I was today looking at compiling a list for my players of languages that are available. As I looked through a couple of sites to do so, I was struck by one particlar absense:
Chelaxian.
Which, according to the Rise of the Runelords player's guide (which my party of said groip used when they generated their characters) was a language.
Apparently, later sources don't have it as one.
So my question is thus two-fold:
1) Does anyone know why Chelaxian got obviated
and b) what ought to I have my PCs replace that language with, since it seems unlike that it will ever come up?
(Asking here since this is more of an edition-agnostic lore question than a mechanical one.)
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As far as I know, even in first edition Cheliax's main language was Taldane/Common. I don't think there was ever a "Chelaxian" language.
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There was in the RotRL player's guide, mentioned in a sidebar along with Boggard, Shoanti, Thassilonian and Varisian.
To quote:
Chelaxian: Only the wealthy of Korvosa and travelers from the far south speak the national tongue of Cheliax. Humans of Chelish descent gain this tongue as a bonus language.
Clearly it didn't make it into 1E (maybe not even past this one point), but I'm half-curious as to how far it got.
(Also, I am far too good at pre-empting myself. Turns out I actually HAD made/gotten a list of Golarion languages (though I can do some updating now!) and had just forgotten. Chelaxian wasn#t there, either, bu I probably just missed it then!)
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“We have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language.” --Oscar Wilde
Chelaxian isn't so much a language of its own as a distinct dialect of Taldane.
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Yup, Chelaxian IS Taldane IS Common. One mutually intelligible language as far as game is concerned, mechanically.
Common is really a euphemism bordering on metagame term.
Realise that RotRL is set in Varisia, where core community of native Common speakers is "ethnic" Chelish.
There is no reason to refer to "Taldane" in that context, as Cheliax is closer and Varisa was part of Chelish Empire before.
AFAIK it was settled by Cheliax independently, not earlier when Cheliax was part of Taldan Empire, so Chelish-ism is extra-emphasized.
Clearly Chelaxian is the actually relevant route thru which Common is used and spoken in Varisia.
This isn't really any CHANGE to setting post-2E, it was always like this, just not consistently/overtly presented to players.
I myself had already in 1E taken the liberty of referring to "Taldo-Chelaxian" as single shared language.
(along lines of real world "Serbo-Croatian" which linguists consider 1 language, despite nationalist political efforts to contrary)
Anybody in setting could reasonably refer to them individually/distinctly, but more in the meaning of accent, dialect etc,
and not about actually distinct languages which are not mutually intelligible (which is what matters mechanically re: languages).
Not that there is strictly two dialect pronunciations delineated by Chelaxian/ Taldane "proper",
there can be multiple dialects within self-identified "Chelaxian" and within self-identified Taldane,
and people with functionally the same dialect/accent may happen to call it different things for whatever reason.
The game doesn't model language distinctions all that closely, unsurprising given primary American audience isn't very multilingual.
In all honesty, the choice of Taldane as singular name is reasonably contentious simply because the Chelish Empire
(effectively rebelled from Taldan Empire) was the immediate predecessor of most Common-speaking nations.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean anybody would have suddenly changed the name of the language they are speaking.
Such as how "the Americans" continued calling their language "English" despite explicitly rebelling against English state.
Varisia and Sargava/Vidiran might be exceptions in directly relating to Chelish above all, but that doesn't change fundamentals.
So I think it's reasonable and realistic for there to be in-world minor controversy on which is most appropriate name (locally or in general).
But that just doesn't correspond to game mechanic distinct language, which treats Taldane/Chelaxian/Common as 1 language.
Creative Director
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There was in the RotRL player's guide, mentioned in a sidebar along with Boggard, Shoanti, Thassilonian and Varisian.
To quote:
Chelaxian: Only the wealthy of Korvosa and travelers from the far south speak the national tongue of Cheliax. Humans of Chelish descent gain this tongue as a bonus language.Clearly it didn't make it into 1E (maybe not even past this one point), but I'm half-curious as to how far it got.
(Also, I am far too good at pre-empting myself. Turns out I actually HAD made/gotten a list of Golarion languages (though I can do some updating now!) and had just forgotten. Chelaxian wasn#t there, either, bu I probably just missed it then!)
