can you elaborate what you mean by your question?
What other animal companion related class features do you mean?
I have a player in my game who is like triple classing and Sacred Huntmaster is one archetype he going. He claims he gets all the AC abilities listed here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/
I am wondering if he is correct in this.
Ah ok. In the case of a sacred huntsmaster the answer is sort of. They get everything in that link and more. Their ability states:
Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a sacred huntsmaster forms a bond with an animal companion. This ability works as the hunter class feature of the same name, using her inquisitor level as her hunter level. This ability replaces judgment 1/day.
Hunter states the following
Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a hunter forms a bond with an animal companion. A hunter may begin play with any of the animals available to a druid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hunter on her adventures. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature). The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the companion’s statistics and abilities. A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. The animal companion can use skirmisher tricks when commanded, a number of times per day equal to half its Hit Dice plus its Wisdom modifier.
If a hunter releases her companion from service or her animal companion perishes, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. While the hunter’s animal companion is dead, any animal she summons with a summon nature’s ally spell remains for 1 minute per level instead of 1 round per level. A hunter cannot have more than one summon nature’s ally spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon nature’s ally immediately ends.
What you linked to is everything that's listed under the Druid's Nature Bond ability. In addition to that the inquisitor can teach their animal companion skirmisher tricks and if at any time while their animal companion is dead they get an extended summons ability.
Every animal compainion class ability usually comes with the "your X level counts as your druid level (possibly -3 or -4) for this animal companion".
Boon companion and Horsemaster can mess with the levels an animal companion has. But the druid level never goes over your level.
Although I'm pretty sure there was a trait or alternative racial trait that could actually add a level above yours... but I can't seem to find it now, maybe it doesn't exist...
Boon companion has that language but horse master doesn't.
Boon companion has that language but horse master doesn't.
Horse master works by setting your effective druid level to = your character level. So it doesn't appear to need the language about exceeding your character level.
You may be thinking of Oracle. They have a FCB that can make their companion revelation higher than their level.
Boon companion has that language but horse master doesn't.Horse master works by setting your effective druid level to = your character level. So it doesn't appear to need the language about exceeding your character level.
that isn't what the feat states
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
So, what is a mount
A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount.
Now, ignoring the feat for a moment.
Since a mount functions as an animal companion it will stack with other classes that grant an animal companion, provided that you choose something that is an eligible option for both. So, if you take levels in druid and pick a horse as your animal companion the levels in druid will stack with your levels in cavalier for determining it's abilities.
So, Druid 4 + Cavalier 4 = Level 8 Horse animal companion
So, going back to the feat, what happens if you take the PackLord Druid archetype which allows you to break up your levels into multiple animal companions?
If horse master makes it so that each animal companion gets to use your full character level does this mean that now you can have 8 level 8 horses?
The "normal" line of the feat seems to indicate that you treat your cavalier level as being equal to your character level as opposed to treating every animal companion you have that counts as a "mount" as being equal to your character level.
This means that now you are Druid 4 + Cavalier 4(8) = Level 12 Horse animal companion.
If horse master makes it so that each animal companion gets to use your full character level (...)
It doesn't. Horse Master doesn't change the companion level, it sets your "effective druid level" (EDL). Normally, the two are the same, which is why the feat isn't worded more clearly, but Pack Lord differentiates between the two (it say you "divide up [your] effective druid level" to determine the different companion levels). Both use the same language and thus both use the same mechanic.
This means that now you are Druid 4 + Cavalier 4(8) = Level 12 Horse animal companion.
No. Druid levels stack with levels in another class to then calculate the EDL, they don't stack with an already calculated EDL. You can never add levels to the calculated EDL.
Normal: EDL = Cavalier level + Druid level (+ Boon Companion).
Horse Master: EDL = character level.
No. Druid levels stack with levels in another class to then calculate the EDL, they don't stack with an already calculated EDL. You can never add levels to the calculated EDL.
Normal: EDL = Cavalier level + Druid level (+ Boon Companion).
Horse Master: EDL = character level.
Except that's not how the feat is worded. Let me quote the whole thing.
Prerequisite: Expert trainer class feature, Ride 6 ranks.
