Hello,
I was wondering. Since persistent is double on a crit but not splash and when you hit with a Sticky Bomb, the target take persistant damage equal to the splash damage. On a crit, does this persistant double or not ?
|
Where are you reading that persistent damage is doubled on a Crit?
You don't take persistent damage until the end of each of your turns.
For example, if you threw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature would take 1d6 persistent acid damage and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it would take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target would take 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage would still be 1. If you missed, the target would take 1 splash damage. If you critically failed, no one would take any damage.
P.544 Core Rulebook
|
|
Gotcha. Persistent damage doesn't normally double on a Crit. That's just an effect of the Acid Flask Bombs.
If you use the Sticky Bomb feat to create a Lesser Acid Flask, the persistent damage on a Crit would be 2d6+1.
STICKY BOMB
You mix in an additive to make your bomb’s contents adhere to the target and continue to deal damage. A creature that takes a direct hit from one of your sticky bombs also takes persistent damage equal to and of the same type as the bomb’s splash damage. If the bomb already deals persistent damage, combine the two amounts.
Ok, thanks for the response. So other persistant bombs (like the fire one) doesnt double on crit ? It's just the acid one ?
|
|
Indeed. There's no general rule that persistent damage doubles on a Crit. A Lesser Alchemist's Fire, for example, deals "1d8 fire damage", whereas a Lesser Acid Flask deals "1d6 persistent acid damage".
In fact, I'll bet the example you initially quoted was provided as a stealth clarification that Acid Flasks double their damage on a Crit, because otherwise I think the argument would be against that happening.
Oh .. didn't see your response Thenobledrake sorry
So my question is on a Crit Sticky bomb with Acid Flask, it's 2d6+1, the persistant who come from Sticky doesn't double.
And for a Fire crit normal bomb, does the 1 persistant double ?
And for Fire Crit Sticky bomb, the splash from Stricky doesn't double either ?
Sorry for this questions, i just want to be sure to not misunderstand
|
I think persistent damage is actually doubled on a crit, look as spells such as Acid Arrow which specify that the persistent damage is not doubled on a crit (if the general rule was that persistent damage isn’t doubled, this wouldn’t be necessary). Look at monsters like the Ankreg which have persistent damage on a basic save.
The relevant text on 544 is as follows
For example, if you threw a lesser acid flask and hit your target, that creature would take 1d6 persistent acid damage and 1 acid splash damage. All other creatures within 5 feet of it would take 1 acid splash damage. On a critical hit, the target would take 2d6 persistent acid damage, but the splash damage would still be 1. If you missed, the target would take 1 splash damage. If you critically failed, no one would take any damage.
This is in the splash damage section to specify that splash damage doesn’t crit, not that persistent damage can’t crit.
As for OP’s question, Sticky Bomb (IMO) increases the persistent damage by the splash, and, of course, the persistent part can crit so (IMO) that extra persistent damage can crit.
|
|
Persistent Damage is a Condition. It isn't possible to achieve a Crit with a Condition. There is never a d20 rolled.
But Pathfinder is full of specific exceptions.
In the rare instance when the amount of Persistent Damage is directly determined from a Strike (such as with an Acid Flask bomb), then that amount of Persistent Damage would indeed be doubled.
That is then why acid arrow has to specify that its Persistent Damage is not multiplied on a Crit.
|
|
Persistent Damage is a Condition. It isn't possible to achieve a Crit with a Condition. There is never a d20 rolled.
But Pathfinder is full of specific exceptions.
In the rare instance when the amount of Persistent Damage is directly determined from a Strike (such as with an Acid Flask bomb), then that amount of Persistent Damage would indeed be doubled.
That is then why acid arrow has to specify that its Persistent Damage is not multiplied on a Crit.
In this case the persistent damage is directly determined from a Strike. As is the case for Alchemist's Fire normally. If the Strike is a miss, no persistent damage is dealt.
This would be like arguing that flat damage doesn't double on a crit, which it obviously does.
Persistent damage might be a condition, but it's also a type of damage, and the rules for damage say its doubled on a crit.
|
|
If that rule exists somewhere, I would like to see it. I asked for a citation in my very first post.
Sure, page 451 says
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.
Under the section "roll the damage" it mentions persistent damage
Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition.
