alignment shift... and I can guarantee 100% with the backstory I've got for her already I'd never be allowed to start as Lawful, True Neutral would be questionable at best, and rewriting my backstory is absolutely not an option...
That said, I do actually like your build suggestion... it just has some issues that I'm not sure can be worked out...
I will agree with Scott on Panther Style.
Snake Style, Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose from memory all sound like good ideas too. I think I was going to do a bloodrager fire element battle dancer for mega speed movement well it was a theory build.
I think high charisma is not a bad idea...I mean there is always rp-ing interaction and use magic device. I think 20 is too high especially with a strength that low. Unless you're doing dex to damage with the fans I'd just go full fists(especially with panther style) unless there was some thematic reason for the fans. :)
Maybe Osyluth Guile for when you don't want to use Dancing Dodge?
Spring attack might not be a bad idea either as well as you'd be very hard to pin down between it and rolling flurry. Plus I think it might keep you alive longer vs major melee enemies with what will probably be not super great AC and overall damage output. Just speculating on the final build.
Lunge???
I will agree with Scott on Panther Style.
Snake Style, Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose from memory all sound like good ideas too. I think I was going to do a bloodrager fire element battle dancer for mega speed movement well it was a theory build.
I think high charisma is not a bad idea...I mean there is always rp-ing interaction and use magic device. I think 20 is too high especially with a strength that low. Unless you're doing dex to damage with the fans I'd just go full fists(especially with panther style) unless there was some thematic reason for the fans. :)
Maybe Osyluth Guile for when you don't want to use Dancing Dodge?
Spring attack might not be a bad idea either as well as you'd be very hard to pin down between it and rolling flurry. Plus I think it might keep you alive longer vs major melee enemies with what will probably be not super great AC and overall damage output. Just speculating on the final build.
Lunge???
I am intending to go Dex to Damage... I probably should have noted that in the first post... but I can't edit it now...
The fans are honestly for thematic reasons... and I can always pick up an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile) to get dex to damage on unarmed strikes for Panther Style... I really do like Panther Style, just not sure if I'll actually get to utilize it...
Honestly, the only real use I'd get out of Spring Attack is for moving to and from targets... otherwise Rolling Flurry is always the better choice for a full-round action...
Osyluth Guile could be nice indeed... the -4 to attack to fight defensively ontop of the -2 already from two-weapon fighting might not be worth it...
Ok... so... current revised build plan... based on ya'lls advise.
Race: Suli (+2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int) - Mostly Human, Energy Strike(Earthfoot)
Stats: Str-10, Dex-16, Con-12, Int-12, Wis-10, Cha-18 (Array: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8)
Class: Brawler(Battle Dancer/Snakebite Striker)17/Fighter(Varisian Free-Style Fighter)3
Feats: (in no particular order - infact not sure what order to take them in)
Weapon Finesse (Combat) - This one I know will be at Lv1.
Combat Reflexes (Combat)
Dodge (Combat)
Mobility (Combat)
Spring Attack (Combat)
Circling Mongoose (Combat)
Panther Style (Combat, Style) - I am aware I will need to bump up my Wisdom for this feat chain
Panther Claw (Combat)
Panther Parry (Combat)
Snake Style (Combat, Style)
Snake Sidewind (Combat)
Snake Fang (Combat)
Canny Tumble (Combat)
Osyluth Guile (Combat) - Maybe (Not sure if the attack penalty is worth it)
Two-Weapon Defense (Combat) - Maybe
???
Bonus Feats at Fighter Lv2, Brawler Lv2, Lv5, Lv8, Lv11, Lv 14, & Lv 17.
Because the fighter levels exist purely for the ability to style blend via Free Fighting Style (Ex) at Lv3, I figure it will be best to line up those levels with when I can get both Style feats... I really liked the MoMS Monk build idea, I just can't do the Lawful alignment for this character... and I found the Varisian Free-Style Fighter can do the same thing as the MoMS, just less effective and unfortunately doesn't get the free style feats...
I still think I'll be going with Fighting Fans though... while I am aware my unarmed strikes will do more damage (by 1 die step) I would still like to utilize them for thematic reasons... nothing is stopping me from fulfilling the Unarmed Strike requirements of my style feats AoOs via Kicks.
Suggestions on feat order/changes?
Note: I can comfortably take an additional 2 level dip outside of Brawler if I need to...
