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Said function is gone in PF2, right? Even for the Philosopher's Stone?
If I'm not mistaken, now only the rare Sun Orchid Elixir seems to achieve the wanted effect via alchemical means... :(
which is ridiculous considering a monk can do it
if you can reach with physical training and diets then a alchemist whose deal is to mutate and heal bodies should probably do it better
also monks can be occult so bards should be able to do it too,
hey i have an idea just give everyone a high level general feat to become immortal and everyone will be happy
The Philosopher's Stone allows you to Craft elixir of rejuvenation, which can restore life to any creature dead less than a week. As long as you have someone to administer it to you, that makes you effectively immortal.
which is ridiculous considering a monk can do it
if you can reach with physical training and diets then a alchemist whose deal is to mutate and heal bodies should probably do it better
also monks can be occult so bards should be able to do it too,
hey i have an idea just give everyone a high level general feat to become immortal and everyone will be happy
Monks and Druids both can get it. It has less to do with being Occult, seeing as Monks can be either a Divine or Occult-based in their use of Focus Spells, and more to do with how they function. A Druid just... becomes Nature. I mean, they literally have three Feats that make them either not their previous race anymore, or unaging.
A Monk does it through their impossible control over their physical and spiritual self, kind of setting up a perpetual loop of Ki inside their body that renders them functionally immortal. It’s not magic, in the sense of it being a spell, inasmuch as it is an expression of their connection to Nature in the case of a Druid, or their perfection of Self, in the case of a Monk. It’s one of the reasons Monk 20th level Feats are honestly kind of wackier than a lot of other classes.
that logic can be used for anything but ultimately its reduced to the developers don't want it
then why cant the alchemist just brew a perpetual elixir of stop aging
if the wizard has supposedly reached the apex of arcane mastery to the point where he can stop time itself, warp reality and tear gates between planes how is it he cant stop himself from aging
if the bard has such vast knowledge that he can access every spell list and replace every form of lore and even sign so well he can raise the dead how is it he cant find a way to stop his aging
if the sorcerer has reached the absolute eschatos of his bloodline how is it his undead blood doesn't make him ageless or his angelic demonic infernal etc...
ki spell can be occult spell or divine spells but they are still spells
what weird reasoning is it that dictates that a human can manipulate his own body better than medicine if that worked people would just toss all their pills into the garbage bin and just control themselves to be healthy
if you can turn yourself into a phoenix then you should be able to make yourself immortal
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At this point I think immortality would need to be a Ritual (albeit likely a Rare one). 20th level capstone abilities seem too valuable for what's more an RPing choice, plus as several have noted, it'd be odd to limit access.
The edition change made it incredibly easy for Druids and Monks (14th level for both, plus probably not stepping on the Order Anathema for the former too); the latter was extremely satisfying for my inner Wuxia fan, as eventually gaining immortality just by gaining mastery with ki(qi/chi) control is a major staple ability of the genre (particularly the higher powered ones), and a requirement if one was to act in an outright Xianxia environment.
Yet they somehow took away the privilege from 20th level Alchemists who took effort to learn how to mass produce Phil.Stones, probably for the sake of staying true to the LOCS lore. ...Oh well, at least you can still produce gold and silver regularly to buy/craft consumables more easily (please DO NOT patch this out, really)...
that logic can be used for anything but ultimately its reduced to the developers don't want it
then why cant the alchemist just brew a perpetual elixir of stop aging
if the wizard has supposedly reached the apex of arcane mastery to the point where he can stop time itself, warp reality and tear gates between planes how is it he cant stop himself from aging
if the bard has such vast knowledge that he can access every spell list and replace every form of lore and even sign so well he can raise the dead how is it he cant find a way to stop his aging
if the sorcerer has reached the absolute eschatos of his bloodline how is it his undead blood doesn't make him ageless or his angelic demonic infernal etc...
ki spell can be occult spell or divine spells but they are still spells
what weird reasoning is it that dictates that a human can manipulate his own body better than medicine if that worked people would just toss all their pills into the garbage bin and just control themselves to be healthy
if you can turn yourself into a phoenix then you should be able to make yourself immortal
Wizards and Sorcerors do, actually have a way to become immortal. So do Bards. It’s called Lichdom.
As for the ‘weird reasoning’, why does the fact that your great great great great grandfather getting it on with a tentacled monstrosity allow you to alter reality? Why does being a super nerd let you rip open the fabric of space and time? Why does singing really well let you raise the dead?