So we know persistent damage is a type of damage, and damage is always doubled on a critical hit. So far, no rule contradicts this.
Page 621 tells you how persistent damage works in greater detail. Again, nothing says it doesn't double on a crit, only that you have to roll the damage dice anew at the end of each turn (which is slightly awkward, as you have to remember that it did crit if you aren't rolling the dice twice).
Page 623 also as nothing that contradicts this.
What is the source for your interpretation?
Zakapouik, these people are crazy wrong. The persistent damage from sticky bombs doubles on a critical.
Well i'm very confuse now ^^
So an Acid Flask Sticky Bomb 2d6 persistant + 2 direct damage + 1 splash + 2 persistant (from the sticky rules) on a crit ?
And an Alchemist Fire Sticky Bomb is 2d8 direct damage + 2 persistant + 1 splash + 2 persistant (frome the sticky rules) on a crit ?
I have to agree. Nothing in the rules says that the Persistent Damage from Alchemist's Fire wouldn't be doubled. Persistent Damage is a type of damage, just like Slashing Damage. Why would I double the +4 Damage I get from my Strength with a Longsword, but not the +1 Damage I get from the Alchemist's Fire?
The timing of when you take the Damage has no bearing on the amount of Damage.
Well i'm very confuse now ^^
So an Acid Flask Sticky Bomb 2d6 persistant + 2 direct damage + 1 splash + 2 persistant (from the sticky rules) on a crit ?
And an Alchemist Fire Sticky Bomb is 2d8 direct damage + 2 persistant + 1 splash + 2 persistant (frome the sticky rules) on a crit ?
It's not 2d6, it's double. So
Acid flask sticky bomb persistent damage on a critical is 2*(1d6+1) rolled at the end of the targets turn each time.
You can either roll 2D6 or double the result from 1D6. That's just personal preference of the GM.
|
|
If that rule exists somewhere, I would like to see it. I asked for a citation in my very first post.Sure, page 451 says
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.Under the section "roll the damage" it mentions persistent damage
Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition.So we know persistent damage is a type of damage, and damage is always doubled on a critical hit. So far, no rule contradicts this.
Page 621 tells you how persistent damage works in greater detail. Again, nothing says it doesn't double on a crit, only that you have to roll the damage dice anew at the end of each turn (which is slightly awkward, as you have to remember that it did crit if you aren't rolling the dice twice).
Page 623 also as nothing that contradicts this.
What is the source for your interpretation?
So, I'm not arguing against any of that. I even highlighted earlier (twice) that if the Persistent Damage is directly determined by the Strike (which is where you get your Crit from), then that damage is multiplied. The Acid Flask example highlighted multiple times already clearly shows that.
But that is an extreme minority of instances. Acid Flask is actually the only instance I am aware of (since, again as mentioned, acid arrow excludes the damage from being multiplied).
For every other instance of Persistent Damage, there is no d20 being rolled, so there cannot be a Crit. Persistent Damage is a Condition, not an attack.
Does that make sense?
If that rule exists somewhere, I would like to see it. I asked for a citation in my very first post.Sure, page 451 says
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.Under the section "roll the damage" it mentions persistent damage
Persistent damage is a condition that causes damage to recur beyond the original effect. Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition.So we know persistent damage is a type of damage, and damage is always doubled on a critical hit. So far, no rule contradicts this.
Page 621 tells you how persistent damage works in greater detail. Again, nothing says it doesn't double on a crit, only that you have to roll the damage dice anew at the end of each turn (which is slightly awkward, as you have to remember that it did crit if you aren't rolling the dice twice).
Page 623 also as nothing that contradicts this.
What is the source for your interpretation?
So, I'm not arguing against any of that. I even highlighted earlier (twice) that if the Persistent Damage is directly determined by the Strike (which is where you get your Crit from), then that damage is multiplied. The Acid Flask example highlighted multiple times already clearly shows that.
But that is an extreme minority of instances. Acid Flask is actually the only instance I am aware of (since, again as mentioned, acid arrow excludes the damage from being multiplied).
For every other instance of Persistent...
But the OP's question is specifically asking about instances where the Persistent Damage is the result of a Strike. So yes, it would be doubled. As would the Persistent Damage from a standard Alchemist's Fire, which also depends on a Strike.
