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While I typically haven't agreed with zimmerwald1915's narrative lately, and the rhetoric is quite inflammatory, outright dismissing what they are saying, instead of engaging with what the reasons might be for why they feel that way, certainly does not help the general positive forwarding discourse on why #Blacklivesmatter needs to be a thing.Today police are universally, without exception, the armed thugs of capital which is everywhere without exception dependent upon exploitation.No, just no
No, I’m not going to engage in conversation with someone who makes universally disgusting comments vilifying entire group of people just because they are mad at a few of them. Are some cops corrupt? Most certainly. And if what was said was “police are armed thugs” then we could all agree that the “not all” tag could reasonably be applied and therefore the statement would be arguably reasonable. However, that not what was said. “Universally, without exception” is not even close to being a reasonable statement. When someone makes such a claim (1) no, I am not going to let it stand and (2) no, I don’t owe that person anything anymore than a person who supports black lives matter owes a white supremist a general positive forwarding discourse.
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No, I’m not going to engage in conversation with someone who makes universally disgusting comments vilifying entire group of people just because they are mad at a few of them. Are some cops corrupt? Most certainly. And if what was said was “police are armed thugs” then we could all agree that the “not all” tag could reasonably be applied and therefore the statement would be arguably reasonable. However, that not what was said. “Universally, without exception” is not even close to being a reasonable statement. When someone makes such a claim (1) no, I am not going to let it stand and (2) no, I don’t owe that person anything anymore than a person who supports black lives matter owes a white supremist a general positive forwarding discourse.While I typically haven't agreed with zimmerwald1915's narrative lately, and the rhetoric is quite inflammatory, outright dismissing what they are saying, instead of engaging with what the reasons might be for why they feel that way, certainly does not help the general positive forwarding discourse on why #Blacklivesmatter needs to be a thing.Today police are universally, without exception, the armed thugs of capital which is everywhere without exception dependent upon exploitation.No, just no
But you did engage, in a dismissive way, by responding at all. If you truly find the comment that repulsive and don't want to engage, then don't. But posting up dismissive comments without any followup language does not help all the rest of us who are following the conversation. If you have a different viewpoint, then state it, so the rest of us can make an informed decision on who we feel best represents what's real and true. But when you just say, "No." You aren't just shutting down conversation with that person, you are making it exceedingly difficult for anyone else to engage and have a meaningful conversation.
Honestly, we know what sort of conversation to expect from different people when we've engaged with them long enough. You and I are no exception. And if we choose not to engage with that person, that's fine. That's an incredibly valid choice. We have to take care of our own mental health before we start worrying about what some nitwit on the internet said. But engaging in a negative and dismissive way is not helpful.
Me, I'm just wondering how all police everywhere without exception are the "thugs of capital".
I think he meant "thugs of capitalism."
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It's not hard to see how the police fundamentally exist to protect the status quo, and when that status quo in society is a deliberately unfair system in order to funnel additional power to the already powerful, it's not hard to see "thugs of capital."
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I can't imagine a better time for this AP to come out than right now.
In a game that's fundamentally about vigilantism (at best) and unthinking serial murder and looting (at worst), an AP that holds the "heroes" to a higher moral standard is a welcome thing. The setting and content for Agents of Edgewatch will undoubtedly provide a rich environment for exploring that higher moral standard and the difficulties associated with maintaining it. Especially with the current events in the backs of their minds, I hope players will finally pause and consider what to do rather than just roll in and start slaying everything in sight.
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A lot of folks on here are confident to say there is corruption in the police force. The issue is that corruption goes unaddressed, unpunished and unchanged by fellow officers and by the system they perpetuate.
If the PCs are “good police” (assuming the game rewards that for players and they choose to play it as such), it doesn’t change that they still work in a broken system.
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I mean, this is a world with no history of systemic gender discrimination.
*cough**cough*Taldor*cough*
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I mean, this is a world with no history of systemic gender discrimination
I think it would be fair to say that Cheliax has some prejudice against halflings. Its very hard to say that you hold such a low opinion of a race that you are willing to enslave them without it being discrimination/racism.