Edit: I just noticed... I can get the effect of Snake Fang with the Feat Counterpunch instead... sure it doesn't have the bonus immediate action attack, and requires me to be unarmed... but, now I'm thinking maybe I should take 2 levels of Juggler Bard, thus qualifying as unarmed while simultaneously wielding my fighting fans ,instead of the fighter levels and only use Panther Style... since honestly Snake Fang is the only part of the Snake Fang feat that really seems worth it... that would free up 3 feats, 2 of which would go to Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Counterpunch...
can get the effect of Snake Fang with the Feat Counterpunch insteadCounterpunch can only be used/round where Snake Fang is only limited by your Combat Reflexes. Snake Fang can be taken at level 9, where you have to be a Level 12 Brawler or have a BAB of +16. And you are planning on doing a lot of dipping.
Well at this point it's either a 2 level dip into Bard(Juggler) and taking Counterpunch, or a 3 level dip into Fighter(Free-style Fighter) and taking Snake style... I don't think a 2 or 3 level dip is "a lot of dipping"...
I did a little experimenting with feat progressions and ended up with the following 2 options... both of which end up around the same level for Snake Fang or Counterpunch...
Brawler18/Bard2 (Bard(Juggler) at Lv11 and Lv13)
Lv Feats
1st Improved Unarmed Strike(Brawler), Weapon Finesse
2nd Two-weapon Fighting(Flurry), Combat Reflexes
3rd Dodge
4th —
5th Mobility, Spring Attack
6th —
7th Circling Mongoose
8th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry), Panther Style
9th Panther Claw
10th —
11th Panther Parry, Weapon Focus
12th Deflect Arrows(Fast Reactions)
13th Counterpunch
14th —
15th Canny Tumble
16th ?Osyluth Guile?
17th Greater Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry), ?Two-Weapon Defense?
18th —
19th ???, ???
20th —
OR
Brawler17/Fighter3 (Fighter(Free-style Figher) at Lv9-L11)
Lv Feats
1st Improved Unarmed Strike(Brawler), Weapon Finesse
2nd Two-weapon Fighting(Flurry), Combat Reflexes
3rd Dodge
4th —
5th Mobility, Spring Attack
6th —
7th Circling Mongoose
8th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry), Panther Style or Snake Style
9th Panther Style or Snake Style
10th Snake Sidewind or Panther Claw
11th Snake Sidewind or Panther Claw
12th —
13th Snake Fang or Panther Parry
14th Snake Fang or Panther Parry
15th Canny Tumble
16th —
17th ?Osyluth Guile?, ?Two-Weapon Defense?
18th Greater Two-Weapon Fighting(Flurry)
19th ???
20th ???
The feats for the style chains are pretty much all interchangeable throughout those levels...
Both builds reach full strength around the same time... the brawler/bard build hits full strength faster and has 2 open feat slots, some minor utility via Bardic Performance, and a couple spells... while the brawler/fighter build hits full strength 1 level later and also has 2 open feat slot, but gets a full 20 BAB and as you pointed out more AoO from enemies who miss...
That is a very interesting option... and I absolutely LOVE the idea of taking Panther Style... however, Rolling Flurry doesn't provoke AoOs with it's movement unless I'd otherwise be unable to take a 5ft step that round... which basically means I'd rarely benefit from Panther Style...
Panther Style is wildly overestimated in most cases, as it relies on your GM playing every single creature as mindless automatons with no understanding of cause and effect. It's also heavily countered by enemies having reach, which is hard to combat as a finesse build.
If you absolutely want to use Panther Style instead of waiting for Snake Fang (no need for both), then I recommend the Blade Boot to create difficult terrain for your Rolling Flurry. You also want Nimble Moves (or a fly speed) to not lose your 5-foot step.
Mobility, Armor Trick (Light, Reflexive Mobility), Fey Obedience (The Lost Prince), Weapon Trick (One-Handed, Stylish Riposte) are all feats that synergize well with this build path.
Race: Suli (+2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int) - Mostly Human, Energy Strike(Earthfoot)
Stats: Str-10, Dex-16, Con-12, Int-12, Wis-10, Cha-18 (Array: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8)
Class: Brawler(Battle Dancer/Snakebite Striker)17/Fighter(Varisian Free-Style Fighter)3
The Battle Dancer is still a brawler. Unless you were planning on going into a charisma based caster you dump charisma as normal. The only class feature you have that benefits from high charisma is Dancing Dodge. But the real benefit is walking out of enemy full-attacks, not the AC bonus.
Two-Weapon Defense (Combat) - Maybe
Just use a buckler/Tekko-Kagi. You can wield your cosmetic Fighting Fan in this hand.
Is a 1 level scaled fist dip out of the question? You seem to focus on CHA.
