Which class is best for stacking ALL THE BUFFS?

[DRD1812]

I'm coming back to PF1e after a stint over in 5e, and I'm excited to get back to stacking a cartoonish amount of buffs. I'm leaning towards occultist + VMC magus, with arcane pool, legacy weapon, and aegis offering a silly amount of customization for my gear.

Is there a better class combo out there for layering on the self-buffs?

[avr]

Evangelist cleric is a solid entry in the category; full spellcasting from the cleric spell list helps, and once bardic performance is a move action you're set. There's a feat line for using channel energy to bless your equipment too.

If you want buffs now-now-now an eldritch scion magus with the arcane bloodline can throw on two different buffs and full attack in the same round.

Familiars with wands can also enhance the amount of buffing you can do. An eldritch scion with a faerie dragon familiar could easily get up to 3 buffs in the same round.

[Minigiant]

Arcane Primalist Bloodrager

Blur+Haste+Transformation+Abyssal Blood Rage Power Enlarge)+ One other spell in ONE free action

[Ryze Kuja]

If you're all about stacking TEH BOOFS, you should definitely consider multi-classing.

I cast Summon Scott Wilhelm.

========================

What's your party's class combo, and what Adventure Path are you running? Or is it Homebrew?

[Kaouse]

Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor.
Spells as a standard action.
Studied Target as a move action.
Bane/Quickened Spells as a swift action.

Depending on build, you can also get free action buffs (Rage from Rage subdomain or Anger Inquisiton, Haste from Boots of Speed).

Inquisitor also gets Heroism on it's list, one of the best long-lasting buff spells in the game.

Note that while Sanctified Slayer is great because Studied Target can be used as a move action, regular Inquisitor gains Triple Judgement, whose strength can't be understated.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Another thing to think about is the speed with which you'll be buffing yourself. I know you want ALL the buffs, which would suggest full casters, but do you need the buffs from 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells? If not, consider mingling Warpriest and Magus together.

A Warpriest using Fervor can self-buff as a Swift action and a Magus can use a spell as if using 2 weapon fighting while still getting an attack off. Warpriest 2/Magus 1 could then Swift action Divine Favor for +1 Luck to attack/damage, cast True Strike on themselves, then take a 5' step with a +1 Longsword and attack.

[Shorticus]

I love bards, and you can make some greedy, amazing self-buffing bards. But one of my favorite, simple classes to use for self-buffing and kicking ass is the Warpriest.

Warpriests get the Cleric spell list, albeit they develop more slowly. However, they also get Blessings, which can do amazing things, such as Destruction adding lots of extra damage, or getting... I mean, just look at the blessings.

You get fighter bonus feats as a Warpriest, so if you want to VMC into another class you can. You can dip Barbarian for some extra STR or DEX in a fight if you wish, though you need a way of dealing with the fatigue penalty. VMC Paladin can give you Lay on Hands as a swift and Smite Evil 1/day which is a lot like saying "THIS BOSS DIES" once per day.

In fact, let's saw you were playing a Lawful Good Warpriest of Ragathiel. You don't use Molthune Arsenal Chaplain because you want the Destruction Domain. At 11th level, by the second round of combat, you could have smitten the enemy + used your Destruction Blessing via Quicken Blessing. This means you would be adding 11 damage (destruction blessing) + 7 damage (smite) to every attack's damage vs. that boss on top of whatever bonuses and spells you normally provide.

Of course, VMC cleric is probably more powerful for you. You'd get domains and blessings. They have a lot of nifty domain powers. Or you could VMC wizard for any of the wizard goodies, or VMC sorcerer to get a bonded object (extra biggest spell per day) via the arcane bloodline or to take a different bloodline.

And... you can afford this because you get extra feats as a Warpriest.

Now, personally, even just playing a regular warpriest is fun. They make amazing self-buffing archers, though technically a multiclassed character can do better. But for a single class build, Warpriest is perhaps the best ranged damage dealer in the game (unless you count the amazing things 9th level arcane casters can do).

