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Arazni is from Arcadia, so who knows what she cooked up to contribute tot he evolution of Magi/Eldritch Knights/Arcane Archers...
Worth noting that some in Arcadia have magical firearms that don’t use ammo...
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Aroden has accomplished plenty of good deeds. I'm not saying he never did good things. Defeating Tar-Baphon and Deskari both strike me as "save the region" actions, for example.
He's a complex deity, certainly, and it's a disservice to his mythology to assume that one thing defines him.
I would also think that not saving Arazni was a tactical choice.
He may have very much wanted to have saved her, but feared it a trap. Ultimately Aroden did end up dying/disappearing so his fears weren't completely unfounded.
I think perhaps on a personal level he wished to save her, but felt the risks we're too high, and being a lawful neutral deity, didn't feel compelled to risk himself to do it the way a good god would have.
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Maybe a dumb question but what other questionable/distubring things did Aroden do in the official storyline?
I'll give you another example from the Tyrant's Grasp AP:
Aroden found that Arazni was not only a wizard but a skilled warrior as well. They traveled together and gained a reputation as great heroes. Unbeknownst to Arazni (but now beknownst to us), Aroden secretly placed a bit of his soul within the sacred kumaru tree, the source of the Veins of Creation. He used this to grow a branch of the tree to make his shield as well as do many of his other great feats. His power was then tied to the tree and the source of wealth and well being for Xopatl.
Then he died.
The feedback withered the tree and destroyed the Veins of Creation. The nation's prosperity and wealth vanished with them. Because it was tied to a dead god and no one knew exactly what Aroden did, they couldn't figure out how to fix it.
Aroden was not a popular name in Xopatl when the PCs arrived there in the AP.
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Maybe a dumb question but what other questionable/distubring things did Aroden do in the official storyline?I'll give you another example from the Tyrant's Grasp AP:
** spoiler omitted **
Well, to be fair on that one he did it before his ascensions and his act did not cause damage in and of itself.
But he did do it for his own gain, and his actions ultimately had catastrophic repercussion beyond his own intention. I wouldn't call this evil necessarily, but definitely not good either.
If he had known what would happen, then it definitely would fall towards Evil.
I think here the emphasis again would be, Aroden was lawful neutral, not lawful good.
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Maybe a dumb question but what other questionable/distubring things did Aroden do in the official storyline?I'll give you another example from the Tyrant's Grasp AP:
** spoiler omitted **
To be fair, he didn't plan to die .
I think by this time, Aroden hadn't been walking Golarion like Caine in Kung-Fu so he might have actually just been finally acknowledging the 'Gods Stay in Godland' Compact.Aroden has accomplished plenty of good deeds. I'm not saying he never did good things. Defeating Tar-Baphon and Deskari both strike me as "save the region" actions, for example.
He's a complex deity, certainly, and it's a disservice to his mythology to assume that one thing defines him.
I would also think that not saving Arazni was a tactical choice.
He may have very much wanted to have saved her, but feared it a trap. Ultimately Aroden did end up dying/disappearing so his fears weren't completely unfounded.
I think perhaps on a personal level he wished to save her, but felt the risks we're too high, and being a lawful neutral deity, didn't feel compelled to risk himself to do it the way a good god would have.
I never thought of that. Good point! Especially considering he's a lawful god (I suspect a CG or even CN god would try to save her via some kind of loophole.)
He abadoned her cause hes careless, he doesn't seem to comprehend what his actions will do. I wouldn't be suprised of trap that got him killed was of his own doing.That might explain how Pharasma never saw it happening.
Eh, I'm pretty sure she did see it coming if Aroden died.
Yeah that's right. I don't believe he's dead until I see a body!
I thought Pharasma did see it coming, she just didn't bother to share this information with anybody else for reasons that she has kept private.
Whilst not as familiar with all of Aroden's law the descriptions and lore vids of I have watched of him don't paint him as especially lawful. He seems to have a habit of acting on impulse to create things that interest at the time, seems to lift up people based on what is useful to him at the time but as quickly abandons them and moves on to the next project he finds interesting. Nothing in him says he sticks by his commitments or that he is especially lawful. I can understand he created lawful societies and a lawful church but the act of doing so does not make him lawful.
I accept his followers and church as lawful but struggle to see someone that changes projects as often as he seems to and doesn't think through or seem to care about the consequences of their actions are lawful. He seems more neutral or even chaotic. He does what interests him at the time then moves on.
Does someone have good examples of how Aroden (not his followers, church or creations) is lawful or acts in a lawful way?
It's interesting that the god of prophecy is so... Reckless? You'd think an understanding of fate and the big picture would influence his actions such that there would be good long view reasons for his questionable acts.