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
The normal line talks about how you use your cavalier level to determine your EDL. The Benefit line talks about how you use your character level to determine your EDL. If it doesn't stack with the feat then it doesn't stack without it either. The wording between the two lines is identical swapping cavalier for character, except that the Normal Line has the word "You" at the beginning.
The normal line talks about how you use your cavalier level to determine your EDL. The Benefit line talks about how you use your character level to determine your EDL. If it doesn't stack with the feat then it doesn't stack without it either.
You're wrong because you're ignoring where the stacking comes from in the first place. The feat's normal section doesn't include any language that in itself allows stacking because the Cavalier description that it references doesn't do that, either - that's not where the stacking comes from. Druid and Cavalier levels stack because auf specific wording in the Druid description! "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics." (CRB pg. 51)
The two sentences in the feat may differ in only one word, but because class levels and character level are completely different things, they're mechanically wise very much not identical. Cavalier levels are "levels of any other classes", but the total character level is not.Of course, a feat's normal section is never rule relevant, anyway. You can remove all normal section from all feats in Pathfinder, and absolutely nothing changes.
The normal line talks about how you use your cavalier level to determine your EDL. The Benefit line talks about how you use your character level to determine your EDL. If it doesn't stack with the feat then it doesn't stack without it either.You're wrong because you're ignoring where the stacking comes from in the first place. The feat's normal section doesn't include any language that in itself allows stacking because the Cavalier description that it references doesn't do that, either - that's not where the stacking comes from. Druid and Cavalier levels stack because auf specific wording in the Druid description! "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics." (CRB pg. 51)
The two sentences in the feat may differ in only one word, but because class levels and character level are completely different things, they're mechanically wise very much not identical. Cavalier levels are "levels of any other classes", but the total character level is not.Of course, a feat's normal section is never rule relevant, anyway. You can remove all normal section from all feats in Pathfinder, and absolutely nothing changes.
I can't speak for what the wording in the CRB is. However, the wording on Nethys (which is considered an official source) is different than what you've quoted.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.
This doesn't call out class levels, it just calls out source. The horsemaster feat is a source of an animal companion and it states that sources that grant animal companions stack with druid for purposes of determining the abilities of your animal companion.
This is weak logic cheese at its worst. No wonder people started playing 5E to escape this crap.
It's clearly 8 not 12.
is it?
Let me alter the situation just slightly. Assume a Druid 4, Cavalier 4 and they have the following feats. Horse Lord and Boon Companion. For their Druid levels they have chosen a hawk and for their Cavalier levels they have chosen a horse.
Our 8th level character should have an 8th level horse and an 8th level hawk. They have a total of 16 "effective druid levels" even though they are only an 8th level character.
I can't speak for what the wording in the CRB is.
*blink blink* I quoted it. You have the relevant sentence right in front of you. Alternatively, look here (right under the table).
What you quoted is part of the Nature Bond description, what I quoted is part of the animal companion description. Both are equally part of the RAW, and thus both must be heeded.
I can't speak for what the wording in the CRB is.*blink blink* I quoted it. You have the relevant sentence right in front of you. Alternatively, look here (right under the table).
What you quoted is part of the Nature Bond description, what I quoted is part of the animal companion description. Both are equally part of the RAW, and thus both must be heeded.
I see. you said I should look at the "specific wording in the Druid description" and so I went to the druid class description and could not find the line that you quoted. Instead I found what I quoted.
The wording under the table does seem to indicate something quite different than what is stated in the druid description. For example, going just by the line you quoted A druid 4, ranger 4 would have an animal companion that is level 8. Since a 4th level ranger is entitled to an animal companion. Additionally, if we take both statements to be true simultaneously then we end up double dipping. Our druid 4, ranger 4 would have an effective druid level of 5. Then we go to the table and add in the ranger levels again as it's a class that is entitled to an animal companion in addition to your druid levels which have already been calculated to be 5. As a result our ranger, druid has an animal companion as per what's found on the table at level 9. At the very least you end up with contradictory answers for our druid 4, ranger 4 forcing you to pick one and ignore the other.
