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Recently played a scenario over Roll20/Discord where we had Iseph as the 4th character (who I ran so the GM didn't have to).
Despite myself and the GM explaining that Iseph is non-binary, and requesting that everyone use gender neutral pronouns, one player went out of his way to refer to them as "him", and was unapologetic about it as we both continued to remind him. I'm unsure how the GM personally felt, but for me the awkwardness only progressed to helpless frustration as the scenario continued.
Slip-ups happen, especially in this alien setting, but intentional misgendering is a form of sexism. The fact that this happened to be an NPC doesn't matter; the same would be true of an all-male table making sexist comments about a female NPC. You don't have to be a member of the targeted group to feel uncomfortable at the behavior.
At an actual table you can emphasize the seriousness of the matter via body language, eye contact, using the midpoint break to have a conversation, or taking them aside after the game and explaining how their behavior made you feel. None of that is really available over Discord. I'm not sure if I'll ever game with this person again given the vastness of remote play.
In preparing for this post, I found that the word "gender" only comes up twice in the Version 2 Guide, and they're both in the same sentence:
"Inappropriate conduct includes, but is not limited to, the excessive use of foul language, physical or verbal aggression or intimidation, lewd conduct, inappropriate physical contact, unwelcome sexual attention, slander, stalking, and harassment or discrimination based on gender, gender identity and expression, age, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, or religion."
In a setting where there's a race with 7 genders, as well as Shirren, Androids, Astrazoans and others, I think it would be important to add a statement to the Guide addressing misgendering specifically, since someone who is unaware of the matter may read the above disclaimer and not realize it's an issue.
Anybody have any thoughts on how to better address misgendering in Society? This company and this setting are ahead of the curve when it comes to addressing social issues and embracing diversity, so I have no qualms there. And I do have to say that the majority of tables I've been at were generally understanding, but perhaps that's what made this recent encounter so much more jarring.
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I unintentionally misgendered people--both strangers and people I know well--in person in clear binary groups that I wonder if I have an actual neurological disorder, but that's not what you're getting at. I have unintentionally and intermittently misgendered a non-binary player at my table and apologized for the mistake with a simple "Sorry, they" and continue on, but that's not what you're getting at, either. I have unintentionally misgendered by using the player's gender and did not apologize but merely made a mental note to try to remember next time.
I think there are a couple of issues to iron out:
1. Regulating intention. Perhaps it was overt that the player was intentionally misgendering the NPC in your case, not enough details to assess. But I can certainly imagine where unintentional misgendering is interpreted as intentional both live and remote.
2. NPCs/PCs/SF with non-binary genders are not necessarily the people with non-binary genders. The impetus to change one's habit is lower, for good or ill, when the offense is toward a fictional situation.
So if you have someone calling a maraquoi "he" or "she," who otherwise addresses the players respectfully and with the correct genders, how much of an issue should you make out of it during the session and how much can/should OP regulate it.
Venture-Agent, Netherlands
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So if you have someone calling a maraquoi "he" or "she," who otherwise addresses the players respectfully and with the correct genders, how much of an issue should you make out of it during the session and how much can/should OP regulate it.
Yeah, a side note to this, as I have a player who plays a Maraquoi and is the gender that does nothing but stands there, but is needed to be there otherwise stuff doesn't happen. They always state at the start that they don't care what they are called, he/she/it/other/hey you etc.
But it is fully stated to everyone and they understand. We have people who forget (I mean people still say Pathfinders when they mean Starfinders) but I agree, if it's intentional, that's not really ok. But how much can/should we do?
Looking for guidance in case it ever happens to me as well.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Mostly posting to mark this thread because I want to follow it - I just recently had a lengthy conversation about non-binary genders in rpg's with a friend, and I'm curious about this as well.
Anybody have any thoughts on how to better address misgendering in Society?
The most practical advice so far was to pick up the habit of asking players to state their character's preferred pronouns at the start of the game, even when you are playing with a group that is (seemingly) binary (even with all male group playing all male PC's), to reinforce and emphasize the fact that pronouns matter, and we should strive to honor them.
In a virtual game, editing your name to "Nuri (AC20) (They/Them/She)" is helpful, in IRL game you could make a small character tent for your PC with the pronounce.That's mostly on how to avoid misgendering, though. I have to admit that I'd be somewhat at a loss should a player start clearly and intentionally misgendering fellow PC's or players - mostly because I'm a straight cis male in a country where gendered pronouns don't exist to begin with (and so I sometimes struggle with them when playing with english speakers online) - I probably don't really comprehend how important this issue may be to some of our players, and would really appreciate thoughts and input on the matter.
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I'm a straight cis male in a country where gendered pronouns don't exist to begin with (and so I sometimes struggle with them when playing with english speakers online) - I probably don't really comprehend how important this issue may be to some of our players
Thank you for bringing that up. I suppose it is entirely possible this player could have experience originating from a part of the world where awareness of gendering is minimal.
I like the usage of pronouns in your handle. I will start doing that.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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In person, I ask for pronouns on my table tents. But I am starting to think that I need to do what Doug Hahn does with his slideshows in PBP -- ask for those preferred pronouns when collecting reporting information, and then put them on the slideshow on a character reference slide!
Asking for character pronouns as a GM is polite, and creates a safe space. In Discord and Roll20, we can change character names to include them. Making them visible makes it easier for everyone to keep track.
As an aside, asking for pronouns in other situations can help open conversations, and will lead to some surprises. I did it as an experiment two years ago with a pre-pubescent Bookclub, and found that two thirds of the kids in there emphatically chose 'they/them' for themselves. It was an eye-opener for me, and has reiterated how important this conversation can be.
It's an even easier conversation to have in Starfinder with many races not even having binary gender.
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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It takes practice. It sure felt awkward the first time I did it. The trick is to ask for it like it's no big deal.
"Hey, can you change your names in Discord and Roll 20 to that of your characters, and include your characters' pronouns? It's easier for me to track."
This conversation made me realize that I need to extend to online what I was doing in person. We learn in baby steps. I'm just grateful as a GM that I can learn something new everyday to improve my table experience.