Neither of those are doubled.
You have yet to provide a reason why. They rely on Strikes just like an Acid Flask does. You're just arbitrarily deciding that Acid Flask doubles and the others don't.
|
The Splash Trait prohibits the doubling of splash damage.
However, the damage from a lesser Alchemist Fire, which normally causes 1d8 plus +1 persistent fire and +1 splash damage, on a critical hit would cause instead 1d8x2 plus 2 persistent fire damage, and +1 splash damage. See doubling and halving damage below. It does not say anything about persistent not being doubled if it is part of the normal damage.
This is new for me, I must admit.
Sometimes you’ll need to halve or double an amount of damage, such as when the outcome of your Strike is a critical hit, or when you succeed at a basic Reflex save against a spell. When this happens, you roll the damage normally, adding all the normal modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Then you double or halve the amount as appropriate (rounding down if you halved it). The GM might allow you to roll the dice twice and double the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties instead of doubling the entire result, but this usually works best for single-target attacks or spells at low levels when you have a small number of damage dice to roll. Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Neither of those are doubled.You have yet to provide a reason why. They rely on Strikes just like an Acid Flask does.You're just arbitrarily deciding that Acid Flask doubles and the others don't.
I must not be explaining this well. I'll try a different avenue.
A strike with an Alchemist Fire does three things: 1) inflicts damage, 2) applies the Persistent Damage Condition, and 3) Splashes.
You wouldn't double the value of the Persistent Condition anymore than you would double the value of any other penalty such as from, say, a Strike that inflicted the Flat-Footed Condition.
Again, there is no d20 being rolled for the Persistent Damage (except in the case of the Acid Flask). That Condition comes later. The d20 that was rolled was for the Strike, only.
Similarly, the Sticky Bomb's Persistent Damage is determined by the Splash, which is also not doubled, so a crit from a Sticky Lesser Acid Flask is indeed only 2d6+1, and not 2d6+2.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Zakapouik
If you're still confused, sticky bomb says it does persistent damage "equal to" the bomb's splash damage. The persistent damage is not splash damage, that's just how you determine the amount. Since the persistent damage is not slash damage it doubles on the critical.
You yourself already found a clear example that persistent damage doubles on a critical with acid flask. A lot of people on this forum know a lot less than you do, so be weary…
|
|
Apparently this discussion isn't new.
It's also been asked in the Stickied thread at the top of this Forum.
I found two posts where different users recall Jason Bulmahn stating in a YouTube interview that Persistent Damage isn't doubled on a Crit, but without being able to find that interview myself, I'll hold judgment until someone can.
Given how often it seems this question comes up, ask your GM how they rule it and move on with the round.
|
|
Apparently this discussion isn't new.
It's also been asked in the Stickied thread at the top of this Forum.
I found two posts where different users recall Jason Bulmahn stating in a YouTube interview that Persistent Damage isn't doubled on a Crit, but without being able to find that interview myself, I'll hold judgment until someone can.
Given how often it seems this question comes up, ask your GM how they rule it and move on with the round.
You know as well I that YouTube comments are not binding.
What is it you say, if you don't have a link, it doesn't count? Or something like that.
After reading the section of the rules I quoted in my earlier post, I do think that the persistent damage is doubled on a crit. Why? Because the rules for doubling don't exclude any special or specific damage. The only thing it excludes is damage added from a weapon trait, like a critical effect.
So this is something that will need to be part of an errata otherwise there will GM applying the rules differently. As for us who play in Organized Play, that is a HUGE problem. So hopefully someone in authority can comment here.
Anyone?
Do you also multiply the values of other Conditions on a Crit?
Does Frightened 2 become Frightened 4?
If you don't, then why?
No. Because it's not Damage. That isn't relevant at all.
You wouldn't apply Weakness or Resistance to Frightened either. But you do apply those to Persistent Damage. Because it's Damage.
Persistent Damage doubling on a crit would be the only way a Alchemist would be playable.
There is at least one example in the Core Rule book of Persistent Damage being doubled.
How the condition is applied to you can absolutely make you go from Frightened 1 to Frightened 2 (Fear and Demoralize both worth this way). Frightening Strike (the fighter feat) works that way.
Stunning Fist goes from Stunned 1 to Stunned 3.