The only way I can reconcile the two statements to make sense is if we treat one of them as merely reminder text. Since the statement in the druid description is a more encompassing statement it wouldn't make sense to treat it as reminder text.
You may be thinking of Oracle. They have a FCB that can make their companion revelation higher than their level.
You're right. An oracle with a revelation that gives an animal companion (Like Lunar: Primal companion or Nature: Bonded mount) and is either an Elf, Aasimar, Ifrit or Sylph can add 1/6th of a level as favorite class bonus to that revelation... getting a higher druid level for an animal companion once every 6 levels.
...
Does that mean a level 18 Ifrit Oracle can have a level 21 animal companion?
Do animal companions surpass 20?
You may be thinking of Oracle. They have a FCB that can make their companion revelation higher than their level.You're right. An oracle with a revelation that gives an animal companion (Like Lunar: Primal companion or Nature: Bonded mount) and is either an Elf, Aasimar, Ifrit or Sylph can add 1/6th of a level as favorite class bonus to that revelation... getting a higher druid level for an animal companion once every 6 levels.
...
Does that mean a level 18 Ifrit Oracle can have a level 21 animal companion?
Do animal companions surpass 20?
While it's not covered explicitly by the rules we are given an indication of how it should be handled. The primary limit is that an animal companion can not have more HD than it's master's level +1. So, even if at 10th level you had a 20th level companion it would only have the stats of a 13th level animal companion.
As for surpassing 20th level. It's a DM call, but we are provided with guidelines for what post 20 levels should look like.
The wording under the table does seem to indicate something quite different than what is stated in the druid description. For example, going just by the line you quoted A druid 4, ranger 4 would have an animal companion that is level 8. Since a 4th level ranger is entitled to an animal companion. Additionally, if we take both statements to be true simultaneously then we end up double dipping. Our druid 4, ranger 4 would have an effective druid level of 5. Then we go to the table and add in the ranger levels again as it's a class that is entitled to an animal companion in addition to your druid levels which have already been calculated to be 5. As a result our ranger, druid has an animal companion as per what's found on the table at level 9. At the very least you end up with contradictory answers for our druid 4, ranger 4 forcing you to pick one and ignore the other.
The only way I can reconcile the two statements to make sense is if we treat one of them as merely reminder text.
No offense meant, but are you trying to use the most narrowminded, literal/technical, common-sense-ignoring interpretation possible? Because that's honestly what it looks like. You're interpreting it like a computer program and not like a human being.
The game is written for humans, not computers.
Here's the anwer to all your question: The two sentences are different parts of the same rule! That basic concept removes all issues you think to have found.
There is no double dipping because there is only one rule. The second part merely expands upon the first part, it is neither reminder text nor does it overwrite the first part. The first part says "her effective druid levels stack", the second part says "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes", if we combine both, we end up with "effective druid levels from levels of any other classes".
Which... makes sense and solves everything.
No offense meant, but are you trying to use the most narrowminded, literal/technical, common-sense-ignoring interpretation possible? Because that's honestly what it looks like. You're interpreting it like a computer program and not like a human being.
The game is written for humans, not computers.
Here's the anwer to all your question: The two sentences are different parts of the same rule! That basic concept removes all issues you think to have found.
There is no double dipping because there is only one rule. The second part merely expands upon the first part, it is neither reminder text nor does it overwrite the first part. The first part says "her effective druid levels stack", the second part says "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes", if we combine both, we end up with "effective druid levels from levels of any other classes".Which... makes sense and solves everything.
No offense taken, I'm keeping everything as focused as you are. You are the one who narrowed things to only mean class levels and not take into account effective druid levels from sources that are not from class levels. A common sense reading of both rules is that you sum your effective druid levels from all sources and use that number to determine the abilities of your animal companion. It makes sense and solves everything.
Ok, I was hoping to stay out of this increasingly heated argument...
but here goes... my two cents.
Argument 1:
This means that now you are Druid 4 + Cavalier 4(8) = Level 12 Horse animal companion.
I'll have to pick Derklord's side on this one. When you calculate your effective druid level, you either use the normal method of using Druid + Cavalier... which is 8. Or you use the Horsemaster's feat... which says druid level = character level... which is also 8. You take the higher of the 2. (but they're both 8)
Argument 2:
So, going back to the feat, what happens if you take the PackLord Druid archetype which allows you to break up your levels into multiple animal companions?
