Dragon78 |
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So you could have a DC 35 with that formula, that might be a little much....unless it was an artifact.
I do wish that abilities that both monsters and classes have would function the same. For example that if monsters can use a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds with no limit otherwise then the players should as well.
Sydney S. |
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All the Oozemorph Shifter needed to be an actual functioning character was the guy who wrote it to not add the overkill line of "However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body."
Dragon78 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So many things I would have liked to be done for the Shifter.
-Better base version.
-Better archetypes.
-Option to use Cha instead of Wis for AC.
-Higher claw damage.
-More natural attacks.
-More natural attack options.
-Better wild shape options.
If your going to limit your shape shifting options give them a weaker form you can change into at will. For example if you choose cat you can change into a house cat at will from level one.
Additional ability ideas.
Adaptive Immunity(Ex)- Choose one immunity from a list, you are immune for as long as you want, can change anytime as a move action.
Mystic Fang and Tooth(Su)- all natural attacks gain a +1 enhancement bonus at level 3 plus an additional bonus every 4 levels after that(Max +5 at level 19)
Minor Morphing(Su)- You can change your hair, skin, eye color and alter some physical traits at will. Grants a +3 bonus on disguise or stealth checks.
Set |
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Not so much a class/class ability but i wish dazzled was a 20% miss chance just to mirror concealment/total concealment with dazzled/blinded
Total agreement. I wanted this back when Pathfinder was first announced, for all of the conditions to be a two step sort of thing like shaken -> frightened, so that dazzled (20% miss chance) would be the first step towards blinded (50% miss chance), and then for fighters and rogues to have ways of applying those conditions in combat, allowing them to do more than just HP damage, but also serve to 'debuff' in some way.
By putting the conditions in tiers or stages, it could also make save negates spells more interesting, in that a Blindness spell could still Dazzle on a save, so the action wasn't completely wasted, even if it wasn't as good as it could have been.
Even 'conditions' like tripped could have an intermediate stage where you don't succeed in actually tripping the person, but you at least knocked them off-balance for a turn or something.
Dragon78 |
Monk AC/Class Abilities
Int based(NG, N, NE)- All knowledge skills are class skills.
Wis based(LG, LN, LE)- Heal, K(Geography), K(Nature), Survival as class skills.
Cha based(CG, CN, CE)- Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and UMD as class skills.
Yeah, Con would have been great for Shifter's AC.
Shifter AC
Con- Too awesome to gain anything.
Wis- Heal, K(Geography), K(Local), and Sense Motive as class skills.
Cha- Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise and Intimidate as class skills.
Barbarians, Brawlers, Kineticist and Vigilante using their Con mod for AC(with the dodge bonuses at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th if they don't already have it) would have been awesome.
I could see Bloodragers and Swashbucklers using Con or Cha for AC.
I could see Rangers using Con or Wis for AC.
Alchemist, Magus, Investigators and Occultist using Int for AC.
Clerics, Druids, Gunslingers, Hunters, Inquisitors, Shamans, Spiritualist, and Warpriests using Wis for AC.
Bards, Mediums, Mesmerist, Ninjas, Oracles, Skalds, and Summoners using Cha for AC.
Set |
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That the kineticist wood and void elemental defenses improved as you level like the other elements do.
That the 'eastern' elements of wood, metal and void had been further expanded upon with genies, mephits, elementals, etc. of their own. Air, earth, fire and water are cool, but they aren't the only paradigms out there. (And Golarion's cosmology isn't beholden to Greyhawks or the Realms, nor any sort of quasi or para-elemental plane business, so this would have been a perfect time to shake it up, IMO.)
That genies were more cosmopolitan and less 'Persian' in flavor on their home planes. A Djinn might appear dressed like Barbara Eden when summoned to Qadira, she'd appear quite different if summoned into Minkai, Arcadia, the Mwangi Expanse, etc.
Similarly, various cultural critters that occupy the same niche be mooshed together. There's no reason, IMO, for nature spirits to be kami, only in one specific corner of the world, and fey or elementals or genies or whatever, in other corners of the world. The name 'kami' could just be a regional name for a type of nature spirit found in Arcadia, the Mwangi Expanse, etc.
Dragon78 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wood, metal, and void element genies and elementals would have been cool.
I do wish that spontaneous full casters got spell levels at the same time as prepared casters.