Hmm
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I don't think I've seen a they pronoun as an identifier come up outside of gaming with paizo.
Whereas I see it frequently in seminars and training sessions, both at non-profit and for-profit businesses, in the Great Lakes area of the US.
Continued misgendering, whether intentional or not, falls under the "verbal aggression" clause from my perspective.
It's similar to someone continuing to mispronounce an unfamiliar name, in a lot of respects. It's not the stumbling attempts that improve with usage that are the problem. It's the disregard and diminishing of someone whose name you can't be bothered to learn to pronounce correctly. Who is so far beneath you in the social hierarchy that their name is insignificant.
I sometimes misgender friends whom I've known a long time. I apologize and put extra mental effort into not making that mistake again. Since intentions are impossible to measure, I can only be judged by my actual behavior. It really doesn't matter what my intentions are if my behavior is visibly and continually irritating to those around me.
Managing your emotions (including indifference to someone's preferred pronouns) is a social skill we expect from all players. Anger that is mismanaged results in removal from the game. Indifference that is mismanaged might also be reason for removal.
Recently on these boards I've seen several instances of people who are angry about the change from "race" to "ancestry" make posts with the sly "race, oops, I mean ancestry" included. On a message board where your words can be edited to not include those kinds of verbal slips, leaving them in the post is a deliberate provocation. I've started calling it out for the verbal harassment that it is.
Continual misgendering falls into the same bucket of verbal bullying.
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Based on the description, IMO this is less an issue about engendering and more of an issue of a player just being a jerk. Whether it be gender pronouns, proper names, use of a phobic creature, certain themes, etc. if a player(s) expresses to another that something bothers them and they basically ignore it and continue, they are breaking the behavior rules. The game should be stopped until they agree to correct the behavior or kick them from the table. Simple. If the guilty party feels the request is unreasonable, put it to a table vote and go with the results. If anyone is still unhappy, then leave the game. Again, simple.
OTOH (and this is controversial) if you express your unhappiness with another player's behavior, they persist, and you just continue to accept it, then it seems it wasn't that big a deal for you to begin with. Maybe its just me, but if I objected to someone's behavior enough to express it and they continued to do it, I would interrupt the action and either insist they correct it, or one of us needs to leave. Or course, YMMV
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Whereas I see it frequently in seminars and training sessions, both at non-profit and for-profit businesses, in the Great Lakes area of the US.
I don't think that the HR department of a large corporation is the best comparison for the mixed nuts of the player pool or the DM pool, which comes from all walks of life from places accross the country and around the world.
Continued misgendering, whether intentional or not, falls under the "verbal aggression" clause from my perspective.
No.
Bullying and aggression are active, deliberate acts. Unintentional slights are not. Someone can be hurt if I push them over or bump into them and knock them over on accident, but they're not the same thing.
It's similar to someone continuing to mispronounce an unfamiliar name, in a lot of respects. It's not the stumbling attempts that improve with usage that are the problem.
People are distracted during a game, especially when running it. Paying attention to the adventure, loading 400 pages of rules and erratta into your brain, sorting things on the 3 roll 20 layers and fixing macros etc. takes up a lot of ram.
I once had a DM that kept messing up the name of a character named ...Mom. Reading disregarding and diminishing of a person so far beneath you in the social hierarchy is a completely random leap of logic.
This is why even people that want to avoid harm get nervous around this topic. You have the thing that's going on, and then you have the literary interpretation of whats going on. That second part is really hard to see from the outside.
Managing your emotions (including indifference to someone's preferred pronouns) is a social skill we expect from all players. Anger that is mismanaged results in removal from the game. Indifference that is mismanaged might also be reason for removal.
Except you don't accidentally punch people.
Geeks have a not un earned reputation for having poor social skills. Its the dichotomy of the hobby: a social game for asocial people. I don't think its reasonable to expect upper management at work levels of behavior from people gathering around to relax an play a game about shooting orcs with a laser rocket. Given how common misgendering on accident is in a role playing game I think you're looking at removing 90% of the players, at which point you don't have a game any more. You can expect a good faith effort, but the expectations for the results need to be tempered.
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I don't think that the HR department of a large corporation is the best comparison for the mixed nuts of the player pool or the DM pool, which comes from all walks of life from places accross the country and around the world.
Sorry that you missed the "non-profit" part of that sentence.
I work with neighborhood groups in low income parts of the county. I work with predominantly Black churches and predominantly white churches. I work with activist groups advocating for major changes. I work with activist groups working for reforms. I work with unions.I'm seeing the use of they/them across all of these groups. Not just rpg groups. Not just large corporations.
Reading disregarding and diminishing of a person so far beneath you in the social hierarchy is a completely random leap of logic.
Not random at all. I've been in homes where the gardener was always call 'Jose', no matter what his real name was because, as the family told me, 'can't keep all those names straight, it's easier just to call them 'Jose'.
Geeks have a not un earned reputation for having poor social skills. Its the dichotomy of the hobby: a social game for asocial people. .... I think you're looking at removing 90% of the players, at which point you don't have a game any more.
The logic of "geeks don't have social skills, so they shouldn't be expected to learn them" escapes me.
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No.
Bullying and aggression are active, deliberate acts. Unintentional slights are not. Someone can be hurt if I push them over or bump into them and knock them over on accident, but they're not the same thing.
Yes, actually. Bullying doesn't require the Bully to realise they are being a Bully. You can absolutely hurt someone's feelings and cause harm, without intending it.
(I would argue that, once the Bully is made aware of their bullying, if they continue to bully, that makes them actually evil. If they apologise and stop, then they are, you know, a fallible human who is growing and learning.)
I'd also like to catch the notion that "RPGs are a fun release and escape from everyday life" and run with it a bit: put yourself in the position of someone who maybe isn't cisgender. Maybe they're struggling with being misgendered in their everyday life nonstop, and struggling to keep it together. They come home, and get ready to relax and unwind with some mindless Starfinder, where they don't have to worry about other people scrutinising their genitals and how they interact with their gender, because, hell, there's that species with 7-genders, and multiple species with no gender, and everything in between, so who cares, right? In space, no one can hear you scream cares what bathroom you use.