If horse master makes it so that each animal companion gets to use your full character level does this mean that now you can have 8 level 8 horses?
I'm going to have to meet you halfway here. The horselord applies to only the Cavalier's mount. Although this is an animal companion that can also get druid levels from the actual druid class, it is a specific animal companion under the Cavalier. Furthermore, the Cavalier is no Packlord. He cannot devide his mount, so you have one level 8 mount.
However... The druid is a packlord, and can choose not to add his druid levels to the Cavalier's mount. The Horselord feat will not apply to other companions than the mount, meaning the first horse will still be level 8, dispite not getting druid levels from the druid because of the horselord... But the druid can add other animal companions beside the mount.
So on Druid (Packlord) 4 / Cavalier 4;
1 level 8 Horse (mount)
4 level 1 other animal companions of any kind
Argument 3:
Let me alter the situation just slightly. Assume a Druid 4, Cavalier 4 and they have the following feats. Horse Lord and Boon Companion. For their Druid levels they have chosen a hawk and for their Cavalier levels they have chosen a horse.
Our 8th level character should have an 8th level horse and an 8th level hawk. They have a total of 16 "effective druid levels" even though they are only an 8th level character.
See my answer on Argument 2... yes this would work (on a Packlord druid).
But I'll suggest taking druid levels only after this, because the hawk can't benefit from boon companion more than once... (boon companion feats can be taken more than once, but must be applied on different animal companions every time, it doesn't stack on the same one)Sidenote: aside from the packlord druid, though... a normal druid does not have the choice to use druid levels for other animal companions than one he already has. So a normal druid will have to add those levels to the Cavalier's mount.
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Argument 1:
This means that now you are Druid 4 + Cavalier 4(8) = Level 12 Horse animal companion.I'll have to pick Derklord's side on this one. When you calculate your effective druid level, you either use the normal method of using Druid + Cavalier... which is 8. Or you use the Horsemaster's feat... which says druid level = character level... which is also 8. You take the higher of the 2. (but they're both 8)
Any of you noticed that there is an infinite loop here if you use that reasoning?
1) Use your character level (8) to get your animal companion level;
2) Add your druid level (+4), now your AC level is determined as if your character level was 12;
3) Your character level and your modified character level to determine your AC abilities are different, but 1) require that they are equal. Horse Master reset your equivalent druid level to 8;
4) Your druid level is added again, restarting the cycle.
Or you can use a bit of logic and accept that Horse Mastery changes the previous rules and set a specific value to determine your AC companion, without anithing added to it.
3) Your character level and your modified character level to determine your AC abilities are different, but 1) require that they are equal. Horse Master reset your equivalent druid level to 8;
This step would also cause horse master to over-ride any other feats/abilities that increase your effective druid level. Such as the Huntmaster feat and the aforementioned Oracle FCB. In fact because horsemaster doesn't get a choice a cavalier 6 with both Horsemaster and Huntmaster would have an animal companion that only counts as level 6. Which is terrible for the cavalier wanting to multi-class into say fighter.
You are the one who narrowed things to only mean class levels and not take into account effective druid levels from sources that are not from class levels.
Of course I don't, because those don't fall under "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics." Things only stack if something explicitly allows them to stack, and only things that qualify for both parts of the Druid Animal Companion stacking rule are eligible for stacking. Any other interpretation ignores part of the rules.
This step would also cause horse master to over-ride any other feats/abilities that increase your effective druid level. (...) Which is terrible for the cavalier wanting to multi-class into say fighter.
Why?
You are the one who narrowed things to only mean class levels and not take into account effective druid levels from sources that are not from class levels.Of course I don't, because those don't fall under "The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics." Things only stack if something explicitly allows them to stack, and only things that qualify for both parts of the Druid Animal Companion stacking rule are eligible for stacking. Any other interpretation ignores part of the rules.
yes, your interpretation ignores the rules in the druid description which explicitly allows effective druid levels from other sources to stack with levels of druid.