That's as far as it got—the player's guide. Which we created at the same time as we were creating Burnt Offerings. We abandoned the concept of "Chelaxian" as a language very early... before even we were done with Rise of the Runelords, when it became apparent that we already had a LOT of regional languages.
Regional languages absolutely add great flavor and verisimilitude to a campaign setting, but the more languages there are, the more likely it is to have an encounter where interaction with NPCs becomes impossible. Furthermore, the more languages we add, the more difficult it becomes for PCs to keep up with that demand. We cut a lot of potential languages from the setting before they even saw print, but Chelaxian snuck through in those very early days is all.
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There is no reason to refer to "Taldane" in that context, as Cheliax is closer and Varisa was part of Chelish Empire before.
No it wasn't. Korvosa was, but the frontier of the empire sat on the Falcon River and extended only as far as Biston. The territory between the Storval Rise and the Falcon River was Kaer Magan, and was only conquered by Korvosa after its independence. Magnimar was founded by Korvosan exiles in 4608, the same year the empire descended into civil war, and was never an imperial subject. It wouldn't acquire dominion over its hinterland until later (and arguably still doesn't, as Whistledown and Ilsurian remaining independent prevents consolidation of its territories with easy transport links).
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I've always been personally surprised Galt doesn't have it's own language. I feel like having Taldan sort of being the Latin that other languages evolved from would have made a lot of sense, especially considering how relatively quickly real-world romantic languages developed. Cheliax, Galt, Andoran, Taldor, etc., all having their own versions would, imo, make a lot of sense.
Tl;dr: I want Golarion French.
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That's as far as it got—the player's guide. Which we created at the same time as we were creating Burnt Offerings. We abandoned the concept of "Chelaxian" as a language very early... before even we were done with Rise of the Runelords, when it became apparent that we already had a LOT of regional languages.
Regional languages absolutely add great flavor and verisimilitude to a campaign setting, but the more languages there are, the more likely it is to have an encounter where interaction with NPCs becomes impossible. Furthermore, the more languages we add, the more difficult it becomes for PCs to keep up with that demand. We cut a lot of potential languages from the setting before they even saw print, but Chelaxian snuck through in those very early days is all.
But James, it seems like that a lot of NPCs are written as speaking Common and whatever other languages they should know, unless the the writer of the story wanted to make an inability to communicate part of the quest. So while in theory it makes it more difficult, my experience as a player has been "(Almost) Everyone speaks Common".
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But James, it seems like that a lot of NPCs are written as speaking Common and whatever other languages they should know, unless the the writer of the story wanted to make an inability to communicate part of the quest. So while in theory it makes it more difficult, my experience as a player has been "(Almost) Everyone speaks Common".
There's speech, but then there's writing, which is fixed in a tangible medium. Deciphering writing requires either knowledge of the language or the appropriate spell or skill.
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Creative Director
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But James, it seems like that a lot of NPCs are written as speaking Common and whatever other languages they should know, unless the the writer of the story wanted to make an inability to communicate part of the quest. So while in theory it makes it more difficult, my experience as a player has been "(Almost) Everyone speaks Common".That's as far as it got—the player's guide. Which we created at the same time as we were creating Burnt Offerings. We abandoned the concept of "Chelaxian" as a language very early... before even we were done with Rise of the Runelords, when it became apparent that we already had a LOT of regional languages.
Regional languages absolutely add great flavor and verisimilitude to a campaign setting, but the more languages there are, the more likely it is to have an encounter where interaction with NPCs becomes impossible. Furthermore, the more languages we add, the more difficult it becomes for PCs to keep up with that demand. We cut a lot of potential languages from the setting before they even saw print, but Chelaxian snuck through in those very early days is all.
That's because we specifically made that choice so that adventures don't keep hitting plot/story speedbumps if there's a language that pops up that no player can speak. This design requirement wouldn't change if we had 3 languages or 3,000 languages, but the more languages we add, the more that feels weird, so in a way, limiting the number of languages in the setting helps there too.