It is not unreasonable for an intelligent opponent to realize that provoking Attacks of Opportunity is some kind of trap, but when GMs just arbitrarily decide that when fighting your character, they all elect not to take their attacks of opportunity that they always took before, well, that's your GM cheating.
Yes, if it is the first round of the encounter and nobody takes any AoOs then the GM is metagaming. But if enemies have already seen how you baited an AoO to instead retaliate, they might think something is up when you do the exact same thing again and again.
You're engaged in melee with some lightly armored foe that won't stop growling at you. Suddenly they drop their guard and dash to the left, so you take the opportunity to strike at their side. The foe turns around the moment you lunge, slashes you across the chest, and does some impossible spin to avoid your sword.
"What the hell was that", you think. Then you see the agile fiend run past your pal and the same stupid retaliation and spin happens again. You realize what's up and call out to everyone else.
So, you use Acrobatics to move through your enemies' Reach until they are within yours. Then you make a normal Move out of that Threatened Square and Provoke Attacks of Opportunity as normal.
The Acrobatics check isn't done once per square, but once per foe. It is possible to use one Move action to move adjacent with acrobatics, and then another to move out of the threatened area. But then you're not getting any full-attack.
These Feats totally stack
They do, and I would recommend it if I didn't believe Panther Style to be so circumstantial.
I am intending to get a headband of wisdom ASAP to cover the wisdom problem... not really much I can do other than that for it... I did rearrange my attributes some, but dumping charisma is not actually an option, it's not about being optimal as much as it is about the character concept... also out of combat her charisma based skill checks are a major focus...
Str-(8+2)10, Dex-18, Con-14, Int-(12-2)10, Wis-10, Cha-(16+2)18
Anyways, I think I'm going to go with the Brawler17/Fighter3 build... my only real remaining reserve to Panther Style is the fact that Rolling Flurry negates AoOs normally... though the suggestion about the Blade Boot does sound like a somewhat viable work around but it stops being viable after level 10 when I have 5+ attacks per round since Rolling Flurry requires me to move 5ft between each attack and difficult terrain halves my speed putting me at 15ft, thus only 4 attacks possible during a Flurry before any increase to my speed... and well... as can be seen with my feat map... the bladed boot's viability dies off at the point where I actually start wanting to trigger AoOs from movement...
Are there any options to make yourself "not able to take a 5ft step normally this round" that doesn't involve reducing your total movement speed? I know I could utilize Step Up, but it's highly situational since I'd be reliant on a foe taking a 5ft step away from me, and that still reduces my total movement by 5ft for the following round...
The hoops required to jump through for Panther Style to work with Rolling Flurry might just not be worth it...
I'm aware that OP wants to use war fans or a bladed scarf but...it just seems like a real shame not to use that 20 cha for attacks. If you can consider being a Desna worshiper her Deific Combat Style will let you use charisma mod with starknives.
I've thought about it, but while it would be the most optimal thing to do, it doesn't fit the character...
Is a 1 level scaled fist dip out of the question? You seem to focus on CHA.
As with the problem with MoMS Monk... I can't swing the Lawful Alignment requirement for this character without a complete rewrite of her backstory, which is absolutely out of the question.
We're talking about some very fast thinking on the part of the monsters.
If you let the sorcerer switch elemental damage after their fireball was ineffective then enemies should also be able to change their tactics. If the party archer readied an attack to interrupt a spellcaster and succeeded in the first round, then sooner or later that spellcaster will run to cover before casting a spell.
Panther Style happens when the PC deliberately drops their guard from movement, which makes it a obvious tell. You don't let the enemy make a Sense Motive check to magically know exactly what the PC is planning, you simply allow them to react to their surroundings as living beings do.
The Acrobatics check isn't done once per square, but once per foe.I think you are mistaken:
One Check only entitles you to move out of one Threatened Space. The FAQ says Space, not spaces.Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.
For example, a rogue is flanked by a meek goblin and a terrifying antipaladin. The rogue move away from both of them, provoking an attack of opportunity from both, but uses Acrobatics to attempt to negate them. She must move at half speed while threatened by these foes and can choose which to check against first. If she fails a check, she provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe. If she makes it, she does not provoke from moving through that foe's threatened space this turn.
The FAQ explicitly states "only once per foe". Taking one sentence out of context to make an argument based on what you perceive to be faulty grammar does not in any way disregard the FAQ. While the plural of Space is Spaces, if you add more space to your space... it's still called your space. (And they're also using "Space" incorrectly, as the rogue isn't moving through the creatures' space but their threatened area in the example.)
just to head things off before the debate gets out of hand...