I wish sorcerers got more class skills and that no class got only 2+Int skill points. Also Fighters should have perception as a class skill.
It would have been nice if the sorcerer bloodline skill was a bonus skill you got free skill ranks in based on your sorcerer level.
Also divine casters should get free ranks in knowledge religion skill based on their level in that class as well.
Set |
I wish the burn mechanic was done differently such as a point system(Con mod + 1/2 level), penalty to Str/Dex based checks(except initiative), etc.
Ditto. I cast my big super-modified blast, and it reduces me to (level) HP? FOR THE DAY? Yikes. I could see, on a bad roll to hit, or good save/resistant creature, you doing more damage *to yourself* than to the foe, and being frail and vulnerable for the rest of the day.
Although I did like the archetype that didn't use Burn. I could get behind a plan slightly better than 'throw my hit points at the enemy and hope he dies from it before I do!'
Melkiador |
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I think the summoner should have instead been two classes. One would be a pure caster, very similar to core summoner but with wizard hit die, BAB and proficiencies. The second would be a battle duo that has its own combat abilities and a few class abilities to maintain its eidolon, like it would have a channel that can only heal its eidolon and maybe itself, but it wouldn’t have outright spells.
glass |
Ditto. I cast my big super-modified blast, and it reduces me to (level) HP? FOR THE DAY? Yikes. I could see, on a bad roll to hit, or good save/resistant creature, you doing more damage *to yourself* than to the foe, and being frail and vulnerable for the rest of the day.
To level HP? By, surely?
_
glass.
JiCi |
Shifter (oh boy...)
- Give it a Flurry with the claws... or the option to properly TWF with them
- Give it the ability to "grow" a third natural weapon, like a Bite with 2 Claws
- Increase the level of Wild Shape beyond 1
- Give it the ability to mix shapes into various combinations
Kineticist
This one feels alright to me, but it could use a few tweaks.
- Make any Physical Blast reliant on Strength, or at least a choice
- Give it the ability to remove Burn with any other mean, not just rest
- Find something as a Physical Blast for Fire, as it is the ONLY element without one. I dunno, Hard Light...
- Have Acid as an Energy Blast for Earth, as it is the only element without one.
- Give it the ability to use any shape infusion for any Blast, because some Blasts have a smaller selection than others
- Give it an infusion so teh Kineticist can channel Blasts through a weapon, trading touch attacks for whatever bonuses the weapon can have.
Monk
- Ki Weapon has a standard ability, using a 1 Ki point to change a manufactured weapon,s base damage to match its unarmed strike
- Remove the speed enhancement completely... and reowkr it to have the Monk spend 1 Ki point to gain that enhancement instead.
- Make it that it can trade that extra movement speed for bonus damage, attack roll, skill, AC, whatever.
Derklord |
Shifter (oh boy...)
- Give it a Flurry with the claws... or the option to properly TWF with them
Er, what? They're natural attacks, you can already attack with both claws on the same turn. I have honestly no idea what you're talking about with either Flurry or TWF.
- Give it the ability to "grow" a third natural weapon, like a Bite with 2 Claws
Why? You'd only use it for a level or two.
I mean, I have talked at length about how badly designed Shifter is, including some ideas for fixes (with one basically being your forth item), but I really don't get the first two items.
JiCi |
JiCi wrote:Shifter (oh boy...)
- Give it a Flurry with the claws... or the option to properly TWF with themEr, what? They're natural attacks, you can already attack with both claws on the same turn. I have honestly no idea what you're talking about with either Flurry or TWF.
JiCi wrote:- Give it the ability to "grow" a third natural weapon, like a Bite with 2 ClawsWhy? You'd only use it for a level or two.
I mean, I have talked at length about how badly designed Shifter is, including some ideas for fixes (with one basically being your forth item), but I really don't get the first two items.
You know how Catfolks can use claw bracers? Give THAT to the Shifter, and have it being able to use its claws as such. For the second point, the claw/claw/bite combo should be available to the Shifter.
Derklord |
You know how Catfolks can use claw bracers? Give THAT to the Shifter, and have it being able to use its claws as such.
Presuming you mean claw blades... why? It would be a huge nerf to claws.
Do you understand how natural attacks work?
For the second point, the claw/claw/bite combo should be available to the Shifter.
Again, why? Come forth level, you're wildshaped anyway.