Rule A says X things stack
Rule B says Y things stack
Y happens to be a subset of X. If something is part of category X Rule A says that it stacks. Just because Rule B says Y things stack it doesn't mean that other things don't also stack. It makes no ruling on things that aren't part of Y with regard to stacking.
This step would also cause horse master to over-ride any other feats/abilities that increase your effective druid level. (...) Which is terrible for the cavalier wanting to multi-class into say fighter.Why?
Well, the argument is that horselord sets the animal companion's level to be equal to your character level. Your character level is not affected by things like the oracle FCB nor the huntsman feat. If you are 8th level your character level is 8 and this value is taken to become your effective druid level that is compared against the table.
In my example the cavalier's character level is 6 and so their animal companion would get set to be equal to 6th level.
edit: looking at them again, to be fair they are not worded quite the same. the oracle ability clearly references your oracle class level as being higher. Whereas the feat doesn't specify if it's refrencing your class level or character level. There is a suggestion that it's talking about your class level as it talks about class features in the benefits section. But it is not explicitly stated if it means class level or not.
yes, your interpretation ignores the rules in the druid description which explicitly allows effective druid levels from other sources to stack with levels of druid.
Seriously? There are two sentences that talk about stacking, applying both counts as "ignores the rules"?
Are you f*&*ing kidding me? You are the one who constantly tries to ignore part of the rules. You are the one making up some "subset" or "reminder text" stuff without any foundation for that in the rules. You haven't yet posted an intepretation that doesn't completly rests on you ignoring one of the two sentences that govern stacking.
In my example the cavalier's character level is 6 and so their animal companion would get set to be equal to 6th level.
And if you multiclass into Fighter, it will increase. A Cavalier 6/Fighter 10 with Horse Master has an EDL of 16. What's so horrible about that?
Such as the Huntmaster feat
That was the one I was thinking of earlier. Thanks, it was a racial feat... not a racial trait...
yes, your interpretation ignores the rules in the druid description which explicitly allows effective druid levels from other sources to stack with levels of druid.Seriously? There are two sentences that talk about stacking, applying both counts as "ignores the rules"?
Are you f@~@ing kidding me? You are the one who constantly tries to ignore part of the rules. You are the one making up some "subset" or "reminder text" stuff without any foundation for that in the rules. You haven't yet posted an intepretation that doesn't completly rests on you ignoring one of the two sentences that govern stacking.
yes, you do seem to keep ignoring it and I have tried to explain the disconnect multiple ways.
Lets pull the two specific sentences and put them side by side. We both agree that both statements are applicable to stacking.
If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.
The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
That's it those are the two statements.
We even agree that the 2nd statement actually means
The druid's class levels stack with the effective druid levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
We both agree that this means a Druid (4), Cavalier (4) would (without the application of any other feats, abilities, FCB, etc.) have a level 8 animal companion because it's 4 levels of druid plus 4 effective levels of druid from cavalier.
Now, are the 4 levels of cavalier a source that grants the character an animal companion?
I believe we agree that yes cavalier is a source that grants the character an animal companion. This means that both sentences agree that Druid (4), Cavalier (4) would result in a level 8 animal companion.
The only disagreement we seem to have is what happens when a source grants an animal companion that is not from a class.
Is this true? if it isn't then the disagreement we seem to be having is something deeper.
In my example the cavalier's character level is 6 and so their animal companion would get set to be equal to 6th level.And if you multiclass into Fighter, it will increase. A Cavalier 6/Fighter 10 with Horse Master has an EDL of 16. What's so horrible about that?
Well, they've wasted a feat that should be making it 17 instead of 16 which is Horrible IMO. As I was talking about a Mutli-class Fighter/Cavalier who has both horsemaster and huntmaster.
yes, your interpretation ignores the rules in the druid description which explicitly allows effective druid levels from other sources to stack with levels of druid.
Rule A says X things stack
Rule B says Y things stack
Y happens to be a subset of X. If something is part of category X Rule A says that it stacks. Just because Rule B says Y things stack it doesn't mean that other things don't also stack. It makes no ruling on things that aren't part of Y with regard to stacking.