But once you get into the VTT, someone at the table keeps using the wrong pronouns for your made-up fantasy android. You've been keeping it together all day long, and now your relax, your escape, your time away from all of that, is suddenly full of misgendering, too.
That's not good for the player, the community, or Paizo's mission to make the game open and inclusive.
So, please, don't imply that "people don't need to be so careful with pronouns when they're playing a silly game with orcs and lasers."
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Sorry that you missed the "non-profit" part of that sentence.
Non profit and small aren't the same thing. The Nature conservancy has a billion dollar budget for example.
Not random at all. I've been in homes where the gardener was always call 'Jose', no matter what his real name was because, as the family told me, 'can't keep all those names straight, it's easier just to call them 'Jose'.
And because you've seen that once, everyone doing the same thing MUST have the same reason for doing it?
No. This is absolutely nonsensical. People have bad days at work. People have good days at the bar. People get distracted (sometimes both..) Peoples brains just derp.
To go from this person keeps messing up my name to "disregard and diminishing of someone whose name you can't be bothered to learn to pronounce correctly. Who is so far beneath you in the social hierarchy that their name is insignificant." is absolutely nonsensical. I cannot trust any judgement someone that would automatically connect the two. I could not have made a parody of the curtains were blue that blatant on my most cynical day.
The logic of "geeks don't have social skills, so they shouldn't be expected to learn them" escapes me.
Geeks don't have social skills and don't pick up on social rules quickly, or at all
Along comes the social justice movement looking for a high level of care and attention to be paid to something people do reflexively (insert a pronoun into a sentence). This is a new rule for a lot of geeks, and its not a rule some areas have much if any experience with it.
So why would you expect a high level of proficiency on the matter to people who are both new and not proficient?
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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BNW, you and I are coming out of similar generations. I acknowledge that learning this has been an adjustment. We were raised our entire lives in a binary social construct only to find out that our social construct doesn't fully reflect all the parts of a very fluid gender spectrum. So here's how I proceed. I offer my pronouns -- they're even on a pin that I wear to work. I ask people theirs. In Starfinder, I ask it of their characters because we're in a world with entire agender and non-binary races.
It's just one tiny part of the set-up period. You don't have to lecture people or have a public service announcement. The first time will feel awkward. But then you'll get used to it, and it will be no different than asking someone for their faction. We make these things normal through practice. It's a small thing that will mean little to some of your players, and great deal to other of your players.
We learn, and we go on, and we have our game. I don't expect a high level of proficiency.
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Regarding the player who was intentionally misgendering -- I would take them aside during a break and try to explain that they are denying someone's character concept, and I would ask them to stop. This doesn't just happen with non-binary characters. It happens a lot with players playing a character whose gender is very different from their own. Women have their male characters perceived as female, and the same with men playing women. If it happens repeatedly, it's a downer for the player.
So my steps:
1) Make pronouns more obvious (table tents, Discord names, etc.) This makes it easier to avoid unintentional gaffes.
2) Gentle correction & reminders
If that doesn't work, then it's time to have a longer talk with the player, or the VOs if the player is belligerent.
(I generally speaking assume well-meaning intent at first. We all make mistakes on this. If your intent is respectful, acknowledge your mistake, correct it and move on.)
Hmm
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Yes, actually. Bullying doesn't require the Bully to realise they are being a Bully. You can absolutely hurt someone's feelings and cause harm, without intending it.
That isn't Bullying, the same way bumping into someone and knocking them down on accident isn't usually assault. I didn't say that someone wasn't hurt, I said it's not a crime and it's NOT the same thing.
You seem to be trying to make the perceptions of one person the only thing that matters and that's never a tenable standard: because there's always more than one person in a social interaction.
But once you get into the VTT, someone at the table keeps using the wrong pronouns for your made-up fantasy android. You've been keeping it together all day long, and now your relax, your escape, your time away from all of that, is suddenly full of misgendering, too.
That's not good for the player, the community, or Paizo's mission to make the game open and inclusive.
Either is getting in peoples face about what terrible bullies they are, what horrible people they are, and how saying x means Y or Ruttebegga.
Throwing people out for misgendering on accident is going to cost you a lot of the player base. Probably most of it. No player base, no games.
If you tell people they are terrible horrible people for misgendering they might believe you... and either avoid all games, or public games, or maybe just you (to avoid hurting your feelings). This has gamers avoiding gamers, forming cliques, and splintering off into subgroups.
More likely, when you call someone a smurf they decide no, you're the smurf.
So, please, don't imply that "people don't need to be so careful with pronouns when they're playing a silly game with orcs and lasers."
If you're not quoting me please don't put it in quotes. You're taking a sliding scale and making it binary.
Your group of gamers at a game are not the board of a liberal charity or corporation meeting at work in a board room. Expecting one to be like the other isn't realistic. No. People are not going to be AS careful playing a game with orcs and lasers AS a board room at work.
Not making an effort to avoid misgendering isn't fair to you. But expecting 6 other people to ratchet up their self awareness to a fun sponging straight jacket levels isn't fair to them either.(and probably still wouldn't fully work) You should expect a reasonable effort. You can expect a reasonable amount of progress. What those look like is sometimes hard to tell, but its not going to be 100% accuracy.
These are new rules for a lot of people, and they're new rules that people do not interact with on a regular basis. You're trying to change a reflexive, automatic thing that people do without thinking about it and that is not easy and its not happening over night.
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While I would like to make a point about perception and barriers to communication in addition to moderating one's response, I found this and think it is more important to the discussion:
What TO do if you misgender someone
Strategies for when you misgender someone
Calm your defenses: If you catch yourself misgendering someone, pause and take a breath.
Apologize: You should apologize as soon as you’re able to calmly. Tell the person you just misgendered that you’re sorry. Some ways to do this are: “I’m sorry for misgendering you, X”, “Oh! I remember your pronouns are Y, sorry about that.”