Why does having a PHD in molecular biology with another doctorate in Chemisty allow you to literally become Edward Hyde?
Oh, and before you bring your crazed hatred of divinity in seemingly any form into it, I’ll also point out that both Clerics and Champions can also become immortal with high-level Feats.
Just because something is of the fantasy genre it doesn’t excuse lack of logic consistency, if a fantasy world had teleport yet somehow nobody used it on sieges that would be stupid regardless of it being fantasy or not hence warding against teleportation are usually introduced to keep it making sense
“Why does having a PHD in molecular biology with another doctorate in Chemisty allow you to literally become Edward Hyde? ”
being a “nerd” my anti-intellectual friend does the exact same thing it does on real life it lets you exploit and twist natural proprieties of the world to do your bidding
see the electricity that keeps your screen working see the codes that allow you to type words if there were forces in reality such as the arcane power of golarion I would argue that scientists could probably do better than any wizard could
“Why does having a PHD in molecular biology with another doctorate in Chemisty allow you to literally become Edward Hyde? “
he asks well my friend its because part of the chemistry of this world involves transmutation if that propriety existed in the real world it would be available to buy on shelves already
“Wizards and Sorcerors do, actually have a way to become immortal. So do Bards. It’s called Lichdom. ”
what are even trying to get at we a discussing why the feats are not available since when do we have a lichdom feat?
Is there an explicit rule that says they can't or is this more of a why hasn't Paizo published an option for me to do this yet?
The quest for immortality is an old trope and stories abound throughout mythology about different approaches and desires. I think if a Wizard wants to do it, that can be a long term goal and discuss it with your GM. That investment may also create a deeper buy-in than "oh yeah, I picked that up last level."
No rule saying it can't be done, just no explicit option just yet. Although Wish could probably stop you from aging like the Monk feat.
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Correction. Monks still die from old age, they simply cease AGING, (the same goes for Druid) those are different things. This is how it's worked on Golarion forever and it wasn't changed with Second Ed.
That was stupid in PF1 and only made very marginal sense as a way to avoid aging penalties. ((My muscles don't atrophy, my bones don't get brittle, my brain doesn't suffer dementia, and my joints don't get stiff, but my arteries still get blocked up, for Reasons.") It was also entirely contrary to how any non-crazy person understands "aging," thus the need to redefine it in those abilities.
I assume common sense reigns in PF2 (except that aging penalties don't exist...).
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Correction. Monks still die from old age, they simply cease AGING, (the same goes for Druid) those are different things. This is how it's worked on Golarion forever and it wasn't changed with Second Ed.
i legitimately give up
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I mean, I grok what you're saying but the fact is that the team has even stepped forward on a number of occasions to indicate that characters who stop aging still die of old age, otherwise there would be potentially hundreds if not thousands of 100-7000 year old monks just chilling.
They just leave immaculate looking corpses when they die in their sleep at or around 100%ish of their max life expectancy for their Ancestry, that is unless they're a Bleachling or something.
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Druids and monks can be immortal. Some people are just getting stuck on first edition. If you stop aging, you don't die from old age. If you did, it would specify like it does in first edition. They said in first edition that bleachlings effectively have the timeless body feat, which specified they died when their time is up; in second edition it says gnomes can theoretically live forever. Second edition is getting rid of a lot of the little things like that from what I've noticed.
Correction. Monks still die from old age, they simply cease AGING, (the same goes for Druid) those are different things. This is how it's worked on Golarion forever and it wasn't changed with Second Ed.
Can you provide a source for is? The second edition feat simply says "you cease aging" with no caveats like the first edition version does.
Seriously, if all Timeless Body does is make you leave a pretty corpse, and give you either a +2 against diseases/Primal magic, or half-level Poison resistance, it’s a pretty piss-poor 14th level Feat.
Correction. Monks still die from old age, they simply cease AGING, (the same goes for Druid) those are different things. This is how it's worked on Golarion forever and it wasn't changed with Second Ed.i legitimately give up
Friend, you may wish to reconsider the aggressiveness of your tone. Your responses read like you have already decided what the right answer is and are not interested in opinions that differ from yours. You seem to take pride in being intellectual so I thought you may like to be made aware that your tone may be hindering, rather than fostering the debate, and contributing toward the frustration you are feeling.