As a rule, when two rules provide differing outcomes on the same function, the specific rule always trumps the general rule. In this case, the general rule is the rule found under the animal companion table. In general, your levels in all classes that provide an animal companion stack to determine the strength and abilities of your animal companion. The specific rule is found under each class that provides an animal companion's class feature. For Druid's this is that your effective druid levels from other classes that grant an animal companion stack to determine the strength and abilities of your animal companion. Rangers & Animal Domain Clerics the specific rule is that their effective druid level for determining the strength and abilities of their animal companion is their Ranger/Cleric level -3. For Cavalier's and Paladin's the specific rule is that their EDL only stacks with other classes that grant animal companions IFF their chosen animal companion is a valid choice for their mount (and subsequently IS their mount).
The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
General rule, levels in all classes that grant animal companions stack. Pretty simple, all encompassing, and above all general.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.
The first part of this establishes that the animal companion's levels are directly linked to the druid's levels in the druid class. The second part establishes the specific rule that all effective druid levels stack when determining the strength of your animal companion, this overrides the general rule from the animal companion entry. Now, notice that it doesn't say "stack with your actual druid levels." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to extrapolate the simple fact that actual druid levels are also effective druid levels. A level 6 druid is not only ACTUALLY a level 6 druid, but is also EFFECTIVELY a level 6 druid.
The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the companion’s statistics and abilities.
Part one, establishes your effective druid levels from Hunter are equal to your class levels in Hunter. The next part restates the same specific stacking mechanic from the Druid's Nature Bond.
This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3.
A Ranger's Hunter's Bond directs you to the Druid's Animal companion entry (Nature Bond) for rules on how the animal companion functions. It then proceeds to set a specific rule that your EDL as a Ranger is equal to you Ranger class levels -3. This again overrides the general rule from the animal companion entry.
Your effective druid level for this animal companion is equal to your cleric level – 3. (Druids who take this ability through their nature bond class feature use their druid level – 3 to determine the abilities of their animal companions).
Just like the Ranger the Cleric (as well as anyone else getting Animal Companion via Animal Domain, including actual Druids) also has a specific rule regarding their EDL.
This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. This mount may come from the following list:
Medium Cavaliers: Axe Beak, Camel, Elk, Giraffe, Horse, Seahorse, Giant, Tortoise, Giant, Zebra
Small Cavaliers: Antelope, Boar (requires 4th level), Capybara, Dog (requires 4th level), Kangaroo, Lizard (Giant Gecko), Pony, Ram, Reindeer, Stag, Weasel, Giant, Wolf, WolfdogThe GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
Once again, EDL determined by class level. Added specific rule limiting choices of animal companions to a select group that can make for suitable mounts.
This mount may come from the following list:
Medium Paladins: Camel, Elk, Giraffe, Horse, Seahorse, Giant, Yak, Zebra
Small Paladins: Antelope, Boar, Capybara, Dog, Eohippus, Pony, Ram, Reindeer, Stag, Weasel, Giant, WolfdogThis mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level.
Just like the cavalier, except with an even more restrictive selection.
Note, these all call out CLASS LEVELS. Now lets look at feats that grant a bonus to EDL....
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you dismiss or lose an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you can apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You can select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
A strict reading of this feat actually has some rather unintended benefits for characters who are multiclassing into multiple Animal companion granting classes... Since the wording actually adds +4 to the level of any class that is granting you an animal companion when determining your EDL (so long as you have the same exact Animal Companion from all classes), and not to your total EDL... but it does restrict your total EDL to your character level still... but because of this wording, technically 1 level in 4 different classes that grant an animal companion at level 1 would net you an EDL of 20 allowing you to take 16 levels in whatever else you wanted... (RAW, this is how it works... RAI, this is totally NOT how it works... RAI your total EDL is at +4 up to a maximum of your character level.)
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
This feat sets your EDL to your character level, it creates a new specific rule that trumps all other more general rules for determining your EDL. A character with the Horse Master feat has a total EDL equal to their character level. The normal section simply outlines how a cavalier normally determines their EDL as a cavalier.
Benefit: If you have the animal companion class feature, pick one of the following types of animal companions that this feat affects: bird, dog, small cat, or horse. If you have the divine bond (mount) or mount class feature, this feat always affects horses.