Though, maybe I misunderstand what it means to be the god of prophecy.
Aroden wasn’t a god of prophecy.
I mean, Lawful just means he prefers order to chaos. It doesn't mean he can't be hypocritical :p
Does sort of make you wonder what Lawful means, though. Some of the older material talks about honor, tradition, reliability, that kind of thing... but that doesn't seem to really be the case when you look at gods like Azmodeus and Aroden (and on the flip side, honorable combat being a cornerstone of the chaotic god Gorum's portfolio who doesn't even accept lawful worshippers).
Can it be?
Is this the new 'alignment thread'!?
Can it be?
Is this the new 'alignment thread'!?
DIBS!
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This discussion just reminded me of something. One houserule I did was that I'm allowing champions to select any cause regardless of their alignment, as long as their deity allows followers of the cause's alignment, with the proviso that they still have to follow the cause's tenants to the letter. I look forward getting my first LN or NE Liberator of Arazni.
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What about someone who used to be a paladin in Lastwall, lost everything when it fell, and is now in it for vengeance? The fall of organized military defence could have thrown them into a crisis of faith, and the partisan resistance of the Knights Reclaimant could be pretty appealing. And Arazni as a sort of patron saint of abandoned paladins.
Aroden wasn’t a god of prophecy.Indeed. He was 'merely' a God who there was a very important prophecy about.
His actual listed areas of interest are Humanity, Innovation, History, Culture, and the fulfillment of destiny.
And yeah, he was both kind of reckless and a colossal dick a lot of the time.
ah, the way all the age of lost omens material is framed makes it seem like "The god of prophecy died, so prophecy doesn't work anymore, so all bets are off" But now that I'm re-reading it I see that you're right, the reason we know prophecy stopped working is because Aroden died instead of returning, where a prophecy said he was supposed to.
Aroden wasn’t a god of prophecy.Indeed. He was 'merely' a God who there was a very important prophecy about.
His actual listed areas of interest are Humanity, Innovation, History, Culture, and the fulfillment of destiny.
And yeah, he was both kind of reckless and a colossal dick a lot of the time.
ah, the way all the age of lost omens material is framed makes it seem like "The god of prophecy died, so prophecy doesn't work anymore, so all bets are off" But now that I'm re-reading it I see that you're right, the reason we know prophecy stopped working is because Aroden died instead of returning, where a prophecy said he was supposed to.
What about someone who used to be a paladin in Lastwall, lost everything when it fell, and is now in it for vengeance? The fall of organized military defence could have thrown them into a crisis of faith, and the partisan resistance of the Knights Reclaimant could be pretty appealing. And Arazni as a sort of patron saint of abandoned paladins.
Yup, in fact Gods and Magic mentions them in her entry and that she grudgingly acknowledges that they hate the Tyrant almost as much as she does.
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ah, the way all the age of lost omens material is framed makes it seem like "The god of prophecy died, so prophecy doesn't work anymore, so all bets are off" But now that I'm re-reading it I see that you're right, the reason we know prophecy stopped working is because Aroden died instead of returning, where a prophecy said he was supposed to.
Right.
It's possible that his death was what killed prophecy, but if so it's because that death thwarted such a major prophecy, not because he had personal abilities related to such things.
It's equally possible that his death was a symptom of what happened rather than a cause. Several other important events happened at the same time in various places (the fall of Imperial Lung Wa, the Eye of Abendego coming into being, etc.), making this theory plausible to me at least.
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ah, the way all the age of lost omens material is framed makes it seem like "The god of prophecy died, so prophecy doesn't work anymore, so all bets are off" But now that I'm re-reading it I see that you're right, the reason we know prophecy stopped working is because Aroden died instead of returning, where a prophecy said he was supposed to.Right.
It's possible that his death was what killed prophecy, but if so it's because that death thwarted such a major prophecy, not because he had personal abilities related to such things.
It's equally possible that his death was a symptom of what happened rather than a cause. Several other important events happened at the same time in various places (the fall of Imperial Lung Wa, the Eye of Abendego coming into being, etc.), making this theory plausible to me at least.
The seal disappearing and Pharasma not knowing what it means...