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That's because we specifically made that choice so that adventures don't keep hitting plot/story speedbumps if there's a language that pops up that no player can speak. This design requirement wouldn't change if we had 3 languages or 3,000 languages, but the more languages we add, the more that feels weird, so in a way, limiting the number of languages in the setting helps there too.But James, it seems like that a lot of NPCs are written as speaking Common and whatever other languages they should know, unless the the writer of the story wanted to make an inability to communicate part of the quest. So while in theory it makes it more difficult, my experience as a player has been "(Almost) Everyone speaks Common".That's as far as it got—the player's guide. Which we created at the same time as we were creating Burnt Offerings. We abandoned the concept of "Chelaxian" as a language very early... before even we were done with Rise of the Runelords, when it became apparent that we already had a LOT of regional languages.
Regional languages absolutely add great flavor and verisimilitude to a campaign setting, but the more languages there are, the more likely it is to have an encounter where interaction with NPCs becomes impossible. Furthermore, the more languages we add, the more difficult it becomes for PCs to keep up with that demand. We cut a lot of potential languages from the setting before they even saw print, but Chelaxian snuck through in those very early days is all.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand with that regard.
If you write something important to the story but the players can't figure it out because they don't speak the language you could end the campaign then and there.
But my point is additional languages aren't meaningful if everyone important speaks common.
I really don't know how to rectify these two issue of:
1. Languages are pointless if everyone speaks common
2. If you make everyone not speak common players might miss important plot info.
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Creative Director
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It's hyperbolic to say "everyone important speaks Common." There's plenty of examples in our adventures where language barriers show up as part of the challenge for that adventure. We can have our proverbial cake and eat it too, in this case, and limit those encounter elements to where and when it's appropriate or needed for the story, and allow most others to play out without gatelocking them behind whether the PCs chose the right languages.
As with ALL games, of course, individual GMs are free to adjust languages as they see fit, and this is one of the quickest and easiest ways to add an extra layer of complexity to an encounter.
But for the baseline assumptions in adventures and encounters we publish, I'm pretty happy and content with where we are right now.
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Which goes back to my earlier point:
But James, it seems like that a lot of NPCs are written as speaking Common and whatever other languages they should know, unless the the writer of the story wanted to make an inability to communicate part of the quest. So while in theory it makes it more difficult, my experience as a player has been "(Almost) Everyone speaks Common".That's as far as it got—the player's guide. Which we created at the same time as we were creating Burnt Offerings. We abandoned the concept of "Chelaxian" as a language very early... before even we were done with Rise of the Runelords, when it became apparent that we already had a LOT of regional languages.
Regional languages absolutely add great flavor and verisimilitude to a campaign setting, but the more languages there are, the more likely it is to have an encounter where interaction with NPCs becomes impossible. Furthermore, the more languages we add, the more difficult it becomes for PCs to keep up with that demand. We cut a lot of potential languages from the setting before they even saw print, but Chelaxian snuck through in those very early days is all.
It basically boils down to "Everybody speaks common unless overcoming your inability to communicate was intended to be part of the challenge".
Of course in PF1 that wasn't even really a thing. Comprehend language was a 1st level spell that let you understand anybody, though you couldn't communicate back. But Share Language worked (1st) if you can convince the other person to let you cast a spell on them. And Tongues was a second level spell that let you both speak and understand.
So prepared players could get through any language difficulties by level 3 typically.
It's not so easy now in PF2. But still for me as a player it feels like not being to communicate with the NPC only comes as when its specific to the plot to not be able to do so.
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I can confirm that I've never seen any NPC in any AP whose only language is Varisian. Tien replaces common in tian xia and I'd imagine people from casmaron don't speak common, so Kelesh and Vudra are probably examples of languages whose speakers don't always speak common as well.(I remember all npcs from qadira and jalmarey speaking common though, but I could be wrong) People from mwangi don't always know common though.
I'm not sure if there are any npc anywhere in aps that speak only shoanti, skald, osirion or hallit, I do know that some robots in iron gods only spoke androffa and hallit though iirc. But even if its not intended, its extremely rare to have npc in ap that only speaks a regional language.
Sooo yeah I have to agree with "It wouldn't have mattered ap wise if there were more regional languages"(it only matters pfs wise since sometimes pfs gives bonuses for knowing correct language)
Have to say that it is kinda unfortunate that only group in Inner Sea that in 1e at least only spoke their regional language were people from Mwangi Expanse. Common is even more universal in avistan and northern garund than English is on earth globally
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I can confirm that I've never seen any NPC in any AP whose only language is Varisian. Tien replaces common in tian xia and I'd imagine people from casmaron don't speak common, so Kelesh and Vudra are probably examples of languages whose speakers don't always speak common as well.(I remember all npcs from qadira and jalmarey speaking common though, but I could be wrong) People from mwangi don't always know common though.