Honorable mention here goes to the Divine Tracker Ranger. Divine Tracker Ranger gets warpriest blessings, meaning they can also use the Destruction Blessing (which, again, is amazing). Divine Tracker Ranger can qualify for 2WF while being STR-based, or can do well in the archery/ranged or two-handed roles. But where they really stand out is in any campaign where you KNOW what you'll be fighting a lot of <X>. For instance, if you're playing Wrath of the Righteous, I would argue a ranger specialized in killing demons is more powerful than a paladin, and that's with all the paladin-specific junk they throw at paladins in that campaign.

Remember that a Ranger's favored enemy bonus keeps growing, and with Instant Enemy they can turn ANYONE into their favored enemy. Also remember that Divine Tracker's Destruction Blessing adds 1/2 their level to damage per attack. Also remember they can focus on STR for 2WF, so all those static damage bonuses add up; and if you can find a source or pounce it's just silly. Or, again, use ranged attacks, perhaps specializing in throwing with TWF and high STR + a belt of mighty hurling? I can think of some ways to make a throwing ranger crazy, probably as a human for the extra feat.

(Note: a throwing ranger would probably need a blinkback belt tattooed onto his body as well as a belt of mighty hurling worn over that... That, or just take Ricochet Toss. )

[DRD1812]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

What's your party's class combo, and what Adventure Path are you running? Or is it Homebrew?

We're looking at Reign of Winter, but it's very conceptual right now.

I'm trying to go for a front-liner with a smattering of utility. That's why Occultist gets a look from me: the trappings of the warrior put that class in the unique position of being the on 6-level caster with a full BAB, which seems to fit gaps in the party makeup well.

Warpriest is the obvious second choice, but it seems better at buffs-now than total number of buffs.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

Even a vanilla bard can haste + inspire courage (plus quickened good haste [get a rod]) in one round from level 7.

[Davor Firetusk]

I've had occultists in back to back games that didn't even bother with trappings of the warrior and still got very good at buffing. Very much at the combo of offense and defense. Offense is easy because legacy weapon with way more bane than an inquisitor is incredibly good. The party makes jokes about how often they don't even bother with haste good.

[PCScipio]

A Half-Orc Speaker for the Past Battle Spirit Shaman could theoretically stack a lot of buffs (eg. Heroism + Haste + Blessing of Fervor + Divine Power + Righteous Might + Bane). Action Economy would be a big limiting factor however (although Contingency, or even Time Stop, could help).

Defensive Buffs are more limited, but include Barkskin, Magic Circle against Evil and Blur/Blink.

[Ryan Freire]

DRD1812 wrote:

I'm coming back to PF1e after a stint over in 5e, and I'm excited to get back to stacking a cartoonish amount of buffs. I'm leaning towards occultist + VMC magus, with arcane pool, legacy weapon, and aegis offering a silly amount of customization for my gear.

Is there a better class combo out there for layering on the self-buffs?

I don't think anything tops arcane bloodline bloodrager for the combo of number, versatility, and efficiency of application.

This is just "by entering a rage"

1-4 Standard rage
4-8 Rage + one of Blur, resist energy, protection from arrows, or spider climb
8-10 Rage + 1 of the above + one of Haste or Displacement
11-15 Greater rage + both of the prior options + a 2nd level or lower spell
16+ All of the above + one of beast shape 4, form of the dragon 1, or transformation

All for a free action with no other investment in self buffing at all.

[DRD1812]

Ryan Freire wrote:

DRD1812 wrote:

I'm coming back to PF1e after a stint over in 5e, and I'm excited to get back to stacking a cartoonish amount of buffs. I'm leaning towards occultist + VMC magus, with arcane pool, legacy weapon, and aegis offering a silly amount of customization for my gear.

Is there a better class combo out there for layering on the self-buffs?

I don't think anything tops arcane bloodline bloodrager for the combo of number, versatility, and efficiency of application.

I've got one of these guys in my long-running megadungeon at the moment. He tacks on monstrous physique to turn into one of these:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/tikb alang/

It's a scary amount of natural attacks.