JiCi |
JiCi wrote:You know how Catfolks can use claw bracers? Give THAT to the Shifter, and have it being able to use its claws as such.Presuming you mean claw blades... why? It would be a huge nerf to claws.
Do you understand how natural attacks work?
JiCi wrote:For the second point, the claw/claw/bite combo should be available to the Shifter.Again, why? Come forth level, you're wildshaped anyway.
How would that be a nerf? You would go from 4 attacks (Shifter's Fury) to 7. Wild Shape does NOT progress beyond Beast Shape TWO, so no Huge or Diminutive form, or any of the extra abilities.
You can substitute a claw for another natural weapon, but you cannot ADD an extra weapon.
Derklord |
You would go from 4 attacks (Shifter's Fury) to 7. Wild Shape does NOT progress beyond Beast Shape TWO, so no Huge or Diminutive form, or any of the extra abilities.
I really don't get what you're talking about. What are you comparing? Where do the 4 and 7 attacks come from? And are you seriously talking about a Shifter not using Wild Shape?
You do know that all primary attacks are made at full BAB, right? And that with weapons, you can only have one attack at full BAB (plus Haste etc.), right?
How would that be a nerf?
A regular 1st level Shifter can make 2 attacks at full BAB. With weapons, that would require the TWF feat, and still impose a -2 penalty on attack rolls, and half strength bonus on damage rolls with one of them. Sounds like a nerf to me!
Dragon78 |
Shifter should get close to the number of attacks a monk can get plus their natural attacks should max out to 2d10 damage. Also a "Mystic Fang" ability were your natural attacks get an enhance bonus built into the class(+1 at 3rd or 4th increasing as you level maxing out to +5 by 18-20th level). Monks and brawlers should get it as well but call it Mystic Fist.
I am fine with earth Kineticist not getting an acid blast.
JiCi |
JiCi wrote:You would go from 4 attacks (Shifter's Fury) to 7. Wild Shape does NOT progress beyond Beast Shape TWO, so no Huge or Diminutive form, or any of the extra abilities.I really don't get what you're talking about. What are you comparing? Where do the 4 and 7 attacks come from? And are you seriously talking about a Shifter not using Wild Shape?
You do know that all primary attacks are made at full BAB, right? And that with weapons, you can only have one attack at full BAB (plus Haste etc.), right?
Your options are as follow:
- 2 attacks at full BAB- up to 4 attacks at a regular iterative BAB, using Shifter's Fury
- You have 2 claws, or 1 claw and 1 bite, or 1 bite and 1 tail...
- Wild Shape and Shifter's Aspect are limited in uses per day, not the claws.
JiCi wrote:How would that be a nerf?A regular 1st level Shifter can make 2 attacks at full BAB. With weapons, that would require the TWF feat, and still impose a -2 penalty on attack rolls, and half strength bonus on damage rolls with one of them. Sounds like a nerf to me!
The Shifter... has no reason to use a weapon, like none. You just said that a Shifter should use Wild Shape more often, given it another reason not to bother with weapons. So no, TWF with weapons for a Shifter isn't a good idea, unless you DON'T have the claws, like with the Elementalist Shifter archetype. Claw blades + Shifter = pretty good fighter.
Shifter should get close to the number of attacks a monk can get plus their natural attacks should max out to 2d10 damage. Also a "Mystic Fang" ability were your natural attacks get an enhance bonus built into the class(+1 at 3rd or 4th increasing as you level maxing out to +5 by 18-20th level). Monks and brawlers should get it as well but call it Mystic Fist.
The damage output for claws is fine; the limited number of attacks is not. That's my issue.
I am fine with earth Kineticist not getting an acid blast.
Here's my reasoning:
AIR has air (physical) and electricity (energy)EARTH has earth (physical) and... nothing (energy)
FIRE has... nothing (physical) and fire (energy)
WATER has water (physical) and cold (energy)
AETHER has aether (physical) and... force (energy; composite blast)
WOOD has wood (physical) and positive energy (energy)
VOID has gravity (physical) and negative energy (energy)
If EARTH had acid and FIRE had light, they would be equal to the other elements. Furthermore, some features can be applied only to one type and not the other.
JiCi |
I think the point was for the elements to be different. They don’t all have the same perks and hindrances. It’s not a bad idea by default, but it is rather hard to deliver on. I think what we got was pretty good though. I dislike burn way more than any elemental imbalances of the kineticist.