1) the DMs in my group along with myself, all have the same understanding of the FAQ answer regarding acrobatics that Wonderstell has of it. One check per enemy per turn, if you succeed then you don't provoke from that enemy when moving through their threatened spaces for that round.
2) the DM for this particular campaign and I have had many discussions regarding enemy reactions to player actions and DM knowledge... we have had issues before with a previous DM who would repeatedly put DM knowledge ahead of reasonable expected reactions. Most foes will not put two-and-two together quickly enough to save them from falling victim to the same trick twice nor are they often observant enough to notice what everyone is doing at any one moment. He also is a firm believer in NOT rendering a players feat/ability choices useless like that. While an intelligent and observant foe might catch on and not fall victim to the tactic the most common foes will rarely if ever catch on without it being pointed out to them directly, and even then they might not comprehend the warning until it's too late.
Any further debate as to if it should be one way or another is rather moot as this is how it will be handled in the campaign in question.
Right-O.
I understand that Panther Style sounded fun, but your ability scores really don't lend themselves to that style. It's probably better to use it for another concept.
Taking Circling Mongoose is a bad idea with Rolling Flurry because you'll use up 10 ft of movement between each strike, and it prevents you from attacking any other target. So when you use Circling Mongoose you're stuck both attacking and getting AoOs from just one enemy per round.
You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can’t exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
Right-O.
I understand that Panther Style sounded fun, but your ability scores really don't lend themselves to that style. It's probably better to use it for another concept.
Taking Circling Mongoose is a bad idea with Rolling Flurry because you'll use up 10 ft of movement between each strike, and it prevents you from attacking any other target. So when you use Circling Mongoose you're stuck both attacking and getting AoOs from just one enemy per round.
You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can’t exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
Nothing in Circling Mongoose nor Rolling Flurry say or imply that the distance between each attack is compounded upon eachother. Both simply require moving 5ft. between each strike. You don't move 5ft. to satisfy Rolling Flury and then an additional 5ft. to satisfy Circling Mongoose, you simply move 5ft. and satisfy both.
When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.
When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can’t exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn. You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
As for the target restriction... If I need to attack multiple targets in a single round, I can simply elect to NOT utilize Circling Mongoose for that attack sequence thus not getting the benefit of potentially flanking with myself in exchange for the flexibility to move between two or more foes. It doesn't say that it automatically applies to all of my full-attack actions, it says I CAN take a full-attack action to do so, which means it is my choice when the effects apply.
However... I do now see one glaring problem to Circling Mongoose... it would deny me access to AoOs against anyone other than my chosen target on the rounds I were to utilize it... the flanking benefit is great for getting sneak attack, but the loss of AoOs... that is definitely a problem...
As for replacing Panther Style... I'm not really seeing any good alternatives to it...
So... if I drop Circling Mongoose and Panther Style, what might ya'll suggest picking up in their stead?
Would the Azata Style feat chain, taking Agile Maneuvers and Wind Stance in place of Circling Mongoose and Spring Attack, be a good alternative? It would give me a little extra AC from all my movement each round, an extra 10ft base speed, Dex to CMB/CMD, partial Concealment vs ranged, and a free trip attempt on the rare occasions that I do still provoke from movement (for example, using Dancing Dodge while threatened by two or more targets).
Or maybe should I get something to make Feinting more effective and accessable? I have a sneak attack, so feinting is highly beneficial to me... and a high charisma plus Dancer's Cunning lets me use my Perform (Dance) to feint which I will have a high bonus to...
Nothing in Circling Mongoose nor Rolling Flurry say or imply that the distance between each attack is compounded upon eachother. Both simply require moving 5ft. between each strike. You don't move 5ft. to satisfy Rolling Flury and then an additional 5ft. to satisfy Circling Mongoose, you simply move 5ft. and satisfy both.
You're confusing the benefit of these abilities, the ability to move, with a prerequisite for the abilities to work. If two abilities said you had to move 10 ft to get a bonus, you'd obviously only have to move 10 ft to trigger both of them.
But these are separate benefits, separate movements, with their own separate rules. Rolling Flurry says it doesn't provoke, but Circling Mongoose says it does. How would you determine if the movement provokes or not if you simply move 5 ft once per attack?
====
So... if I drop Circling Mongoose and Panther Style, what might ya'll suggest picking up in their stead?
Eldritch Heritage for a Protector Familiar? +50/100% HP is always a good choice.
Or maybe should I get something to make Feinting more effective and accessable? I have a sneak attack, so feinting is highly beneficial to me... and a high charisma plus Dancer's Cunning lets me use my Perform (Dance) to feint which I will have a high bonus to...