Still, my big problem with the build is its lack of versatility. It is VERY GOOD at hitting things hard, but I find that there's a lack of finesse in terms of out-of-combat play.

[Moospuh]

I Preffer the Lore Shaman, either mixed with Ancestry or Tribe.

With arcane enlightenment hex you gain access to pretty much the whole wizard spell list, with the human varient fcb, you gain access to the select best spells from the cleric list, shaman list has a bunch of buff spells on it as well, as well with the ancestory and tribe giving you buff spells on their spirit magic. Pretty nice.also has access to hexes that are fantastic buffs, along with hexes that can give you natural attacks.

[Kurald Galain]

Ryan Freire wrote:

I don't think anything tops arcane bloodline bloodrager for the combo of number, versatility, and efficiency of application.

This is just "by entering a rage"

Arcane bloodline Eldritch Scion Magus can match that and add in another buff from spell combat, and a swift action pool enchant. Although he doesn't get the strength boost from rage, of course. If a tikbalang bloodrager has not enough out-of-combat versatility, a tikbalang Magus certainly does.

DRD1812 wrote:

I'm leaning towards occultist + VMC magus, with arcane pool, legacy weapon, and aegis offering a silly amount of customization for my gear.

While occultist is a solid class, the issue with legacy weapon is that it's a standard action (and lasts only one minute). So yes, in terms of self-buffing, Magus and Warpriest have him beat. So maybe swap that, so Magus-VMC-something-else, instead of something-VMC-Magus?

[Ryan Freire]

TBH I think tikbalangs fall behind The Deathsnatchers as of bestiary 6

6 attacks, pounce, flight, 2 resistances, d4 con drain poison

[Ryze Kuja]

DRD1812 wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

What's your party's class combo, and what Adventure Path are you running? Or is it Homebrew?

We're looking at Reign of Winter, but it's very conceptual right now.

I'm trying to go for a front-liner with a smattering of utility. That's why Occultist gets a look from me: the trappings of the warrior put that class in the unique position of being the on 6-level caster with a full BAB, which seems to fit gaps in the party makeup well.

Warpriest is the obvious second choice, but it seems better at buffs-now than total number of buffs.

Have you considered a Goliath Druid for Enlarge Person on yourself & your Animal Companion? Or a Druid with Plant Domain and take Growth Subdomain for Enlarge Person? With Shillelagh and Enlarge, that's a +3 size bonus and +1 enhancement bonus to a Great Club or Quarterstaff, so Gargantuan +1 Great Club would do 4d8+1 damage right out of the gate at level 1, and with zero feat investment, so you could take this build w/e you want to go from here. Druids get a whole ton of self buffs after that too, as well as plenty of offensive spellcasting and as a 9th level caster, and you're 3/4 BAB so if you have the Str to back it up, you won't be hurting on your chance to hit.

In the early-Mid game you can transition into a Druidzilla build and beefing up your Wild Shape shenanigans, then in the mid-late game you can switch to casting if you wanted, or keep powering on with your Wild Shape.

There's a lotta reasons to go Druid if "Self-buffing Frontliner with Utility" what you're going for.

[JDawg75]

I'm excited to see where this thread goes.

My two cents are that the arcane bloodrager is tough to beat. If you can spare a level, multiclass into 1 level of Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor. You get studied target, which gets you a +1 atk/dmg to most every any foe you face. You can also have access to divine spells such as Divine Favor, which, with Fate's Favored gets you another +2 to atk/dmg on top of everything you else you are getting. Not to mention acquiring a domain or an inquisition. If it's feather domain you get an animal companion too!

[Ryan Freire]

Whichever version gets picked, i think its important to note that if it cant get all the buffs you want on either ahead of engaging the dungeon or in the first 2 or so rounds of combat, its probably too slow at applying buffs. Casting a buff on turn 3 for a combat that ends on turn 4 or 5 isn't really efficient.

[Ryze Kuja]

Yeah, a build that requires a sequence of buffs that require multiple rounds of devotion only to have the combat be over, or nearly-over, should be caput.

I think whatever build the OP is going for should have a buff sequence of 2 rounds or less.