One archetype, the Elemental Annihilator, has the Devastating Infusion that only works with physical blasts, meaning that it rules OUT Fire, when of ALL elements, it's the one that strikes the most as "annihilation".
Acid is often, if not always associated with Earth, so its absence is just awkward, not to mention that some poison-related infusions could have been introduced.
Derklord |
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Shifter should get close to the number of attacks a monk can get
They do. Deinonychus aspect starts with 3, adds two more at 8th level (RAW all primary), and can gain more via Mutated Shape and Chaos Reigns. That's 7, same as a 20th level unMonk that spends a ki point. And remember, all these attacks are made at full BAB, whereas the Monk has iterative penalties on up to three of their attacks. cMonk has iterative penalties on five of their eight attacks (with ki), and an additional -2 to all attacks. Even without the feats Shifter's Fury gets them to 7 attacks, but that makes most of them secondary and thus isn't worth it.
And that's not even touching Weretouched, which can get 5 primary attacks at 4th level, and still get two more from feats.
Claw blades + Shifter = pretty good fighter.
I believe you really didn't think your idea through. Honestly, what you call "pretty good fighter" makes a worse character than a Warrior. As in the NPC class.
Your desired alteration would change absolutly nothing about that. It wouldn't make weapon based Shifter better, because weapon attacks don't have a chance to compete with the natural attacks gained from Wild Shape, not on a class with no attack or damage roll boosts and without the main benefits fo manufactured weapons (enchantment cost and two-handed damage bonus). It takes until BAB+11 until weapon based has more attacks than what a Shifter has at 1st level, and that's with some hefty penalties. TWF feats are plus one attack per feat, you can get the same from feats that grant natural attacks, only without attack roll penalties and half strength/Power Attack bonus on damage rolls.
Let's say the Shifter's 8th level. A TWF build with Improved TWF has spend two feats, and has four attacks, two at -2, two at -7. Using natural weapons, Chaos Reigns, and Oni Spirit Master the character also has spend two feats and also has four attack, but all at full BAB.
You see? You aren't getting more attacks by using weapons. You're getting the same number of attacks, only worse. Weapon based doesn't get more attacks until 11th level, at which point you have 14+ hours of WS per day - with rest, spell preperation time, and eating, that's literally all the hours of a day the party can be active.
You want a class feature that allows the Shifter to treat their claws as manufactured weapons for attacking, right? Here's the deal: There would be no situation, throughtout all levels, where it would be beneficial to use that ability!
Wild Shape and Shifter's Aspect are limited in uses per day, not the claws.
Those limited uses are hours per day equal to level+wis mod. When you get WS, you should have 6 or more hours per day. Your entire argument seems to rest on not being wildshaped, but that's simply not something that happens in actual play. You just don't have more than six fights, with more than an hour between two fights, in Pathfinder (at 4th level!). If you worry about being caught without WS up, say in an wilderness exploration campaign where you could be ambushed any second, simply take Shifter's Rush.
Set |
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Here's my reasoning:
AIR has air (physical) and electricity (energy)
EARTH has earth (physical) and... nothing (energy)
FIRE has... nothing (physical) and fire (energy)
WATER has water (physical) and cold (energy)
AETHER has aether (physical) and... force (energy; composite blast)
WOOD has wood (physical) and positive energy (energy)
VOID has gravity (physical) and negative energy (energy)
If EARTH had acid and FIRE had light, they would be equal to the other elements. Furthermore, some features can be applied only to one type and not the other.
Perhaps Earth could jazz things up by allowing for not only Bludgeonimg (boulders), Slashing (spray of jagged shards) and Piercing (stalactites) options, but other mineral-specific damage reduction-bypassing options like a spray of silver ore, cold iron shards or even an adamantine spike.
It would still keep them away from energy damage, which might not fit thematically, but give lots of DR-bypassing options.
JiCi |
JiCi wrote:Perhaps Earth could jazz things up by allowing for not only Bludgeonimg (boulders), Slashing (spray of jagged shards) and Piercing (stalactites) options, but other mineral-specific damage reduction-bypassing options like a spray of silver ore, cold iron shards or even an adamantine spike.Here's my reasoning:
AIR has air (physical) and electricity (energy)
EARTH has earth (physical) and... nothing (energy)
FIRE has... nothing (physical) and fire (energy)
WATER has water (physical) and cold (energy)
AETHER has aether (physical) and... force (energy; composite blast)
WOOD has wood (physical) and positive energy (energy)
VOID has gravity (physical) and negative energy (energy)
If EARTH had acid and FIRE had light, they would be equal to the other elements. Furthermore, some features can be applied only to one type and not the other.