Express Gratitude: If the person you misgendered corrects you, express gratitude for their effort. Similarly, if someone else witnesses the misgendering and corrects you, thank that person for pointing it out to you.
Do Better: After the interaction, you should spend some time asking yourself how you can work to make sure you don’t do this again. Everyone learns differently so figure out what will work for you: Do you need to practice out loud? Write it out? Try to refer to the person by their name until you are better about their pronouns.
What NOT to do if you misgender someone
Don’t make this about you: While inadvertent, misgendering adversely impacts others so we want to make sure you’re able to focus on the person you’ve misgendered and not make this dynamic about you.
Don’t draw attention to the mistake: After misgendering someone, you should try not to draw a lot of attention to what occurred. Whenever I am misgendered, I feel a range of emotions but largely embarrassed so I hope to correct what has happened as quickly as possible. It is additionally mortifying if the person who misgendered me or others spend a lot of time on what just happened and make it the focus of our time together.
Don’t deflect or trivialize: As difficult as being misgendered is, it makes it additionally harmful when the person or people deflect accountability by saying things like, “Oh, I don’t think they meant to misgender you in a bad way,” “They/them pronouns are unusual,” “I’m working on it but it is going to take me a long time,” “I’m just going to keep making mistakes.”
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@BNW:
This "they" thing is new for me too, and it's really far weirder if English isn't your first language. But right now you are arguing the case of someone who's misgendering by accident, but the premise of this thread was:
Despite myself and the GM explaining that Iseph is non-binary, and requesting that everyone use gender neutral pronouns, one player went out of his way to refer to them as "him", and was unapologetic about it as we both continued to remind him. I'm unsure how the GM personally felt, but for me the awkwardness only progressed to helpless frustration as the scenario continued.
At that point we're shifting from clueless to rude.
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<I had to interrupt my thought because of unruly toddlers.>
Intent can be obvious, but more often it is difficult to assess. Our individual perception of intent is influenced by our implicit bias. We assume that the other person knows how we are feeling, understands the impact of their action on us. We assume that we know what the other person is thinking and feeling.
It is better to begin a conversation like this with the assumption that an offender is naive.
Use this discussion to workshop constructive ways (example) to make your space inclusive, for moderating the occurrence when it happens, and for exploring ways to improve our own behaviors.
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(N)either is getting in peoples face about what terrible bullies they are, what horrible people they are, and how saying x means Y or Ruttebegga.
Throwing people out for misgendering on accident is going to cost you a lot of the player base. Probably most of it. No player base, no games.
That's a fair point - anyone who's been in any of the games I've GM'd knows I cannot for the life of me keep Ziggy's pronouns correct (since they're a host shirren, it's they/them, right?) I think the important thing is a willingness to be open-minded, admit you made a mistake (even if unintentional) and learn. I'm going to apologise, especially if someone calls me out on it, and keep doing my best to stop using he/him for Ziggy and Iseph, and being more aware of pronouns in general.
The keyword here, as Lau and TwilightKnight point out, is "accidental." I don't think anyone in this thread is saying we adopt a zero-tolerance "eject everyone who calls Iseph a 'he,' even once, even by accident" stance. Rather: how can we constructively move ahead in a table situation where a player is repeatedly and intentionally using the wrong pronouns, after it's been explained that that is incorrect, and (more importantly) harmful?
Misgendering aside - I personally want to say I didn't mean to imply you're a terrible bully / ruttebegga. You're easily my favourite canid/apocalypse harbinger on these fora (sorry, Doomsday_Chupacabra.) So: my apologies if I gave you offense.
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I'm going to apologise, especially if someone calls me out on it, and keep doing my best to stop using he/him for Ziggy and Iseph, and being more aware of pronouns in general.
I want to bring up a point. It is easily one of the least important points but still a point. We are not locked into the pregens gender or personal back story (and I'm certain many have never read them). If I feel more comfortable playing a he/him Keskodai or a he/him Iseph or a he/him Navasi, that is my prerogative. It is not the same as misgendering. If I need to use a pregen and want to play an operative, I am not required to try to portray a gender that I do not feel adequate to the task of portraying.
I used to not have an issue doing so and enjoyed trying to imagine how my character's different perspectives might influence my character's decisions but discussions on this board demonstrated to me that benign intent is not always sufficient to make others comfortable.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The "they" pronoun is a bit tricky if English is not your first language, but with time I am sure that it will sound more and more natural.
The request to play a pregen with a different name and gender is not super common but it sometimes comes up, usually when a male presenting player asks for it (though considering the quota of female players in our hobby that does not surprise me and to be honest a lot of female presenting players usually choose the pregen they like the look of - nothing wrong with that. I handed out a lot of Swashbuckler and Hunter pregens in PFS1 and it was usually a great fit). There could be a host of reasons for this, though I generally do not ask why a player is not comfortable with playing a character with different gender identity.
Without going too deep into the subject, respecting the wishes of another player can of how their character wishes to be addressed, that is not really a political issue, it is just common courtesy.
I totally admit, that I sometimes make mistakes GMing online, my ears are not in the best state and sometimes I really can't tell you the apparent portrayed gender of a person in voice chat, and of course, if the gender expression/identity of player and character are different I sometimes say the wrong pronoun.
Happened to me not too long ago, the player was playing a delightful character following a deity I really like and character illustration was somewhat androgenous, while the character presented as male.
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At this point I am not convinced that we have to upgrade the guide, some part of me feels like the current wording about is sufficient, though I have to admit that I am likely missing some of the finer linguistical points, and I have not been keeping up with the current scientific literature on the subject.
If you feel like someone is behaving in a way that you perceive as problematic, try to approach the issue at an opportune time, and if that does not work, avoid playing with that person.
Should that be a local problem, you might have to talk to the local organizer/VO, or just avoid that location.
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This is a very serious issue that many communities have struggled with; as we play more frequently with people from different belief systems and backgrounds during the COVID era, it's even more important to communicate the values of PFS.
And it's really not that hard to address when you run games:
Time for character intros! Along with a description, please note your character's pronoun so we're sure how to refer to them.