It can be hard to apply these social conventions to a fantasy game where things like gods, angels, devils, and demons actually do exist and interact directly with people on a daily basis. The way the most people feel about fiends, worshipers of [enter evil deity here] is discriminatory and racist, but within the confines of the campaign we generally consider them to be irredeemably evil and therefore the discrimination is justified. It becomes a bit more complicated to apply real life morality on to fantasy tropes at least when it comes to how the people living in the fantasy world react to them.
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Sure but Absalom has legal slavery until very recently and the police force would have had to enforce that law, I don’t think they replaced the entire force once the law changed so...
Absolutely. Which is probably part of why fighting systemic corruption within the organization seems to be a major theme of several parts of the AP.
And, in terms of the PCs morality, the LOWG's timeline indicates they didn't join the Watch until after slavery was outlawed, so making the Watch a better organization being part of their goals seems very plausible.
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so, they are untrained naturals?No, that’s a ludicrous statement. Police are not trained to murder, and certainly not trained to murder innocent civilians.so again, if they are not trained in murdering innocents, they are unarguably still pretty good at that. not professional murderers, but great amateurs in that field, so to speak. I don't see how my question then is ludicrous.
edit: on second thought: no, scratch that. since they still get paid for what they do, they are definatley no amateurs either. they must be professionals per definition of that word, just not trained ones.
Turn over the rocks labelled "killology" and "Dave Grossman" and see what crawls away from the light...
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“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”
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I mean, this is a world with no history of systemic gender discrimination.
Now that's simply not true. There were and are gender-segregated organizations in Golarion, including gender-segregated religious orders and the Gray Maidens. But perhaps by "systemic gender discrimination" you mean "patriarchy?" That's not true either. Taldor's inheritance laws have already been brought up, the Gray Maidens were founded on what was essentially a patriarchal basis (if you wonder how an organization of women founded by a woman and led by a woman can possibly be patriarchal, you do not understand patriarchy and have probably never heard of Phyllis Schlafly), Kostchtchie was born a mortal Ulfen and brought Ulfen patriarchy to demonkind, and while Erastil's personal misogyny has been retconned it probably survives as an influential heresy the same way the Cult of the Dawnflower does. But perhaps the best proof is by contradiction. Holomog is called a matriarchy (which, as we know from Bebel, actually implies equality and communism), nowhere else is (to my knowledge anyway), therefore everywhere else must be its opposite.
To a point raised above, the DPRK is a capitalist country, engaging perforce in an all-embracing world system of capitalism. So are, e.g., China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba. It cannot be otherwise unless and until a decisive portion of the world's rich countries are no longer doing capitalism, a thing that is not possible in the short or medium term. And in any event the Kim dynasty does not intend to do socialism. Change my mind.
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Sure but Absalom has legal slavery until very recently and the police force would have had to enforce that law, I don’t think they replaced the entire force once the law changed so...
They actually didn’t (this came up in another thread I believe). The Token Guard, the guards for the district which housed the slave market, explicitly did not go in there. They allowed it yes, but they didn’t enforce it.
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I mean, this is a world with no history of systemic gender discrimination.Now that's simply not true. There were and are gender-segregated organizations in Golarion, including gender-segregated religious orders and the Gray Maidens.
Systemic gender discrimination would generally be used, at least colloquially, to refer to something a lot more widespread than specific and unusual religious orders. Most religious orders on Golarion do not appear to be sex segregated, so its hardly universal even there.
But perhaps by "systemic gender discrimination" you mean "patriarchy?" That's not true either. Taldor's inheritance laws have already been brought up,
Yep, totally an example, from a fairly major world power. Of course, it's the world power most stuck in the past, and there's little evidence of this being widespread outside Taldor.
the Gray Maidens were founded on what was essentially a patriarchal basis (if you wonder how an organization of women founded by a woman and led by a woman can possibly be patriarchal, you do not understand patriarchy and have probably never heard of Phyllis Schlafly),
I strongly disagree that this is necessarily true. The Grey Maidens are a result of one woman's deep and abiding issues, and to what degree those are internalized misogyny is really speculative. It's certainly possible, since she's from Cheliax and Hell canonically is misogynist, but I don't think this statement is proven by any means.
Kostchtchie was born a mortal Ulfen and brought Ulfen patriarchy to demonkind,
There are several misleading things about this sentence.