We already have: Metal Composite Blast + Rare-Metal Infusion = exactly what you described ;)
It would still keep them away from energy damage, which might not fit thematically, but give lots of DR-bypassing options.
I can understand the lack of sonic energy for the Kineticist, given how rare resistance to it is, but not acid, especially since Air, Fire and Water have the option to get an energy Blast related to a common element. Acid is often paired with fire when it comes to weaknesses, and like I said, poison-related infusions could have been added. With those, you could infusion an air blast with inhaled toxins and a water blast with ingested poison.
Derklord |
Personally, I think the Shifter should have just gotten the Druid’s Wildshape.
That would have made the class even worse! You may think Druid Wild Shape is better thant Shifter's because it isn't limited, but in practise, Shifter Wild Shape is actually much better. The ability to turn into any animal is rarely relevant, as a Druid will turn into the same form pretty much every time anyway. Since most campaigns don't use aquatic combat at all, at 5th level, a Shifter who'se selected a combat form (deinonychus/tiger) and a flying form is pretty much set. Meanwhile, the individual hours thing is better than the Druid's few daily uses for a couple hours, especially when factoring in Planar Wild Shape, and the ability to pounce at 4th level is actually the biggest selling point the class has.
The Shifter's main problem is that it's too much a "Druid light". You can't fix that by making it even less distinct from a Druid!
Quixote |
On a more general note, I think that a truly well-made mechanic will speak for itself, without any framing or justification in the story.
Like a barbarian's rage or sneak attack. If you just explained the rules to someone without any narrative description, you'd still get a feel for a sort of reckless/opportunistic strategy from either of them.
All of the variations of panache, grit and ki just don't do that at all. The fact that they're all essentially the same thing with a few tweaks here and there and some different flavor thrown over the top is rather telling.
I think the gunslinger and swashbuckler could probably just be fighter archetypes that trade armor and heavy weapons for mobility and some cool abilities.
The magus and the warpriest feel like two sides of the same coin as well. Mystic warrior, etc.
The brawler feels like a monk archetype at best, if not just a specific monk build, and the oracle looks like a more interesting cleric at first, until you've seen enough of them and the curse motif becomes trite and banal instead.
Dragon78 |
The option to get a class feature from another class at level one(and maybe few more times at higher levels) would go a long way. Not ones that increase damage like rage, smite evil, sneak attack, etc. But stuff like bardic knowledge, brawler/monk unarmed strike, channel, evasion, kinetic blast, lay on hands, monk AC, shifter claws, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, etc.
Having better base saves would go a long way to get rid of the need for cloaks of resistance. Also the option to add two stat modifiers to saves would be interesting
Con + Str for Fort saves
Dex + Int for Ref saves
Wis + Cha for Will saves
I do like Corefinder's better stat progression(+1 per level).
Really wish that point buys were actually per the point, in other words 1 point per 1 stat point with the base max being 16 before racial and level mods. Max stat would be 18-20+ 1/2 level. So 15 point buy would give you 15 stat points and 20 point buy would give you 20 stat points.
So a 20 point buy could give you...
16, 16, 16, 12, 10, 10
GeraintElberion |
The shifter just needs a few tweaks:
1) count its Wisdom as 5 higher for the purpose of qualifying for wildshape feats (so druids don’t get all of the most interesting wild shape toys)
2) a combat bonus feat every three levels (just like the other martial classes)
3) barbarian speed (to make up for being melee-only)
I’d also throw in an extra 2 skill points a level because the flavour is hard to maintain without perception, survival, knowledge (nature), climb, swim, acrobatics and handle animal.
JiCi |
Many archetypes allowed other classes to have an animal companion or a familiar... yet barely any of them allowed you to have an eidolon.
Where was the option for a Wizard to have an eidolon that behave like a Golem? Where was the option for a Cleric to have an Unchained eidolon, especially when that book added outsider variations? Where was the option for a Druid to have an Unchained eidolon based on the Plant or the Fey subtype?