No need to lecture or make a public service announcement. Just say a couple of words.
At in-person events, I write the PC's pronoun on index cards along with any other notes. I share a character reference journal entry on roll20 when I gm there. When I GM a play by post, I do like Hmm mentioned and provide space for the player to note their character's pronoun on the character reference page (and I also ask players to put the PC's pronoun in their tagline). Table tents can also be a great option if you have the capacity to bring more supplies.
A couple of other points:
1. This is a cultural problem that can be solved on the community level with consistency. Ask for pronouns at every single game you run. If a player makes a mistake, correct them. Soon, you will see fellow players or the GM correct them politely — not the person whose character is being misgendered (if the victim is always the one who has to fix the problem, that's not good). It's as simple as one player saying "she —" and the other player interjecting "— him."
2. Honest mistakes happen but the end result is still pain and frustration for the person whose character is being misgendered. Honest mistakes still need to be rectified because the net-net is continued painful experiences for the victim. (Yes, a PC's pronouns are important to many players!)
3. The "I don't care about my character's pronouns" response is not appropriate. Pronouns are a serious issue and as a GM/player/VO you need to let the player know that. Pronouns should be gotten correct for everyone; it's not only a matter of fundamental respect but an element of good narrative storytelling.
4. It's usually not a great idea to foist pronouns on players — some people do not want to be "outed" in a public venue at a table with strangers; this can also result in forced closeting. Keep the focus on the PCs, but if a player does note their pronoun make sure to support that as needed. (I don't think anyone here mentioned this specifically, but it bears mention.)
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When it happens consistently on accident it's going to be break time (and I can assure you that the person whose PC is being misgendered is frustrated/hurt and needs a break too — we sure do spend a lot of time focusing on the offender's emotions in these discussions, but not much on the victim's), and have a discussion with the player in private. It doesn't have to be a lecture about culture or ethics; just say "Look. I understand it might be challenging, but it's making our game hard. Can you try to get Iseph's pronoun right?" Hop over into another channel on Discord if you must. Just get it done.
If a player willfully and consistently misgenders an NPC or PC after warnings/discussion over break, I will remove them from the table. THEY are the ones who should be removed or asked not to go back to a location because THEY are breaking PFS community rules, NOT the victim.
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I'm going to apologise, especially if someone calls me out on it, and keep doing my best to stop using he/him for Ziggy and Iseph, and being more aware of pronouns in general.I want to bring up a point. It is easily one of the least important points but still a point. We are not locked into the pregens gender or personal back story (and I'm certain many have never read them). If I feel more comfortable playing a he/him Keskodai or a he/him Iseph or a he/him Navasi, that is my prerogative. It is not the same as misgendering. If I need to use a pregen and want to play an operative, I am not required to try to portray a gender that I do not feel adequate to the task of portraying.
I used to not have an issue doing so and enjoyed trying to imagine how my character's different perspectives might influence my character's decisions but discussions on this board demonstrated to me that benign intent is not always sufficient to make others comfortable.
That's an interesting point I hadn't considered or heard before. I know PCs can freely switch gender identities between adventures. Can we as GMs present well-known NPCs as other genders?
Intentionally erasing an Iconic's identity doesn't seem right to me, either. It'd be like having someone grab Merisiel, but then declare that they're going to play her as straight because they're uncomfortable with her otherwise.
(not the same, I should note, if a random walk-in grabbed Merisiel without knowing her backstory and had her flirting with every male she came across)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I'm going to apologise, especially if someone calls me out on it, and keep doing my best to stop using he/him for Ziggy and Iseph, and being more aware of pronouns in general.I want to bring up a point. It is easily one of the least important points but still a point. We are not locked into the pregens gender or personal back story (and I'm certain many have never read them). If I feel more comfortable playing a he/him Keskodai or a he/him Iseph or a he/him Navasi, that is my prerogative. It is not the same as misgendering. If I need to use a pregen and want to play an operative, I am not required to try to portray a gender that I do not feel adequate to the task of portraying.
I used to not have an issue doing so and enjoyed trying to imagine how my character's different perspectives might influence my character's decisions but discussions on this board demonstrated to me that benign intent is not always sufficient to make others comfortable.
That's an interesting point I hadn't considered or heard before. I know PCs can freely switch gender identities between adventures. Can we as GMs present well-known NPCs as other genders?
Intentionally erasing an Iconic's identity doesn't seem right to me, either. It'd be like having someone grab Merisiel, but then declare that they're going to play her as straight because they're uncomfortable with her otherwise.
(not the same, I should note, if a random walk-in grabbed Merisiel without knowing her backstory and had her flirting with every male she came across)
I would not worry too much about this kind of stuff, it is usually the right approach to give someone who is deciding if this hobby is for them as much space as they need.
If that means that they want to play a certain class or type of character, but feel uneasy about portraying a certain character's gender identity or other factor, I think that's fine.Consider this situation, a young male presenting player comes to your table and asks you if it is okay if he can play a female version of Valeros, there might be a host of reasons about that, and these days the ability to portray yourself as someone with a different gender can be a rare thing.
Just to give some example and what might be going on in some player'S heads who are asking for a change like this:
- stupid jokes: Yes there is a low number of players that will use this to be unpleasant, and in some cases problematic towards other players at the table - we deal with that as we always deal with this kind of behavior.
- exploring another perspective: Sometimes players just want to try something new, maybe they tried playing a female character in their home group, but had a really bad experience with that (that BS happened to my, including getting drunk and pregnant - teenagers are idiots and yes that is color my perspective here) so they want to try it different settings with strangers. Trying something new with strangers is can be much easier than with the people that have known you for years or decades.
- exploration of some feelings: Feeling different (and that includes a host of things from that deviate from "normal", like being gay, or trans...) can be rough, particularly if you are not super confident about talking about this kind of things with those around you, who might judge you for being different. Getting to a gaming table where others might know your first name, can be liberating, and allow you to voice some feelings and try some things that would be normally be something you might not dare to do. Starting with a pregen of a different gender identity can be a good start to test the waters if you are going to get any stupid comments are strange looks.