Firstly, we have basically no evidence that Kostchtchie's people as a whole were particularly misogynist. His father was and he was, but they could easily have been relatively isolated in that particular prejudice.
Secondly, even assuming their particular tribe was misogynist (which does seem reasonably likely, though not certain), there's no evidence at all that this belief was widespread among the Ulfen people in general, so calling it 'Ulfen misogyny' while technically correct, is highly misleading in its implications.
Thirdly, the Abyss is primarily matriarchal, with Kostchtchie being a very isolated exception that the other Demons generally don't get along with, so saying he 'brought it to demonkind' is, again, pretty misleading even if technically true, it's pretty much just him and his direct followers, not widespread among demons. He doesn't even have any other Demon Lords as allies, he's unpopular and isolated from his peers.
and while Erastil's personal misogyny has been retconned it probably survives as an influential heresy the same way the Cult of the Dawnflower does.
This is possible, but unproven.
But to get to the heart of the issue: There is absolutely canonical misogyny on Golarion in several places (most notably Hell and anywhere they hold sway, the Hold of Belkzen, and as you mention followers of Kostchtchie), and several places with misandry as well (most notably among the Drow), but what there isn't is the systematic universality of misogyny in real world Western European (and thus modern American) culture. It's not nonexistent in the world by any means, but it's not the norm for women to suffer from a 'glass ceiling' or suffer several other things real women have to deal with every day in almost any nation in the Inner Sea.
Which is what people are getting at. Not that it doesn't exist, but that it isn't a deep rooted and well nigh universal systemic problem in the same way it is in real life.
But perhaps the best proof is by contradiction. Holomog is called a matriarchy (which, as we know from Bebel, actually implies equality and communism), nowhere else is (to my knowledge anyway), therefore everywhere else must be its opposite.
Holomog is not what I'd describe as communism, and is described as a matriarchy because all its actual rulers, apparently without exception, are women. There appear to be specific mystical reasons for that rather than just prejudice, but calling a society with 100% female rulers a matriarchy implies absolutely nothing about the nations that call them that. That's like calling a nation with a King a kingdom...it's just an acknowledgement of reality.
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Zimmerwald - your statement in the Grey Maidens is frustrating
I have no idea who Phyllis Schlafly is or indeed how such an organisation can be based on the patriarchy. But it is phrased in such a way like I really should but know who that is and know the answer. And if you don’t then please kindly exit the discussion.
The point is just raised and left there and not explained. This isn’t really a way of framing arguments. Especially when you are using it to reinforce the points you are trying to make
I don’t doubt there is a very detailed explanation here that does support what you were trying to say. But it isn’t something in your argument and I am not sure is common knowledge
Please kindly note some of the examples you draw upon are like this. I look at your very interesting detailed analysis of how Hell’s Rebels can be an allegory for the revolutions in Germany at the end of WW1. That is a subject most outside of Germany only have a very high level understanding of (at best).
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I love thinking about, reading about, and discussing how to end police violence in the real world, and about how to make sure the games I play don't reinforce models of authority and power that promote abuse and oppression. However, I feel like this thread has really run off into the weeds and is no longer engaging in a constructive conversation about holding the RPG industry or us players accountable to doing better in making sure our games are accessible to all players and aware of the ways in which the stories we tell might be reinforcing harmful stereotypes or making light of systemic violences and trauma. Much less looking specifically at the AP Agents of Edgewatch. It would probably be better to start new threads in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion if you want to have more theoretical discussions about different organizations across Golarion.
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I will say that the first book of the AP sounds pretty gross regardless of the timing.
You're essentially playing police in the employ of the Absalom Government, enforcing the law in a newly re opened (for the rich - remember people still lived here before) Precipice Quarter trying to crack down on the desperately poor riff raff that already lived there before.
That's placing gentrification on the Good side of the column, policing on the Good side of the column and being poor on the Bad side.
The pitch on this was good, I was expecting very Sam Vimes and Carrot sort of vibes but this just doesnt feel like a very thoughtful or appropriate execution of the idea.
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I will say that the first book of the AP sounds pretty gross regardless of the timing.
You're essentially playing police in the employ of the Absalom Government, enforcing the law in a newly re opened (for the rich - remember people still lived here before) Precipice Quarter trying to crack down on the desperately poor riff raff that already lived there before.