You're probably better off investing feats into Stealth and using the movement from Rolling Flurry to get sneak attack on all attacks.
Nothing in Circling Mongoose nor Rolling Flurry say or imply that the distance between each attack is compounded upon eachother. Both simply require moving 5ft. between each strike. You don't move 5ft. to satisfy Rolling Flury and then an additional 5ft. to satisfy Circling Mongoose, you simply move 5ft. and satisfy both.You're confusing the benefit of these abilities, the ability to move, with a prerequisite for the abilities to work. If two abilities said you had to move 10 ft to get a bonus, you'd obviously only have to move 10 ft to trigger both of them.
But these are separate benefits, separate movements, with their own separate rules. Rolling Flurry says it doesn't provoke, but Circling Mongoose says it does. How would you determine if the movement provokes or not if you simply move 5 ft once per attack?
You're reading things into the abilities that simply aren't there. Honestly, the ONLY argument that I can see being legitimately made in opposition to them stacking together would be that they might actually require two separate full round actions making you have to choose between either a Rolling Flurry or Circling Mongoose. The way they are worded however make absolutely zero allusion to requiring separate 5ft movements for each. They both say "must move 5 feet before each melee attack".
As for circling mongoose provoking. The feat describes the NORMAL function of the action. IF you have any effect that prevents you from provoking from movement (such as for example a blurred movement spell) does it suddenly cease functioning when you perform a Circling Mongoose attack? No, it remains active and overrules the AoO. The same would apply with Rolling Flurry, when both are used at the same time, the protection from AoO in Rolling Flurry would override the AoO of Circling Mongoose.
So... if I drop Circling Mongoose and Panther Style, what might ya'll suggest picking up in their stead?Eldritch Heritage for a Protector Familiar? +50/100% HP is always a good choice.
I personally don't see a Protector Familiar as a worthwhile investment. Having a familiar to split off half of your damage taken too may sound nice in theory... but in practice it can be quite devastating... if you're playing a heartless tyrant who views their familiar as nothing more than a pawn then sure, it's a great option... but if you like to RP a greater connection to your familiar then that's like throwing your pet or best friend in front of a speeding train to save your own life...
The way they are worded however make absolutely zero allusion to requiring separate 5ft movements for each.
I disagree, but this discussion has lost its relevance.
but if you like to RP a greater connection to your familiar then that's like throwing your pet or best friend in front of a speeding train to save your own life...
There's no alignment restriction of being evil when taking a Protector familiar. The familiar is choosing to share half of your damage because you have a greater connection. It's not like throwing your best friend in front of a train, it's your friend deciding to take a bullet for you.
Protector familiars are so devoted that they would give their lives for their masters.
====
How about Lightning Stance then, as you were already eyeing Wind Stance?
If you take two actions to move or a withdraw action in a turn, you gain 50% concealment for 1 round.
Rolling Flurry is a full-round action to move (and attack), so you only need one more to trigger Lightning Stance. Using Dancing Dodge on your turn as a swift action would qualify you for the 50% miss chance. If you can convince your GM that a 5-foot step is an action (it's by the Miscellaneous Actions) then it's even easier to trigger it.
Deific Obedience is also something to consider if you're going all the way to lv 20. As are other Eldritch Heritage paths if you don't want a familiar.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've decided at this point, I'm doing a full 20 levels of Brawler with Battle Dancer & Snakebite Striker... going to stick with the Snake Style feat chain, and dropping Panther Style (I can definitely work that into a different build)...
Building into Two-weapon Feint & Improved Two-weapon Feint to give me a reliable method of locking in SA for rounds where I can't reliably get flanking (which starting at level 11 I should be able to secure flanking for a whole round reliably... via Snake Feint.) I thought about just going with Improved Flanking because of Snake Feint... but unfortunately that will only allow for SA on standard action attacks since it would only allow for feinting as part of my normal move action, not as part of my movement from Rolling Flurry... Two-weapon Feint on the other hand will let me Feint on a full attack, at the cost of my first main-hand attack each round... Improved will persist the effects for the full round instead of just the next attack. (A trade-off I can accept)
I'm considering building into using Dirty Tricks as well, that would give me some extra utility and a 3rd way to secure SA (Feint, Flanking, & Blind)...
At this point I've abandoned any plans of using magic on the character (though UMD will always be an option due to her high CHA)
I think I'm quite satisfied with how the build looks now. Thank you all again for the advice. Also, thankyou for the tip on Dirty Fighting... I've always wished there was an alternative to Combat Expertise for all the combat maneuver feats...