You gain a +2 bonus on Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature) checks with creatures of that type of animal. Furthermore, you are treated as one level higher when determining the abilities of your animal companion or mount, as long as it is of the chosen type.
Plane and simple, +1 to your level when determining your animal companions abilities... and the wording on it doesn't actually conflict with Horse Master or Boon Companion either, you get that +1 regardless... "you are treated as if you were one level higher"... So if your a level 6 Ranger with Boon Companion, you are treated as a Level 7 character and get the abilities of a level 7 animal companion, if the same character didn't have boon companion they would have the animal companion of a level 7 ranger, which is EDL 3. Similarly a Cavalier4/Fighter7 with Horsemaster and Huntmaster would have a mount as a level 12 cavalier. Huntmaster doesn't actually directly touch your EDL nor does it directly touch your class levels that grant animal companion...
I largely agree with everything you said Chell.
The only point that I don't follow is this overwhelming belief that horsemaster negates druid levels that would normally stack. I can not find any examples of this happening with animal companions. Even the Fiendish Obedience for Baphomet[Sentinel] (which is basically a feat that grants an animal companion) calls out that the animal companion gained is in addition to any that you might already possess (IOW that it doesn't stack).
Horsemaster doesn't state that you only use your character level to determine your effective druid level. Even by your own argument I when I combine horsemaster with huntmaster I get to add them together.
I largely agree with everything you said Chell.
The only point that I don't follow is this overwhelming belief that horsemaster negates druid levels that would normally stack. I can not find any examples of this happening with animal companions. Even the Fiendish Obedience for Baphomet[Sentinel] (which is basically a feat that grants an animal companion) calls out that the animal companion gained is in addition to any that you might already possess (IOW that it doesn't stack).
Druid levels stack with other class levels that grant animal companions or mounts. They don't stack with character levels.
Horse Master causes your mount EDL to be set to your character level.
I largely agree with everything you said Chell.
The only point that I don't follow is this overwhelming belief that horsemaster negates druid levels that would normally stack. I can not find any examples of this happening with animal companions. Even the Fiendish Obedience for Baphomet[Sentinel] (which is basically a feat that grants an animal companion) calls out that the animal companion gained is in addition to any that you might already possess (IOW that it doesn't stack).
Horsemaster doesn't state that you only use your character level to determine your effective druid level. Even by your own argument I when I combine horsemaster with huntmaster I get to add them together.
Except that it really does... "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount." Your EDL is equal to your Character level is what that means... it doesn't say "use your character level in place of your cavalier level" no it simply says use your character level to determine your EDL. Your actual druid levels are still a part of your EDL, this is why the druid's nature bond does NOT say that your EDL stacks with your Druid levels, because your druid levels are a part of your EDL and all of your EDLs stack. Horse Master changes this as it directly makes your EDL equal to your Character level. There is no additional stacking to be had with that. The ONLY extra EDL you can get ontop of Horse Master is from Huntmaster which treats you as one level higher all together for determining your animal companion's strength and abilities.
Druid levels stack with other class levels that grant animal companions or mounts.I largely agree with everything you said Chell.
The only point that I don't follow is this overwhelming belief that horsemaster negates druid levels that would normally stack. I can not find any examples of this happening with animal companions. Even the Fiendish Obedience for Baphomet[Sentinel] (which is basically a feat that grants an animal companion) calls out that the animal companion gained is in addition to any that you might already possess (IOW that it doesn't stack).
True
They don't stack with character levels.
False, there is no rule that states this.
Horse Master causes your mount EDL to be set to your character level.
Also false for reasons given above at length.
Except that it really does... "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount." Your EDL is equal to your Character level is what that means... it doesn't say "use your character level in place of your cavalier level"
If you read the benefit line and the normal line together this is exactly what it indicates. As the two lines are identical except the word cavalier is replaced with the word character.
Consider the following
Benefit: Add up all apples to determine how full a basket is.
Normal: You add up all red apples to determine how full a basket is.
The thing is, we can also have loaves of bread and we are told that when we have loaves of bread we add these to other things found in the basket to figure out how full it is. Clearly the two statements above mean that you add up all the apples instead of just adding up the red ones. In either case if you also have loaves of bread, these also need to be added in order to determine the final value of how many items are in the basket.