That's placing gentrification on the Good side of the column, policing on the Good side of the column and being poor on the Bad side.
The pitch on this was good, I was expecting very Sam Vimes and Carrot sort of vibes but this just doesnt feel like a very thoughtful or appropriate execution of the idea.
Get ready to shine your badge and report for duty—the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path begins! In this thrilling new Pathfinder campaign, players assume the role of fresh recruits of the Edgewatch, the newest division of Absalom's city watch. Tasked with fighting crime during this year's Radiant Festival—a grand centennial gathering of exhibitors and wonders from around the world that this year celebrates the grand reopening of Absalom's treacherous Precipice Quarter, long a ruined haven of monsters and criminals. Soon after taking on the new beat, the detectives learn that the fair has attracted not only cutpurses and vandals, but also poisoners, ransomers, and even a sadistic serial murderer, and it's up to the Agents of Edgewatch to crack the case and bring these villains to justice!
From my reading of the wiki I don't really believe there was people living there, or if it was it wasn't because they were destitute, what with the monsters and hauntings in the destroyed district. Could there be? Yes, but with above mentioned and that the district was actually closed off it would be rather difficult to get into and stay.
Also if the place is destroyed due to a calamity and then effort is made to rebuild it I don't quite believe that's gentrification.
That being said that's just my reading and I would like some clarification from those in the know, was the Precipice Quarter destroyed and only housing monsters and hauntings, or was it simply a poor and impoverished district after the destruction but before the AP?
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I will say that the first book of the AP sounds pretty gross regardless of the timing.
You're essentially playing police in the employ of the Absalom Government, enforcing the law in a newly re opened (for the rich - remember people still lived here before) Precipice Quarter trying to crack down on the desperately poor riff raff that already lived there before.
That's placing gentrification on the Good side of the column, policing on the Good side of the column and being poor on the Bad side.
The pitch on this was good, I was expecting very Sam Vimes and Carrot sort of vibes but this just doesnt feel like a very thoughtful or appropriate execution of the idea.
Get ready to shine your badge and report for duty—the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path begins! In this thrilling new Pathfinder campaign, players assume the role of fresh recruits of the Edgewatch, the newest division of Absalom's city watch. Tasked with fighting crime during this year's Radiant Festival—a grand centennial gathering of exhibitors and wonders from around the world that this year celebrates the grand reopening of Absalom's treacherous Precipice Quarter, long a ruined haven of monsters and criminals. Soon after taking on the new beat, the detectives learn that the fair has attracted not only cutpurses and vandals, but also poisoners, ransomers, and even a sadistic serial murderer, and it's up to the Agents of Edgewatch to crack the case and bring these villains to justice!From my reading of the wiki I don't really believe there was people living there, or if it was it wasn't because they were destitute, what with the monsters and hauntings in the destroyed district. Could there be? Yes, but with above mentioned and that the district was actually closed off it would be rather difficult to get into and stay.
Also if the place is destroyed due to a calamity and then effort is made to...
Your sources note that Precipice was a haven for "criminals" as well as monsters (and what exactly exempts the monsters from consideration here?), that it was "sparsely populated" and had "few residents who remain[ed]." The term "erasure" gets thrown around, but this sort of dismissal is exactly what it is supposed to describe.
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"and what exactly exempts the monsters from consideration here"
The fact that Absalom welcomes Gnolls and other non-standard (going off core ancestries) species means when they use "monster" here they're talking about things that aren't very nice, not an Orc applying to open a smoothie bar.
"that it was "sparsely populated" and had "few residents who remain[ed]." The term "erasure" gets thrown around, but this sort of dismissal is exactly what it is supposed to describe."
I wasn't dismissing them or trying to erase them, but when a section is closed off after being hit with a calamity and is noted to be a haven for monsters, criminals, and hauntings and other unpleasantness since, I don't foresee those who remained, destitute or not, having a long life expectancy there.
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In order for "well, there was no one living here already" to work there needs there to be something really spooky or cataclysmic being the cause for that, IMO.
"The indigenous population avoided that area, because it's literally haunted by malevolent ghosts" is one thing but "the indigenous population avoided that area because they were lazy" should be right out.
Like "why did Absalom, possibly the most grandiose city in all of the world have sparsely populated area" is a thing we would need to drill down on.