There are a number of ways for a person to become immortal in the setting, most of which are unknown (I don't believe there is any mention yet of how either Baba Yaga, Jatembe or Aroden managed to live many centuries beyond their natural mortal spans precisely) but it's easy to imagine it may be somewhat unique to each of those legendary figures. Either way, there are no mechanical options at present to achieve any of these types of immortality including lichdom, though their may be in the future.
Druids and monks can be immortal. Some people are just getting stuck on first edition. If you stop aging, you don't die from old age. If you did, it would specify like it does in first edition. They said in first edition that bleachlings effectively have the timeless body feat, which specified they died when their time is up; in second edition it says gnomes can theoretically live forever. Second edition is getting rid of a lot of the little things like that from what I've noticed.
Technically, 1st ed gnomes also were said potentially to live forever if they could stave off the Bleaching, so I would not take this phrase as indicative of a change in the function of Timeless Body. It is true it should likely state in the feat if it does not also grant immortality, but consider that there are a number of places in the rules where clarification has been 'the ability doesn't state that it does that (even if you might assume it would be implied)' so it is possible, even reasonable, to suggest that the trope of agelessness =/= immortal lifespan could be in play here. After all, the ability does not state that the character does not ever die of old age, even if it would seem logical to conclude that they couldn't as a direct result of whatever magic or power is keeping them eternally young.
For what it's worth, though, I am a little surprised to learn that the Alchemist's philosopher's stone does not grant some means of rejuvenation, though I suppose it does make a manner of sense regarding the significance of the Sun Orchid Elixir in-setting and preserving the quest for immortality as a compelling story driver. Not that a 20th level character ability is necessarily an easy or common thing to get a hold of even for the elites of the setting.
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Seriously, if all Timeless Body does is make you leave a pretty corpse, and give you either a +2 against diseases/Primal magic, or half-level Poison resistance, it’s a pretty piss-poor 14th level Feat.
That kind of is all those feats do, though. What mechanical value would you assign immortality, per se? Or even youth, regardless of whether it modifies maximum lifespan? Unless I have missed something, there are no mechanical penalties for aging anymore, and more to the point not even really any mechanics regarding dying of old age. I believe most ancestries do mention average life span, but mechanically speaking, a character being immortal vis a vis old age has virtually no impact. This would be like suggesting that elves being able to live up to 600 years vs. goblins 60 years should be an important consideration when balancing their other abilities.
For a long time I also thought that in 1e bleachlings could live forever, but after really, really looking into it, it's not true. Trust me, I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out as being able to love forever was a big thing for me.
Edit - Haha even googling bleachling immortality, one of the first posts that's brought up is one of mine from last year trying to get a straight answer, and the reply to that post pretty definitively proving that they can die of old age
Seriously, if all Timeless Body does is make you leave a pretty corpse, and give you either a +2 against diseases/Primal magic, or half-level Poison resistance, it’s a pretty piss-poor 14th level Feat.
How is the immortal thing ever going to matter in a campaign? The main benefit of the great is the resistance and bonus to saves.
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This would be like suggesting that elves being able to live up to 600 years vs. goblins 60 years should be an important consideration when balancing their other abilities.
Funnily enough, back when Haste cost a year of one's life (so way, way back), I did factor in an elf's longevity. :)
For monks, I'd be curious to see how people feel -- should you stay agelessly young or continue to look older but maintain your youthful vigor? Both are seen in literature, comics, and movies.
I think I was watching Kung Fu panda of all things when it first hit me that a monk with timeless body could continue to grow older, but age gracefully and maintain youthful vigour, instead of simply being locked into whatever body they were when they hit level 17. It always felt weird to me that a monk's body might simply stop changing when they hit level 17, whatever age they happened to be at the time, so I found this a delightful alternative, say if you happened to be a thousand year tortoise who could still bounce off walls when the occasion called for it.
The 2e version being an optional feat and not something every high level monk necessarily has to go with I could see it going either/any way.
Well, whatever the devs' intention for Timeless Body/Nature is (though I hope it's similar to mine), I intend to treat them as immunity to death by old age (though being killed by a foreign ill intent is still very possible).
Especially for Monks, it is required to revise a "proper" high-level Wuxia (bordering on Xianxia but doesn't have to be one) environment without relying heavily on too much house rules (although I would have totally been fine with it being a 20th level feat)...
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Is literally the only reason you play this game is to be immortal? Go find a forum-based roleplay if that's all you want
Is literally the only reason you play this game is to be immortal? Go find a forum-based roleplay if that's all you want
No