Except that it really does... "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount." Your EDL is equal to your Character level is what that means... it doesn't say "use your character level in place of your cavalier level"If you read the benefit line and the normal line together this is exactly what it indicates. As the two lines are identical except the word cavalier is replaced with the word character.
The Normal Line has absolutely zero effect on how a feat functions. The Normal Line in feats exist to provide a quick reminder of how a feature being modified by a feat normally functions. The normal for Horse Master calls out Cavalier for the simple reason that you MUST be a cavalier of at least level 4 to even take the feat in the first place since that is the ONLY way to get the Expert Trainer class feature.
Feats are summarized on Table: Feats below. Note that the prerequisites and benefits of the feats on this table are abbreviated for ease of reference. See the feats description for full details.
The following format is used for all feat descriptions.
Feat Name: The feat's name also indicates what subcategory, if any, the feat belongs to, and is followed by a basic description of what the feat does.
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Normal: What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.
Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat.
Again, the NORMAL line does NOT modify in any way shape or form the benefit of the feat. It simply acts to remind you what is NORMAL functionality without the feat.
Chell Raighn, you covered it all... except the Packlord Druid in conjunction with the Cavalier with Horsemaster.
Although I think I know what your ruling is going to be, considering so far it seems we drew the same conclusions...
Chell Raighn, you covered it all... except the Packlord Druid in conjunction with the Cavalier with Horsemaster.
Although I think I know what your ruling is going to be, considering so far it seems we drew the same conclusions...
Pack Lord Druid/Packmaster Hunter with Horsemaster is indeed an odd circumstance... and one I can't really give a good answer on... on one-hand if one of their animal companions from pack lord is also their mount, then their total EDL is split between all of their animal companions... but on the other-hand if their mount is not one of their animal companions from packlord, then Horsemaster gives them a full character level EDL for their mount and only their mount.
Example:
Pack Lord Druid6/Cavalier4 with Horsemaster, takes 2 Horses as their animal companions and counts one of them as their mount when they take their first level of Cavalier (or count their mount as one of their druid animal companions when they take their first level of druid) they have an EDL of 10 that is split between their companions. Both could be EDL8, one could be EDL 9 while the other is EDL 1, however they wish to divide it, but the total between the two will always be 10.
If the same character instead took for example 2 saber-tooth cats as their druid's animal companions and a horse as their mount, they would have an EDL 10 mount, but only have an EDL of 6 to split between their two saber-tooth cats...
Do I think it should work this way? No... of course not... the second option shouldn't get more power simply by choosing NOT to count their mount as one of their druid animal companions... in the first example, both animal companions remain relatively equal in strength if their EDL is split optimally. However, in the 2nd example, they get 1 full strength companion AND two additional compaions that are only slightly behind in power... in both examples they can minimize the lost strength with two instances of Boon Companion, once for each animal companion (the mount in example 2 never benefits from boon companion)... yet one is clearly more powerful than the other... RAW, it works this way... RAI, it probably doesn't work this way.... what exactly the RAI in this situation should be, I have no earthly idea... because Pack Lord/Packmaster just mucks with everything when multiclassed with a Cavalier who has taken Horsemaster...
I agree that it doesn't make sense that forcing a non-stacking situation would result in more total effective druid levels to work with. I disagree that the issue is exclusive to a pack lord druid though. A normal druid that picks an animal that is an ineligible choice as a cavalier mount, prior to taking any levels in cavalier, would create the same situation.
I agree that it doesn't make sense that forcing a non-stacking situation would result in more total effective druid levels to work with. I disagree that the issue is exclusive to a pack lord druid though. A normal druid that picks an animal that is an ineligible choice as a cavalier mount, prior to taking any levels in cavalier, would create the same situation.
This is true... it isn’t exclusive to pack lord Druids... however it does become more readily apparent with pack lords, simply because a pack lord will always have more than one animal companion... ultimately this problem comes down to GM’s call as to how to deal with the clear imbalance...
My bad, you're absolutely right, according to this FAQ:
FAQ source
Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)