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Not having the book so I went off the Wiki, that passage there lends more credence to there not being people living there so opening the district back and repairing it as per AoE 1 doesn't seem a case of forcing the destitute out but more actually getting rid of threats, actual threats not just things labeled threats.
I'm sure there's been some PFS Scenarios set there so they could have more info on if there's any communities there or not.
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The Guide to Absalom calls out not just "thieves" and "killers," as seeking shelter in Precipice, but also "vagabonds" who have nowhere else to go. Presumably the thieves were about as impoverished and desperate as the vagabonds and weren't just thieving for the hell of it. eddv has the right of it: Book 1 has you doing slum clearance/shantytown clearance as part of an urban renewal project for the benefit of landowners who abandoned their property more than 20 years ago.
(NB: typical adverse possession period is 10 years, so either Absalom's is longer, it doesn't have adverse possession, or it seized the district under eminent domain and auctioned off the land with the former owners just happening to buy up their old properties. Fancy that.)
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eddv has the right of it: Book 1 has you doing slum clearance/shantytown clearance as part of an urban renewal project for the benefit of landowners who abandoned their property more than 20 years ago.
Seeing as how the book isn't out yet and neither you nor eddv have read it, not really.
And you conveniently ignored the whole of that passage that thejeff provided.
The entire district was abandoned, and it no longer has a ruling council, district watch, or viable community. In many places, undead roam freely, and no one is allowed to cross into neighboring districts after dark. Thieves, killers, and vagabonds sometimes seek refuge here, but as often as not their scream are heard at night as they discover there is no longer any safety in the Precipice Quarter.
I don't see clearing out the undead and monsters killing the destitute that do end up there and repairing the ruined district of the city as a bad thing.
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I don't see clearing out the undead and monsters killing the destitute that do end up there and repairing the ruined district of the city as a bad thing.
Because you've conveniently put it out of your mind that these people end up there because there is no provision made for them. That is not going to change because they are cleared out of their one available semi-refuge. Trying to spin this as for their own good is frankly ghoulish. Especially when we know for whose benefit it really is: the old property owners', and to a lesser extent the city's treasury (because rich people, in theory, pay taxes).
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I don't see clearing out the undead and monsters killing the destitute that do end up there and repairing the ruined district of the city as a bad thing.Because you've conveniently put it out of your mind that these people end up there because there is no provision made for them. That is not going to change because they are cleared out of their one available semi-refuge. Trying to spin this as for their own good is frankly ghoulish. Especially when we know for whose benefit it really is: the old property owners', and to a lesser extent the city's treasury (because rich people, in theory, pay taxes).
*blink blink*
The book on the subject explicitly spells out that anyone who does take refuge in the district gets slaughtered by the undead and other horrors therein. It's not a refuge in the slightest.
I put nothing out of mind, I didn't claim the destitute were in current state through any fault of their own or anything of the sort, nor that we should ignore them. I'm specifically talking about the Precipice District which so far has had no evidence of communities of people living there, or anyone even surviving there.
Why are you thinking this is the only place the destitute can go on the Isle? Why do you think they have to go there?
You of the opinion (is what I'm getting from reading that post) that the district should be left as is so that people can still wander in... and inevitably get killed is ghoulish. We can address issues such as homelessness AND undead and other monsters infesting ruins of a destroyed city. It's not a one or the other deal.
As for people it benefits, you don't think the neighboring districts full of civilians might benefit just a bit from NOT having innumerous monsters lurking nearby?
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Isn't the info about the state of the Precipice Quarter from the Guide to Absalom and therefore like a decade out of date? I seem to recall that the Guide also says that the Precipice Quarter is largely uninhabitable and has no real official municipal presence in it - and we know that has changed in the intervening years. Is there some reason to completely assume that the recovery project for the Quarter didn't already do anything about its previous inhabitants and the circumstances that lead them to try to survive there?
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I don't see clearing out the undead and monsters killing the destitute that do end up there and repairing the ruined district of the city as a bad thing.Because you've conveniently put it out of your mind that these people end up there because there is no provision made for them. That is not going to change because they are cleared out of their one available semi-refuge. Trying to spin this as for their own good is frankly ghoulish. Especially when we know for whose benefit it really is: the old property owners', and to a lesser extent the city's treasury (because rich people, in theory, pay taxes).As Rysky said, they mostly just die.