And were there others? A 'Charlie's Angels' setup requires three 'angels' to Aroden's 'Charlie...' :) They've got a tank (Iomedae), a caster (Arazni), so perhaps a skillmonkey? (Ah yes, secretly Norgorber is a goddess under that cowl, and the third of 'Aroden's Angels!'Until the death of Aroden in 4606 AR, the goddess Milani was simply one of dozens of saints within the Last Azlanti's faith. She was the beacon of hope to all those who fought against repressive regimes, giving courage to those who had little but their desire to live a free life. The death of her patron, combined with the tremendous upheaval and suffering that followed his death, gave her a focus and attracted many new followers. Those devoted to her found the courage to organize the rebellions against the infernal takeover of the Chelish Empire, helping many of her outlying territories break free of its control. They fought against the slow slide into barbarism, restoring people's hope that a just and good society could be restored. Milani has never been as popular as Aroden's other followers, such as Iomedae, perhaps because the Inheritor's worship had already been firmly established before their patron's passing.
The interesting thing is that Milani is Chaotic Good, so a pretty far cry from Aroden's Lawful Neutral. Although she's working together pretty well with Iomedae these days.
In PF1, Milani had the Rose Warden prestige class associated with her, which was really well-suited to put on top of a rogue...
Having read about Milani in Inner sea Faiths. she feels FAR more like NG than CG. Quite frankly I think that what she should have been. IMO
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Whilst not as familiar with all of Aroden's law the descriptions and lore vids of I have watched of him don't paint him as especially lawful. He seems to have a habit of acting on impulse to create things that interest at the time, seems to lift up people based on what is useful to him at the time but as quickly abandons them and moves on to the next project he finds interesting. Nothing in him says he sticks by his commitments or that he is especially lawful. I can understand he created lawful societies and a lawful church but the act of doing so does not make him lawful.
I accept his followers and church as lawful but struggle to see someone that changes projects as often as he seems to and doesn't think through or seem to care about the consequences of their actions are lawful. He seems more neutral or even chaotic. He does what interests him at the time then moves on.
Does someone have good examples of how Aroden (not his followers, church or creations) is lawful or acts in a lawful way?
He dedicated his life and later his divinity to salvaging the culture and science of his homeland, to supporting conquering empires, to making Golarion safe for his people and to molding Humanity as much as he could in becoming what he planned for them.
Except for the Prophecy part, he was pretty much the God-Emperor of Golarion.
Heavily Lawful IMO. Striving for a perfect universe with himself at the top.
Creative Director
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I feel something like a disconnect that a Cleric of Evil Arazni can be Good while a Cleric of Neutral Gorum cannot and a Cleric of Asmodeus cannot even be Neutral.
Evil Clerics of Arazni might even be next on her list.
That's a difference between a brand new deity (Arazni) who's still finding her place in the setting, and a deity that's been around for tens of thousands of years or more (Gorum and Asmodeus) and have long since settled into their role.
In time, Arazni's alignment and allowed worshipers will adjust. We'll not hide that from folks when or if it occurs.
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I mean how Long ago did her new role start? few months a year at most?
For a deity that is Nothing, so no surprise that she is not yet settled in.
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I mean how Long ago did her new role start? few months a year at most?
For a deity that is Nothing, so no surprise that she is not yet settled in.
She's hardly nothing. She's been granting spells to followers for quite some time already, but it wasn't until the edition change (aka about a year ago) that she ascended to the deity level you see in Gods & Magic.
Wasn't there a small faction of Lastwall Knights who faithfully kept Arazni's original philosophy and traditions alive? Of course, since they were already a small minority of Lastwall Knights who in turn only had a minority survive Tar-Baphon's nuke. What are the odds any of them are left?
Wasn't there a small faction of Lastwall Knights who faithfully kept Arazni's original philosophy and traditions alive? Of course, since they were already a small minority of Lastwall Knights who in turn only had a minority survive Tar-Baphon's nuke. What are the odds any of them are left?
Minor.
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Arazni is the betting favorite to be the power behind the mysterious Crimson Oath though.
I dont think he meant Arazni is nothing, that the time frame is nothing compared to the eons gods can work with.She's hardly nothing. She's been granting spells to followers for quite some time already, but it wasn't until the edition change (aka about a year ago) that she ascended to the deity level you see in Gods & Magic.I mean how Long ago did her new role start? few months a year at most?
For a deity that is Nothing, so no surprise that she is not yet settled in.
That is what I was trying to say, yes.
Re-reading Tyrant's Grasp, I noticed it said Aroden left his followers high and dry when they were going to fight the Tyrant, thus Arazni having to help in the first place. Honestly, all of this makes Aroden look REALLY bad IMO. I think it would be better if he was too busy helping followers on another planet (we know there are other planets with humans in the Pathfinder universe, after all), and that's why he couldn't help.
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Aroden isn't usually treated especially positively in Pathfinder. Remember he was a lawful neutral human chauvinist. There's no reason he can't be as petty, short-sighted, and responsible for as much harm as, say, Abadar.
Yes, but abandoning your best friend in need seems more than just LN to me.