[avr]

An eldritch scion magus (arcane bloodline) is a lot like that arcane bloodrager except with spell combat instead of the rage bonuses. Being a 6-level spellcaster has more options out of combat, though their 2+Int skill points on a Cha-based melee spellcaster hurts them with skills.

[Shorticus]

Quote:

Whichever version gets picked, i think its important to note that if it cant get all the buffs you want on either ahead of engaging the dungeon or in the first 2 or so rounds of combat, its probably too slow at applying buffs. Casting a buff on turn 3 for a combat that ends on turn 4 or 5 isn't really efficient.

This is one reason I like Warpriests a lot. Warpriests can get swift-action blessings and swift-action castings of their actual spells really easily. It lets you continuously drop the hammer down on baddies while you're bolstering yourself.

Quote:

Warpriest is the obvious second choice, but it seems better at buffs-now than total number of buffs.

Its buffs are pretty dang incredible, though. My suggestion is to worship a deity with the Destruction Domain and get Quicken Blessing. Yes, it's buffs now, but it means when you buff the fight won't be over while you do it.

However, whatever class you pick, make sure you have the following:

1) Long-term buffs. Heroism, Magic Circle Against Evil / Protection From Evil, really anything that's 10 minutes/level or better is good.
2) Buffs you can cast before you enter a room you KNOW is filled to the brim with bad guys that want to eat you.
3) Buffs you can cast as swift actions.
4) A buff to open the fight with.

Bard is a good example here. It has some long-term buffs and can Haste up the whole party upon starting a fight. The song eventually kicks off as a move or swift action - very nice. And of course Bard has a few really cool min/level spells worth casting before kicking the boss room open (if you know it's the boss room, or there's only a few rooms left in the dungeon). So, bards are good at this, and there's plenty of martial bard builds out there.

Warpriest... I've rambled too much about it, but it's good at this.

Hunter is good at this, but by "self buff" we're really talking about the hunter and the hunter's pet getting uber-strong.

Inquisitors can make surprisingly strong fighter types that also have a selection of cool buffs, judgments, and interesting Solo Tactics combos. Worth checking out.

EDIT: Remember, you want to be using standard actions to end fights, so minimize buff time inside a fight.

[JDawg75]

In terms of buffing, I would take it further and say for typical fights there should not be more than one round of buffing.

As a sanctified slayer I'd study an enemy, bane an enemy, and cast divine favor (divine power for boss fights) in the first round. If I had levels in Barb or Bloodrager I could rage as a free action as well. In later levels I already had Heroism cast with an extend rod. All of these came online by the end of the first round, and after that I'd be doing my thing.

[Kurald Galain]

JDawg75 wrote:

In terms of buffing, I would take it further and say for typical fights there should not be more than one round of buffing.

I concur. Realistically, you can use one standard action to buff; so unless you're a warpriest or magus or something, you're stuck with that plus long-lasting prebuffs.

[DRD1812]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Yeah, a build that requires a sequence of buffs that require multiple rounds of devotion only to have the combat be over, or nearly-over, should be caput.

I think whatever build the OP is going for should have a buff sequence of 2 rounds or less.

I'm leaning for a reach build so that I can lay down buffs in the opening round, move action into AoO range, and still get some actual offensive punch in before round 2.

[Ryze Kuja]

DRD1812 wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Yeah, a build that requires a sequence of buffs that require multiple rounds of devotion only to have the combat be over, or nearly-over, should be caput.

I think whatever build the OP is going for should have a buff sequence of 2 rounds or less.

I'm leaning for a reach build so that I can lay down buffs in the opening round, move action into AoO range, and still get some actual offensive punch in before round 2.

All the more reason to go Druid, my friend.

[DRD1812]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

All the more reason to go Druid, my friend.

Heh. May be time to dust of treantmonk's guide. I don't know that I've ever run a druid before, and the notion of being relevant in all parts of the game is awfully appealing.