But even leaving that aside, what's your theory about what should be done with this district? Should it simply be left for the undead and vermin and maybe a few destitute people with no attempt to improve anything?
Is there anyway to improve a mostly destroyed and monster infested part of a city or must they be left in that state for fear of gentrification?
Off the top of my head? Seize the land via eminent domain. Charter a corporation, give it ownership of the land and a mandate to improve the district. This can mean anything from hiring adventurers to remove supernatural threats to life to demolishing dangerous buildings and putting up new ones. Give its shares to the central government of the city and bar their sale, and the sale of 50% of the land (gotta get financing from somewhere), on the market for 5 years. For those 5 years, one third of the corporation's directors are appointed by the heads of other districts in proportion to their populations, one third by the central government of the city, and one third are elected by the people of Precipice Quarter. Anyone in Precipice Quarter who gives their name to the government is given amnesty for any crimes committed before the creation of the corporation. In addition to amnesty, any who remain in Precipice Quarter by the end of 5 years (including people who move in over the course of that time and register) and work to improve it according to the plans its directors draw up is awarded an equal share of the corporation's shares and the sole right to elect its directors. Pay people who work for the corporation prevailing wages in neighboring districts to attract workers, with the option to credit the value of salvage found by workers to wages to keep costs down. At the end of things you've rehabilitated a large number of citizens and created a community cooperative with ownership of and democratic management over half a district. I'd call it a community land trust but it's been a while since I've worked with them and I know I'm forgetting something important.
Now, that's just a scheme off the top of my head and with numbers chosen completely arbitrarily. Consulting the people involved instead of looking at them as either collateral damage or undifferentiated from the monsters who prey on them, and incorporating their ideas would (if they were real), likely yield a superior plan. I am also not an urban planning expert, but I'm reluctant to recommend their advice since the actual slum clearance plans that have come down the pike over the last 50 years have been quite a lot crueler and more developer-friendly than this.
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Isn't the info about the state of the Precipice Quarter from the Guide to Absalom and therefore like a decade out of date? I seem to recall that the Guide also says that the Precipice Quarter is largely uninhabitable and has no real official municipal presence in it - and we know that has changed in the intervening years. Is there some reason to completely assume that the recovery project for the Quarter didn't already do anything about its previous inhabitants and the circumstances that lead them to try to survive there?
Do you have anything written pointing any of this out?
We go off the latest published material, and Guide to Absalom is the latest published material on the subject to my knowledge.
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Off the top of my head? Seize the land via eminent domain. Charter a corporation, give it ownership of the land and a mandate to improve the district. This can mean anything from hiring adventurers to remove supernatural threats to life to demolishing dangerous buildings and putting up new ones. Give its shares to the central government of the city and bar their sale, and the sale of 50% of the land (gotta get financing from somewhere), on the market for 5 years. For those 5 years, one third of the corporation's directors are appointed by the heads of other districts in proportion to their populations, one third by the central government of the city, and one third are elected by the people of Precipice Quarter. Anyone in Precipice Quarter who gives their name to the government is given amnesty for any crimes committed before the creation of the corporation. In addition to amnesty, any who remain in Precipice Quarter by the end of 5 years (including people who move in over the course of that time and register) and work to improve it according to the plans its directors draw up is awarded an equal share of the corporation's shares and the sole right to elect its directors. Pay people who work for the corporation prevailing wages in neighboring districts to attract workers, with the option to credit the value of salvage found by workers to wages to keep costs down. At the end of things you've rehabilitated a large number of citizens and created a community cooperative with ownership of and democratic management over half a district. I'd call it a community land trust but it's been a while since I've worked with them and I know I'm forgetting something important.
Now, that's just a scheme off the top of my head and with numbers chosen completely arbitrarily. Consulting the people involved instead of looking at them as either collateral damage or undifferentiated from the monsters who prey on them, and incorporating their ideas would (if they were real), likely yield a superior plan. I am also not an urban planning expert, but I'm reluctant to recommend their advice since the actual slum clearance plans that have come down the pike over the last 50 years have been quite a lot crueler and more developer-friendly than this.