I really do not want to speak for anyone else, this is a great hobby, and while you likely can do similar things in a host of games online, the collaborative experience of playing this game with strangers can be a great experience, and while the choice of authors about their characters and who they represent matter - real people do matter a lot more.
Of course, there will always be situations where, due to lack of communication skills someone is offended if this happens, even though everyone involved might have sympathy for each other's feelings, unfortunately, that is not something we can prevent 100% of the time.
I apologize if that kinda sidetracked the discussion, but I have some strong feelings on the matter, but let me end with an actual positive story from a gaming table:
A couple of years ago, I was running a table of the PFS1 scenario The Commencement for a couple of teens, somewhere around 14-16 years old, all presenting as male, they went through my binder of pregens (I think I had CRB, APG and ACG at that time and I vividly remember talking with some players how excited we were for the kinetics since we all liked Avatar the Last Airbender) and they had all chosen pregens, when we were about to start, one of the players noticed that the entire group had chosen female pregens - expect the one player playing the iconic Ninja but I corrected him quickly.
And you know the wonderful things was - absolutely nobody cared , it was the most normal thing in the world. The kids had a good time and of course "the confirmation thing" happened ^^.
Honestly good experiences like this are why I am a big fan of doing a lot of public tables and to try to GM for as many players as I can, new players have the most amazing ability to surprise you.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I have not been keeping up with the current scientific literature on the subject.This is really just about social acceptance, awareness and engagement. No scientific knowledge required.
Our German lawmakers are currently considering removing the term "race" and replacing it with something like ancestry in parts of our basic constitutional law.
The reasons I have heard for doing so included that the word "race" is being used by some pretty unpleasant folks (nazis and their kind) to discriminate, and that science has proven that humanity is not split up into different races.
(2) Men and women shall have equal rights. The state shall promote the actual implementation of equal rights for women and men and take steps to eliminate disadvantages that now exist.
(3) No person shall be favored or disfavored because of sex, parentage, race, language, homeland and origin, faith, or religious or political opinions. No person shall be disfavored because of disability.]
Back when that law was written Germany understood all too well what horrific things can happen if you split up people into higher and lower races - so that law was written in the spirit of making a statement against those kinds of horrific things.
So they are now discussing, if the current protections are sufficient, or if it makes sense to update the law to stay closer to the authorial intent in the year 2020.
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So I'll discuss this a little, as a non-binary trans person...
I've been misgendered at gaming tables before. My characters have also been misgendered. The latter is a lot easier to deal with. I'm serious there - if I say "Actually, Captain Fuzzifuzz is 'she'", most players will quickly adjust - or at least, attempt to adjust. There's still the occasional "and then he can... sorry, she... can" moment, but those are very distinct accidents and not something I let worry me.
The bigger problem I've had is in playing non-binary characters in fantasy games. It seems that in sci-fi, people are more willing to suspend their disbelief in terms of genders, what with it being a setting that's full of weird alien races, but less so when I'm playing an elf in a fantasy setting. I've had a few "Yeah, but what gender is she REALLY?" questions here and there, and that's... y'know, it's kinda funny that a lot of cis people can grasp non-binary genders easier if they think about non-binary people like me as if we're weird aliens from another planet, eh?
And of course, the biggest problem is people misgendering ME at the table. Now here's the thing - I've noticed that this varies a lot between different games. I guess that's because different games draw in different audiences, and different types of people. On the whole, Pathfinder/Starfinder players are pretty good at making a point to remember. Sometimes if I'm at a convention I'll set a little note card with such details for the players - "I am Alison Cybe (they/them) and I am playing Captain Fuzzifuzz (she/her)", that kinda thing. Like I said, a lot of SFS/PFS players are generally really good for that, and slip-ups tend (in my experience, at least) to be accidental. For other games that I've played, and I won't name them here, you can kinda tell that it's deliberate.
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EDIT: @Sebastian Hirsch
Indeed! "Race" is just another social construct that groups people by shared physical traits.
I enjoy movies and TV series where aliens and humans share society together, because they can demonstrate in easy-to-digest examples that even if two species shared 0% of their genes, everyone is still entitled to the same basic civil rights.
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Intentionally erasing an Iconic's identity doesn't seem right to me, either. It'd be like having someone grab Merisiel, but then declare that they're going to play her as straight because they're uncomfortable with her otherwise.
Is it not my prerogative to role play a straight male elf rogue because I do not feel adequate to portraying a female, let alone a lesbian? Would you feel any differently if I was a non-binary player wanted to play Valeros non-binary because I felt inadequate portraying a straight male? I don’t believe you should. A player should be able to play the character they feel comfortable with. Players have no control over the identity and backstory of a pregen and should not be excluded from playing a given class because they want to portray a different identity than the author wrote for a common use pregen. That they are new or experienced has no bearing. That they know the background or not has no bearing (I’m nearly 4 GenCons experienced and couldn’t reliably tell you the pregen genders).
I would put forth that forcing a player to play a gender they did not choose is as abusive as other forms of harassment (and you may be doing more harm than you know). Remember that your thoughts and feelings about your own gender are not necessarily the same thoughts and feelings in another person about their own gender.
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How often would pronouns come up anyway in a gaming session?
If you are addressing the person, the correct pronoun is "you" regardless of gender.
If you are talking about the person, wouldn't you normally use the character's name?
I remember in a game a decade ago being mistaken about the gender of another PC for several months, but the lack of occasion to use a 3rd person pronoun for a PC hid that error.
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Jeeze, people are making this iconics "problem" a LOT more complex than it needs to be and distracting from the core issue at hand.
Don't want to roleplay the character? Don't roleplay the character.
If you are not comfortable using key elements of an iconic's story or identity (of which pronouns are an important part), make up your own character and just use the sheet for the mechanical stuff. You don't have to erase Isaph's identity or be forced into inhabiting a space you aren't comfortable with because do don;t have to be Iseph.