For comparison, here's the occultist / VMC magus build that I'm looking at. Legacy weapon + arcane pool + greater magic weapon is a major selling point, but there are a number of other focus powers that work into the self-buffing theme as well. Aegis + soulbound puppet offer some serious defense (the latter via the protector familiar archetype) while sudden speed helps out with mobility. The necromantic servant does a pretty good job putting an extra body on the field and offering flanking. The other big deal element is the "trappings of the warrior" implement. Being effectively full-BAB is pretty cool as a utility caster.

Half-Elf Occultist (variant mc magus) 1

Int > Str > Con = Dex > Wis > Cha

Alternate Racial Traits
-- Fey Thoughts (replaces multitalented) (Acrobatics, Climb)
-- Mordant Envoy (replaces adaptability)
-- Underworld Guide (replaces keen senses)

Implements
-- Transmutation (bardiche) – mending, lead blades
-- Necromancy (ferryman’s slug) – grave words, inflict light wounds Focus Powers
-- Necromantic Servant

Magus Arcana
Divinatory Strike @ 7th —> Retrain for Broad Study at 11th

Important Spells
Animate Dead, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon (stacks with arcane pool and legacy weapon, and saves a load of money), Magic Vestments, Wood Shape (for carving every possible soulbound puppet)

Skills
1 rank in each knowledge to take advantage of divinatory strike (acana, dungeoneering, local, nature, planes, religion), max out acrobatics. Note that Focus Power: sudden speed plays well with acrobatic repositioning + the reach weapon strategy

Feats
1st: Combat Reflexes; 5th: Power Attack; 9th: retrain Power Attack to Shield Focus, pick up Shield Brace (huge defensive bonus w/ magic vestments + aegis ability under the abjuration implement); 13th: reacquire Power Attack

Mental Focus @ 7th
3 (favored class) + 7 (level) + 4 (Int mod) = 14
Transmutation: 6 (+4 to Str)
Necromancy: 4
Abjuration: 4 (+2 to saves)
Trappings of the warrior (need 8 total from implements to get +2 BAB)

Touch Spells for Use w/ Spellstrike
(4th level spells available at 10th, spellstrike at 11th, 5th at 13th. Can swap spells at 11th and every 3 levels thereafter)
0 Touch of fatigue
1 Shocking grasp Inflict light wounds
2 Disguise other Share memory Inflict moderate wounds Pernicious poison Accelerate poison Disfiguring touch
3 Bestow curse Healing thief Inflict serious wounds Sands of time Toxic gift
4 (these options compete with death ward, flase life (greater), Inflict critical wounds Poison Rusting grasp
5 (this option competes with object possession (greater) Curse (major)
6 harm

[Kurald Galain]

DRD1812 wrote:

For comparison, here's the occultist / VMC magus build that I'm looking at. Legacy weapon + arcane pool + greater magic weapon is a major selling point, but there are a number of other focus powers that work into the self-buffing theme as well. Aegis + soulbound puppet offer some serious defense

The main issue is that Legacy Weapon and Aegis both require a standard action, and last one minute. This combined with short-term buffs like Lead Blades means that combat may be over before you've finished buffing yourself. It is a major advantage of Magus and Warpriest that they can self-buff as a swift action.

The issue with divinatory strike is that you want knowledge checks on the first round on combat, not whenever you happen to roll a crit.

...so maybe Ryze's druid is a better suggestion.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

If you're all about stacking TEH BOOFS, you should definitely consider multi-classing.

I cast Summon Scott Wilhelm.

========================

What's your party's class combo, and what Adventure Path are you running? Or is it Homebrew?

Yeah.

The general idea of stacking is that the same kind of bonuses don't stack. So if you want lots of bonuses that all stack, in principle, you want lots of different kinds of bonuses, and that does suggest lots of different sources, and that suggests lots of different classes.

I haven't compared too closely, but if I were to pick a most self-buff-heavy class, my first guess would be alchemist. I think that just about every Alchemal Extract is meant to be a self-buff. In fact, you need to take a special Discovery, Infusion to even allow another character to use an Alchemist's Extract. Plus, there is a particular Extract, Alchemal Allocation, that allows you to use any Potion without actually consuming it. And that means that every spell that can be made into a Potion, and that is a lot of them, in every class up to level 3 is in practice an Alchemal Spell, too.