Dying has extra effects on a Crit Succ/Fail.
The same applies for many other effects that apply conditions, they generally have an extra effect on a critical success or a critical failure. I find this again and again in the core rule book.
There is nothing in the rules that leads me to believe Persistent Damage does NOT double on a crit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The same applies for many other effects that apply conditions, they generally have an extra effect on a critical success or a critical failure. I find this again and again in the core rule book.
Those are all specific features of those abilities, though.
Without really taking a position, I think that makes those poor examples because they're all, essentially, exceptions to the normal rules.
Intimidating Strike upgrades its condition on a crit because it says it does, not because that's how conditions work generally.
The confusion I think here comes from Persistent Damage being called 'damage', which doubles on a crit from a strike or basic save, but also being listed as a condition, which just happens to have damage as its effect, which don't double unless explicitly stated to.
The strongest argument is there is a specific example in the CRB stating Persistent Damage doubles on a Critical.
No where else in the Rules is there anything even hinting they don't double.
There is nothing in the rules talking about how Criticals and conditions work.
|
|
So, for the (fourth?) time now, and multiple times in the other threads, that example is not being contested. But it doesn't represent the whole argument. When the amount of Damage is directly determined by the success of your Strike (which for Acid Flasks, it is), then that amount is multiplied on a Crit just like any other Strike.
Nobody (at least in this thread) is arguing that.
But for virtually every other instance of Persistent Damage, the Condition is just a rider effect of the Strike. Alchemist Fire is ideal example of this. It 1) deals damage, 2) applies a Condition, and 3) splashes. We are not told anywhere that Persistent Damage is multiplied on a Crit, as a general rule, and how could it be? There is no d20 being rolled. Persistent Damage is automatic.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So the problematic example on page 544 is an example for how the Splash trait works. It shows an acid flask crit inflicting double persistent damage. There's nothing in there calling out acid as being special and that only acid causes double persistent.
In the actual description of Acid Flasks, there is no mention of critical hits or that they treat those unusually. So no evidence there that it's a special property of acid flasks that they cause double persistent on a crit.
So that leaves us with a couple of potential scenarios:
1) The example is wrong. Critical hits don't cause double persistent damage.
2) The example is right, but it's a special property only of acid flasks. The acid flask description is wrong because it's missing that information.
3) The example is right, any persistent damage is doubled on critical hits, not just acid flasks. When the rules for critical hits say you inflict double damage, that includes persistent damage (which is a type of damage), but not splash damage (because it has an explicit exception discussed under the splash trait section).
I'm leaning towards the third scenario.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
HERE is a step-by-step breakdown of how damage and persistent damage are handled together.
Nothing there indicates that Persistent Damage isn't doubled like all other non-critical only Damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the problematic example on page 544 is an example for how the Splash trait works. It shows an acid flask crit inflicting double persistent damage. There's nothing in there calling out acid as being special and that only acid causes double persistent.
And that's why its the WORST example to have used there.
|
|
So the problematic example on page 544 is an example for how the Splash trait works. It shows an acid flask crit inflicting double persistent damage. There's nothing in there calling out acid as being special and that only acid causes double persistent.And that's why its the WORST example to have used there.
Yeah, if the example had used an alchemist's fire, we would be having the same discussion about whether alchemist's fire was special somehow - without mentioning it in its own description.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah just to clarify the rules are straight forward that Persistent Damage is normally doubled on a critical hit like normal damage. Its restated in the FAQ p585 where is mentions persistent damage doubles on a critical hit as a general rule. That doesn't rule out a specific case where something else happens on a critical hit, but it is the rule unless you see something else.
There is specific rule in the Splash Trait which says You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit. Many alchemical items including acid flasks which have this trait.
Sticky Bombs would potentially double the persistent damage but not the splash damage (two different lots of damage) on a critical hit.
So a normal hit from a sticky lesser acid flask would do 1 acid damage, plus 1 splash damage, and 1d6+1 persistent acid damage.
A critical hit from a sticky lesser acid flask would do would do 2 acid damage, plus 1 splash damage, and 2x(1d6+1) persistent acid damage.
The order of the Sticky Bombs free action means that the persistent damage from the splash happens on the hit, so before you get into the damage equation. So it is persistent damage not splash damage any more.
There should not be any confusion here.