This is the same concept as changing a pregen's backstory, like making Kyra a worshiper of another deity because you want to flavor it as somethign new. That's perfectly fine, but that's not Kyra. You should call that character another name because otherwise, it'll throw the whole table off.
Again: when the GM provides space to designate character pronouns you can signal your intentions here respectfully and clearly:
HI everyone! I'm using Iseph's iconic character sheet but am flavoring the character as Markus, a character concept I've had in my head for a while. His pronouns are he/him.
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@David knott 242: This is probably a "least bad" stopgap, but awkwardly avoiding pronouns is also hurtful to people, and it becomes obvious if you're doing it for a single character or person.
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Indifference that is mismanaged might also be reason for removalThis might be a minor point, but what does this mean? How do you mismanage indifference? Since when is it a bannable offense for me to not call out someone for behavior that might offend someone else?
By that I mean indifference from the person doing the misgendering, not the other players at the table.
The "What difference does it make what gender I use, it's just a game" response to requests to stop misgendering a character.
Not support, not obvious hostility, just... indifference to someone else's discomfort.
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How often would pronouns come up anyway in a gaming session?
Kinda a lot actually. It's part of just the regular day-to-day language for the most part.
GM: "Okay, so on this turn of combat, everyone please tell me what you want your characters to do."
Player 1: "Transgirl's character is injured. I want to cast a healing spell on him. Then I'll move behind the rocks over there."
GM: "Cool cool, he gains twelve hit points."
Transgirl: "Thanks, but she's..."
Player 2: "I'm going to move between Transgirl's character and the enemy and hold my action. When they shoot at him, I'll return fire."
Transgirl: "I appreciate that, but she's a girl, not..."
Player 3: "Transgirl, can your character lend mine a grenade?"
Transgirl: "Sure."
Player 3: "Thanks. My character takes the grenade from him, and..."
Transgirl: "Her"
Player 3: "throws it at the enemy."
GM: "Nice, that hits, twelve points of damage. Transgirl, what do you do?"
Transgirl: "I move out of cover and take a shot. *Rolls* Nice, I think that hits? Twelve damage."
GM: "Nicely done. So, your character runs out, shooting as he goes. As he rounds the corner, the shot hits his enemy straight in the head."
Transgirl: "That... that's like three times you just said he. Please, could you..."
Player 1: "Geez, you're so over-sensitive!"
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1. This is a cultural problem that can be solved on the community level with consistency. Ask for pronouns at every single game you run.
I'd really. Really rather not have that conversation every time.
If a player raises an issue directly or indirectly (table tent, roll20 icon ) I will attempt to honor their wishes to the best of my ability. But lots of players have lots of things going on and we don't go down a check list to address all of them.
No need to lecture or make a public service announcement. Just say a couple of words.
If you are used to working that request into the introductions in San Fransisco, great. But the entirety of organized play is not San Fransisco. This is not a conversation people are used to having everywhere. Coming from people that don't do this regularly and don't have as much invested in the topic it's going to sound artificial, stilted, and forced. Yes. Even just a "couple of words". Even if they're the right words. You're asking for a bluff check from people that don't feel as strongly about the issue as you do and even some people that are against the issue.
as we play more frequently with people from different belief systems and backgrounds during the COVID era, it's even more important to communicate the values of PFS.
And this is where I think a lot of the resistance comes for me. I don't like being prodded or poked into overtly spreading a social message that isn't an issue for me, I 'm not qualified to talk about, don't really have any feelings for, and don't feel comfortable discussing.
2. Honest mistakes happen but the end result is still pain and frustration for the person whose character is being misgendered. Honest mistakes still need to be rectified because the net-net is continued painful experiences for the victim. (Yes, a PC's pronouns are important to many players!)
There was an old game show (I couldn't find the name of it) and one of the games was to read the word Cat with a picture of a Dog and then go the other way and say it was a picture of a cat with the word Dog on it.
Despite being the only thing they were focusing on, with a picture/word in front of them, this was often harder than the final question on jeopardy. Looking at one thing and thinking another is surprisingly hard for people to do.
So when I'm playing one of my female ysoki (one of whom wears a giant pink ribbon on her tail because humans care but are terrible at telling) the other players have been told there's a female rat, but there's a 6 foot three pile of beard sitting at the table (or geek vader talking over the mic). That messes up most of the people some of time and some of the people most of the time.
It's not a net net gain. There is a cost and benefit to it. The cost of trying to hammer the characters gender home is stopping the game to make the correction and (at some point) probably annoying the person making the error or making them feel bad. The benefit is supposed to be a decreased number of mistakes with people for whom it is an issue. Given how common the mistakes are and how reflexive and unconscious putting a pronoun into a sentence is I'm a little skeptical of how effective calling people out on it is at increasing proficieny. A time or two definitely, if you can work it into an in character action maybe. (I know humans are bad at telling but this is a full on Lolita dress, come on here...) But there is very likely a point of diminishing returns and increasing costs.
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BigNorseWolf,
Correct pronouns are simply a matter of rudimentary respect and narrative storytelling. It doesn't matter whether it's SF or anywhere else in the world.
If pronouns are an issue at your tables or in your Org Play community, then GMs should adopt tools to address those problems. Saying a dozen words and providing space to designate pronouns isn't difficult.
I do not think anyone is advocating "hammering the characters gender home," they just want a minimum level of basic respect while they're at a table.
Personally, I'm not advocating GMs proselytize; I'm suggesting that GMs can provide simple tools that help players tell a better story.
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as we play more frequently with people from different belief systems and backgrounds during the COVID era, it's even more important to communicate the values of PFS.And this is where I think a lot of the resistance comes for me. I don't like being prodded or poked into overtly spreading a social message that isn't an issue for me, I 'm not qualified to talk about, don't really have any feelings for, and don't feel comfortable discussing.
This was my original thought/response too, but as a friend explained it to me: I'm now a seasoned gamer in PFS. I know our lodge, and I play enough games online to not get stressed or anxious about playing with total strangers. I'm also one of our regular GMs.