Speaking of that, the unchained eidolon is lacking subtypes, like Dragon, Undead, Construct and Beast. If that was the case, then:
- Necromancy-using classes/archetypes could have gotten a customizable undead minion.
- The Drake companion would have been replaced by a dragon-like eidolon.
- Alchemists and arcane spellcasters could have gotten construct eidolons, similar to the Construct Caller, which was an Unchaine Summoner archetype.
Dragon78 |
Personally a necromancy specialized Magus archetype with an undead companion(fleshy, ghost, or skeletal), channel negative energy, and gaining all necromancy spells(up to 6th level) from all classes would have been cool.
I could see Alchemist getting aberration, construct(yeah we have one version), and ooze. Maybe monstrous humanoid as a companion.
I could see a Cavalier(and Paladin) getting a dragon, griffon, and unicorn mount.
I could see the Hunter getting dragon, elemental, fey, and magical beast companions.
I agree JiCi, It would have been nice if Unchained Summoner got construct, dragon, magical beast, and undead.
Peg'giz |
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- Spellcasters needs more spells per day (or scaling cantrips or class based SLA).
Playing a wizard who can't cast anything usefull after 1-2 encounters (especially at the first levels) sucks.
- no class should only have 2+Int skillpoints (4 should be the min)
- hunter is a total waste and could be easily made a Ranger archetype
- all classes should get some "specialisation" to choose from at a specific level (like in DnD5) - maybe use the Archetypes for this
JiCi |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's another one: powers from domains, bloodlines and schools being [1d6 points of damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess] and being usable [a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier].
If they were 1) at-will and 2) scalable, that would not have broken the game. I mean, the Kineticist has the Blast, which is at will and scales with levels. The Warlock back in 3.5... was essentially the same thing. 1d6/5 levels, at-will would have been much better, especially since spellcasters NEVER have the spell equivalent of a backup weapon.
Squiggit |
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In a general sense I wish Paizo had been more willing to make more modular class options.
I feel like every time I make a new character I run into an archetype that sounds really good, until I get to some really awful trade buried in it that feels 100% unnecessary or makes it completely incompatible with some other idea and it's just kind of a huge bummer.
Or I'm making a spellcaster and I run into a bloodline/mystery/discipline/whatever that is really cool and flavorful but just has a dumpster fire of a spell list or some really awful powers that make playing it a lot more miserable.
Stuff like Bloodline Mutations (not actually archetypes but similar design space) save a lot of Bloodlines that are otherwise saddled with really bad abilities. I would have loved to see more options like that in Pathfinder for other classes, like the Psychic or Gunslinger.
I swear, if most classes were dependant on character levels, both multiclassing and prestige classing would be far less punishing...
Yeah, but that was kind of the point. In 3.5, dipping and PrCs were just how you were supposed to build characters. Pathfinder came down very hard on trying to make the 1-20 single class experience better. Though they probably overdid it.
Dragonborn3 |
Here's another one: powers from domains, bloodlines and schools being [1d6 points of damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess] and being usable [a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier].
If they were 1) at-will and 2) scalable, that would not have broken the game. I mean, the Kineticist has the Blast, which is at will and scales with levels. The Warlock back in 3.5... was essentially the same thing. 1d6/5 levels, at-will would have been much better, especially since spellcasters NEVER have the spell equivalent of a backup weapon.
They did have them at-will in the Alpha/Beta Playtests for Pathfinder Core. People complained about players burning through doors and recharging batteries.
Set |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In a general sense I wish Paizo had been more willing to make more modular class options.
Both with Prestige Classes in 3.X and Archetypes in PF, I've often loved a base idea only to be tripped up by some fiddly bit that shows up later. With a Prestige Class I could at least abandon the PrC and go back to the base class rather than eat the poison pill, but with an Archetype, I'm locked into that path and can't just 'go back to regular Cleric after Xth level.' (Even then, there were a lot of PrC I felt like were padded out with a bunch of fiddly crap, when the 'meat' of the PrC could be handled in 3 levels, and not dragged out over 10.)
What I really preferred was the idea of Substitution Levels from 3.5, where you could swap out one levels worth of a class feature for something, without being locked into a bunch of other changes that might not fit your characters theme (or benefit them mechanically).
Wizard discoveries and the various armor/weapon training swap outs in, IIRC, the Armor Master or Weapon Masters Handbooks, felt like a step in the right direction.