I'm not sure if there are any npc anywhere in aps that speak only shoanti, skald, osirion or hallit, I do know that some robots in iron gods only spoke androffa and hallit though iirc. But even if its not intended, its extremely rare to have npc in ap that only speaks a regional language.
Sooo yeah I have to agree with "It wouldn't have mattered ap wise if there were more regional languages"(it only matters pfs wise since sometimes pfs gives bonuses for knowing correct language)
Have to say that it is kinda unfortunate that only group in Inner Sea that in 1e at least only spoke their regional language were people from Mwangi Expanse. Common is even more universal in avistan and northern garund than English is on earth globally
For what it's worth, my party really loved having to have our elf translate for the party with the Ekujae elves in Age of Ashes. Sometimes communication barriers can give a spotlight to an otherwise quiet or rp-challenged player.
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Creative Director
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For what it's worth, my party really loved having to have our elf translate for the party with the Ekujae elves in Age of Ashes. Sometimes communication barriers can give a spotlight to an otherwise quiet or rp-challenged player.
Yup; that's an EXCELLENT example of when it's on-theme to have language barriers play a role in the adventure.
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I was trying to think examples from 1e though and doesn't really disprove my comment "apparently only local people in inner sea who only know their regional language and not taldane are people from mwangi expanse" <_<
(I REALLY like communication barrier things and players getting use out of regional languages, which was extremely rare in 1e)
Like common is so universal that its default assumed everyone in avistan uses common in communication instead of their native language.
(that said I want to point out the ekujae part of age of ashes is the best)
Like as example: Only npc in strange aeons book where players visit qadira who knows kelish but not common is a fiend. All other npcs know both common and kelish and there is never language barrier in the adventure of any sort.
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I was trying to think examples from 1e though and doesn't really disprove my comment "apparently only local people in inner sea who only know their regional language and not taldane are people from mwangi expanse" <_<
Common is rare in Irrisen, though the PCs are provided a convenient translator character almost immediately in Snows of Summer.
Like as example: Only npc in strange aeons book where players visit qadira who knows kelish but not common is a fiend. All other npcs know both common and kelish and there is never language barrier in the adventure of any sort.
To be fair, Qadira occupied most of Taldor for the better part of a millenium. That kind of thing leads to language diffusion.
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Like as example: Only npc in strange aeons book where players visit qadira who knows kelish but not common is a fiend. All other npcs know both common and kelish and there is never language barrier in the adventure of any sort.To be fair, Qadira occupied most of Taldor for the better part of a millenium. That kind of thing leads to language diffusion.
I think it was Osirion, not Taldor, that the Padishah Empire of Kelish occupied.
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I think it was Osirion, not Taldor, that the Padishah Empire of Kelish occupied.Like as example: Only npc in strange aeons book where players visit qadira who knows kelish but not common is a fiend. All other npcs know both common and kelish and there is never language barrier in the adventure of any sort.To be fair, Qadira occupied most of Taldor for the better part of a millenium. That kind of thing leads to language diffusion.
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And Taldor occupied part of Qadira at one point according to the article you linked. Even without all that, they still border one another so it makes sense that a lot of people in both regions might know the other's language.
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And Taldor occupied part of Qadira at one point according to the article you linked. Even without all that, they still border one another so it makes sense that a lot of people in both regions might know the other's language.
Going by this logic, the only nations in Avistan where Taldane should not be reasonably common are the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, New Edasseril (New Eurythnia's population is largely made up of immigrants who would bring the language with them), Irrisen, and the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. Everywhere else was either occupied by either Taldor or Cheliax, colonized by Taldans, or bordered or otherwise traded extensively with a nation that was so occupied or colonized.
And funnily enough, that's more or less what the published material seems to suggest about the distribution of Taldane. Kudos to Paizo for doing some sensible worldbuilding.
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That's some remarkable persistence of language, though. Most of Europe has invaded and/or been invaded by most of Europe, but we still have 30+ languages which are often entirely different.