A new(er) player does not have the same experience. They might not have the same confidence. They might not know the players or handle strangers as well as I do. They might be non-cis, and/or they might want to play characters that are non-cis. They may (probably have had) bad experiences before, they may have been threatened, discredited, made fun off, and they might not be willing to risk facing discrimination or (micro)aggression on a gaming table -just for the desire to be addressed correctly-. They might even fear that asking for pronouns or displaying theirs forces them to 'come into open'.
I don't. I literally have nothing to lose by being an ally, and by making the point of asking for the pronouns or displaying mine, I am making room for them, showing them that our society/group is inclusive, and encouraging people to be themselves instead of hiding in fear of reprisal.
I might not *personally* feel strongly about this, but I *do* want to make sure all our players feel welcome, and thus, in future games, I'll try my best to show my support for them, even if I don't know if there are any of them at the table with me.
(I'm assuming I might face objections or criticism at a table at times for asking for the pronouns, but so far I plan to respond by explaining that it's not a debate/discussion I want to hold a game up - But I'll gladly discuss the issue after the game.)
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Correct pronouns are simply a matter of rudimentary respect and narrative storytelling. It doesn't matter whether it's SF or anywhere else in the world.
Rudimentary respect will at best give a desire to get the pronouns right. It does not automatically confer the ability. Why else do you see people catching and correcting themselves? Your results depend having both.
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Rudimentary respect will at best give a desire to get the pronouns right. It does not automatically confer the ability. Why else do you see people catching and correcting themselves? Your results depend having both.Correct pronouns are simply a matter of rudimentary respect and narrative storytelling. It doesn't matter whether it's SF or anywhere else in the world.
I see. So you refuse to say a dozen words or provide simple tools because it makes you slightly uncomfortable and because you think tabletop gamers will magically self-correct. (Guess what: they don't.)
The above example from Captain Fuzzifuzz — that you favorited — is all too real and demonstrates how the issue becomes endemic if left alone. It also demonstrates how it places the burden on the PC/person being misgendered, which isn't right. It's just more BS for them to worry about and feel bad about; why would they continue coming to games?
(By the way I'm not saying EVERY community needs to do this and I'm not saying mistakes can never happen. But if it's becoming an issue you need to do SOMETHING. Don't let it alone to rot because eventually, players victimized by misgendering will stop coming to your games and stop playing PFS. It's is a fast way to end up with a homogeneous and unwelcoming community).
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Jeeze, people are making this iconics "problem" a LOT more complex than it needs to be and distracting from the core issue at hand.
Don't want to roleplay the character? Don't roleplay the character.
Intentional or not, the tone of the response that I perceive dismisses my thoughts and feelings. It makes me feel as though my participation in any part of this discussion is undesired. It invokes in me, intended or not, a painful emotional response. For me, it undercuts the previous good points made by you and undercuts the previous assertions of respect and welcomeness.
Consider that you have not assessed all possible cultural and individual considerations, for I believe there are considerations with the pregens (not the iconics), to be justified in announcing your annoyance with the subject, to mocking the subject’s consideration with quotation marks, and presenting your solution as obvious and final.
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Jeeze, people are making this iconics "problem" a LOT more complex than it needs to be and distracting from the core issue at hand.
Don't want to roleplay the character? Don't roleplay the character.
Intentional or not, the tone of the response that I perceive dismisses my thoughts and feelings. It makes me feel as though my participation in any part of this discussion is undesired. It invokes in me, intended or not, a painful emotional response. For me, it undercuts the previous good points made by you and undercuts the previous assertions of respect and welcomeness.
Consider that you have not assessed all possible cultural and individual considerations, for I believe there are considerations with the pregens (not the iconics), to be justified in announcing your annoyance with the subject, to mocking the subject’s consideration with quotation marks, and presenting your solution as obvious and final.
Your thoughts and feelings are totally valid! However, it's frustrating to see the conversation devolve into a very narrow discussion of how to play the iconics. Sorry if I sounded dismissive. You are the one who originally suggested changing backstory, and that should have been the end of the conversation because it's a perfectly reasonable solution and one I also advocate for.
However, it's important to recognize that the iconic's gender is an important part of their character. That seems to be getting lost here to an extent. I would not be comfortable with a player changing Iseph's as-written gender at a table — as a player or as a GM. It's part of who they are, just another Iconic's deity or family members or personality, etc.
The solution I offer (and always have since the 1E days) is to RP the character as your own creation. Want to play a male cleric but there's only Kyra? Play her brother, Kyle. Whatever the particular solution you choose, communication is important.
And honestly, it's really frustrating to see players treat gender as the one thing they have the right to change about an NPC; as if it's the least important part of the character. The conversation and culture of respect can begin with how we treat NPCs and pregens inside the game world.
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I see. So you refuse to say a dozen words or provide simple tools because it makes you slightly uncomfortable and
No. Because I don't think it would more good than harm when I do it . I'm not comfortable with the topic and thats going to be readily apparent when I make the statement. Rather than inviting someone to open up, I think someone would misread ambivalence and hostility and clam up.
I don't think I'm unique in that regard, and much like ancestry I'd imagine you'd get some people pushing back with snide comments or worse.The option is great for the people it works for. I don't think i'm one of those people.
because you think tabletop gamers will magically self-correct. (Guess what: they don't.)
You're the one running on the idea that a basic level of respect will be achieved and then everything else will automatically follow. It doesn't.
I think gamers given an occasional poke will slowly correct somewhat. I think gamers given too hard of a poke will poke back.
The above example from Captain Fuzzifuzz — that you favorited —
For making a good point. Even people not in total agreement can recognize when when someone has a point. (and I don't think I've disagreed with anything Fuzzi has said though I don't know if the converse is true)
is all too real and demonstrates how the issue becomes endemic if left alone. It also demonstrates how it places the burden on the PC/person being misgendered, which isn't right.
No it isn't fair. But being unfair doesn't automatically mean a fair solution exists. Running a table in those circumstances I'm pretty confident in saying I wouldn't notice the pronoun usage if it bit me on the rear end. If people don't notice it they can't react to it. People don't just immediately turn on a dime and start noticing details like that because they've been told its an issue.