[Scott Wilhelm]

DRD1812 wrote:

I'm trying to go for a front-liner with a smattering of utility.

Are you looking for advice aimed at directly informing your character creation?

DRD1812 wrote:

It's a scary amount of natural attacks.

Are you going for that again? A scary number of attacks? If so, do you need them to be in your Full Attack, or can they be in some other form?

DRD1812 wrote:

Is there a better class combo out there for layering on the self-buffs?

I think there is a limiting factor in using self-buffs for practical purposes.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Another thing to think about is the speed with which you'll be buffing yourself.

Ryan Freire wrote:

i think its important to note that if it cant get all the buffs you want on either ahead of engaging the dungeon or in the first 2 or so rounds of combat, its probably too slow at applying buffs. Casting a buff on turn 3 for a combat that ends on turn 4 or 5 isn't really efficient.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Yeah, a build that requires a sequence of buffs that require multiple rounds of devotion only to have the combat be over, or nearly-over, should be caput.

This. These guys are hitting the nail on the head.

I'm thinking you should really be making attack rolls by Round 2. I'm thinking then that you want the straight flush of of Actions that you can squeeze into a single round: use a Wand of something as a Standard Action; use Freebooter's Bane as a Move Action to give the whole party (and yourself) a +1 Attack and Damage; use your Ka Stone to Enlarge yourself as a Swift Action; and enter a Rage and drop your Wand as Free Actions.

Something like that.

DRD1812 wrote:

I'm leaning for a reach build so that I can lay down buffs in the opening round, move action into AoO range, and still get some actual offensive punch in before round 2.

So I have a Druidzilla build. Wildshape into an Allosaurus and get 2 Claws and a Bite with Grab and Pounce with 2 Talons. Dip a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack. Get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and get a Gore Attack. Wear Barding with Armor Spikes so you can do Armor Spike Damage with every Grapple Attack. Take Hamatula Strike so your Bite and Gore trigger Grapple Attacks. Take Weapon Versatility so that your Claws and Talons, do to. Take levels in Warpriest so that your Natural Attack Damage does Sacred Weapon Damage instead of regular damage. Reach 15', lots of high-damage attacks, something like 84d6 in the Charge once you have all the pieces in place.

I was liking Spear Dancing Style Feats. You get to make any Pole Arm Finesseable, Reach, and Double, the butt end being like a Light Mace. I was thinking about Halberds. Halberds do Piercing and Slashing Damage, and they are Brace and Tripping Weapons, so with Spear Dancing Style, you can have a Halberd that is a Finessable, Double, Reach, Tripping, Brace Weapon that does Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning Damage, and that just makes me giggle.

I have others.

[Ryan Freire]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

This. These guys are hitting the nail on the head.

I feel like the most buff efficient party ive ever been in was more of a, 3/4 of the party casts a party wide buff round one +the barbarian/bloodrager + bard layer on a personal(for the barbs) or bardic performance

I had a lot of FUN handing out personal spells like giant form to the invulnerable rager with infusions as an investigator, but it was really action inefficient.

[Cevah]

Recently, with my Cleric (Evangelist) 18, I have buffed the party with:
Hunter's Blessing (choose terrain, type) to get +2 init, +2 attack, +2 damage
Sermonic Performance (=inspiration) +5 comp attack, +5 comp damage
Bless +1 morale attack
Prayer +1 luck attack, +1 luck damage
Blessing of Fervor +2 untyped attack (does not stack with haste)
for a total of +11 attack, +8 damage

HB lasts hours, so if you know what you will be fighting, is an easy buff.
SP at that level is a swift to activate. I got an extra +1 from a Dervish Sikke.
B takes a standard to cast and lasts 1m/l. If you can get this up just before a fight, it helps, but don't cast once the fight starts unless quickened.
P and BoF take a standard to cast and last 1r/l.

This level of buffing can turn a fight around quite nicely.

/cevah