Obviously, 30 separate languages would be a really inconvenient bit of overkill. It would be nice to see dialects, though. Each region should have quite a lot of local slang and different accents. Even England has a good dozen accents that can be distinguished quite easily, with plenty of regional words.
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That's some remarkable persistence of language, though. Most of Europe has invaded and/or been invaded by most of Europe, but we still have 30+ languages which are often entirely different.
Obviously, 30 separate languages would be a really inconvenient bit of overkill. It would be nice to see dialects, though. Each region should have quite a lot of local slang and different accents. Even England has a good dozen accents that can be distinguished quite easily, with plenty of regional words.
I seem to recall that in the novels (and the occasional softcover from 1e) there are dialects and slang. It’s probably just something that doesn’t have enough mechanical significance or role play impact to really devote word count in a bigger book. I think they hit a reasonable compromise between verisimilitude and practicality.
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Yeah, dialects and slang definitely show up in the fiction, including people needing to learn new terminology in new locations, it's just not severe enough that the people in question can't talk to each other and be mostly understood.
We actually know several bits of Chelaxian slang specifically, most notably 'slip' as a heavily racist slur used for halflings, and 'hellspawn' as the default (and only very slightly less racist) term for tieflings. The latter can be argued as more general, but the former is exclusive to Cheliax and those influenced heavily by Chelaxian culture.
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We actually know several bits of Chelaxian slang specifically
Cheliax, Empire of Devils (page 27) and Bastards of Erebus (page 50) even contain some Chelish slang other than racial slurs.
We also know a lot of Korvosan slang, which actually made it onto the wiki for some reason, probably because the Guide to Korvosa, which originated most of it, was a very early book. You can tell it's an early book because it was written before they stopped mentioning trade unions as part of the setting.
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That's some remarkable persistence of language, though. Most of Europe has invaded and/or been invaded by most of Europe, but we still have 30+ languages which are often entirely different.
Something that highly differentiates Avistan from Europe linguistically is that there is no analogue to the Germanic and Slavic migrations contemporaneous to and following the collapse of the not-Latin empires. The big human people-groups of Avistan are (roughly north to south and west to east) the Ulfen, the Kellids, the Varisians, the Shoanti, the Nidalese, and the Taldans. The Varisians, Shoanti, and Nidalese, are truly ancient peoples who predate Earthfall and were driven or confined to to the western edge of the continent by subsequent migrations and invasions. The Kellids and Ulfen (the latter despite their Germanic inspiration) post-date Earthfall, but predate the conquest of much of the continent by the Taldans. Indeed, the south Kellids were most often the peoples the Taldans conquered and assimilated, though small enclaves of Kellid peoples remain in Druma and Isger. Northern Kellids are more dispersed, living in Irrisen (where they mingle with Ulfens), the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Sarkoris, Iobaria, Numeria, Ustalav (which has an Issian ruling class), Mendev, the River Kingdoms, and Issia in Brevoy (all these countries from Mendev on also include large Taldan populations). The Taldan conquest, however, was the last major movement of people across Avistan, and none followed the way the Germanic and Slavic westward migrations followed the collapse of the western Roman Empire and the diminishment of the eastern. The only thing even remotely comparable was the demon invasion through the Worldwound, but when Deskari's armies invaded Sarkoris, the Sarkorians largely went to other Kellid countries along the Lake of Mists and Veils (Mendev, Numeria, Brevoy, Iobaria), while Taldan migration to Mendev skyrocketed. So Taldans (and Taldane) were not displaced or conquered.
The divergences of the various Romance languages were to a great extent prompted by the migrations of distinct Germanic peoples into formerly Roman territories and their installations as ruling classes over distinct kingdoms. And needless to say both Germanics and Slavics brought their own languages with them, which displaced Romance languages in certain spots (e.g., Alsace, Flanders, Brabant, Luxemburg, Switzerland, England, Austria, Yugoslavia). Nothing similar ever happened in Avistan, not least because the collapse of the last great Taldan empire (Cheliax) was less than a century ago. Further, eastern Avistan is much more heavily fortified against migration than eastern Europe was, with the World's Edge Mountains being more foreboding than the Carpathians and Taldor being stronger than eastern Rome.
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One degenerate form of Latin is much the same as another.
Awe, true to Caesar!