Ah, Capitalism.
That is surely a better and more moral path.
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It's almost like a game about solving problems with swords and fireballs is not equipped to engage with the complex ideas involved in gentrification, policing, community service and trying to wedge itself into that space will probably do more damage than good in any conversation about these topics.
Frankly these games are barely able to stand to the faintest breeze of criticism for any real topics.
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It's almost like a game about solving problems with swords and fireballs is not equipped to engage with the complex ideas involved in gentrification, policing, community service and trying to wedge itself into that space will probably do more damage than good in any conversation about these topics.
Frankly these games are barely able to stand to the faintest breeze of criticism for any real topics.
That is honestly underselling, and rather, insulting to not only the game but the people who play it.
We’re not idiots.
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I'm not saying people who play these games are idiots. I'm saying that the game itself doesn't have the tools, the history or the language to handle these topics with any real sensitivity.
These games don't put you in the shoes of the people who need empathy the most, they don't deal with change and transformation. They are good at one archetype: Become a better box of knives.
I know when I'm playing a game like Monsterhearts, the very mechanics of the game are trying to express something about teenage hormones, queer experiences and the difficult subjects being broached.
Pathfinder as a game has stumbled a lot (remember when you could get magic powers from a demonic rape clown? Or the gorilla orcs in the 2e bestiary art drafts?) these things got changed and updated, or removed because people made a fuss, not because Paizo is particularly enlightened and catches these things on the first pass, or works with sensitivity readers. They're on a tight schedule, but sometimes that gets used as an excuse to let tone-deaf things through.
I want to know how they're going to make the mechanics of their tactical combat RPG reward peaceful solutions, or are they just going to provide "moral justification" for knocking the heads of "monsters and criminals" as a work-around?
If I was asked to make a game about the police right now, I sure as heck wouldn't be writing the adventure from the perspective of the cops. I wouldn't be trying to use the empathy machine of RPGs to feel sympathetic for the police.
You can make an artwork with a box of crayons, but it's not going to have the sophistication or nuance of someone with a box of paints and years of experience.
I don't trust Paizo has the experience with this particular topic, to do it sensitively.
And not all GMs, and groups have the experience to treat this topic well either.
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The entire D&D/Pathfinder sphere of gaming is still firmly mired in the racist, colonialist baggage of its youth; the core is still too much “kill people for their stuff” to say otherwise. That’s why using it as a vessel to tell a nuanced story about policing, especially at a time when it’s in the forefront of most of the Western world, is why me and so many others are skeptical of this; if the adventure fantasy genre can’t get past killing evil savages as heroic bearers of civilization, why would it - and in Pathfinder’s case, specifically an engine largely built around interesting deadly combat - handle this gracefully?
I’m very curious to see this eventual blog post and Player’s Guide, but I’ll admit to personally giving it slim odds of wowing critics.
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I want to know how they're going to make the mechanics of their tactical combat RPG reward peaceful solutions
Oh I don’t know, perhaps how they’ve been doing so this whole f@$#ing time?
Does every encounter published have non-violent/diplomatic alternative solutions to them? No. But to act as if they’ve never done so is false and arguing in bad faith.
Speaking of faith, do I have faith they’re going to handle this perfectly? No.
But I’m also not handling them or players with kid gloves and outright declaring it impossible.
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I want to know how they're going to make the mechanics of their tactical combat RPG reward peaceful solutionsOh I don’t know, perhaps how they’ve been doing so this whole f!@@ing time?
Does every encounter published have non-violent/diplomatic alternative solutions to them? No. But to act as if they’ve never done so is false and arguing in bad faith.
Speaking of faith, do I have faith they’re going to handle this perfectly? No.
But I’m also not handling them or players with kid gloves and outright declaring it impossible.
The issue is that the number of acceptable violent (not to mention fatal!) combat encounters for Good-aligned police officers should, ideally be, much lower than that of the "adventurer" in almost any other AP.
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Plus, I mean things like "it's okay to kill that criminal, he is literally a vampire and thus inherently a danger" gets into some really problematic territory. Cops get away with murder all the time by declaring how intimidated they were by the hulking muscles of like a 12 year old black kid.
It's okay for regular adventurers to just kill the neighborhood vampire, but not really okay for cop-adventurers.