Official Lost Omens clarification, errata, and FAQ thread


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Paizo Employee Developer

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Hey, there! I have some big news today. We've officially added a number of Lost Omens products to the Pathfinder FAQ page.

To start things off, we have entries for the Lost Omens World Guide, Character Guide, and Gods & Magic, as well as a few quick clarifications for The Mwangi Expanse.

Going forward, we ask that all questions, requests for clarifications, and flags for Lost Omens errata be placed in this thread. It will helps us keep track of all possible changes in one centralized spot. If you happen to see a question or something that could be flagged for errata elsewhere, feel free to drop it here!

I'm hoping to keep regular batches of updates going for the Lost Omens products and I plan to announce when additional entries and changes are added to the FAQ.

For now, thanks to everyone that's been asking questions and helping us clean up and improve our Lost Omens books! We hope you continue to enjoy the Lost Omens line and look forward both to new books and updates for our existing books. :)


In the Anadi Ancestry, under "Change Shape" there is the following text"

Quote:
In your spider shape, you aren’t flat-footed when climbing, but you can’t use weapons, shields, or other held items of any sort nor can you take any action that has the manipulate trait.

Are these restrictions only when climbing or are they general restrictions to "being a large spider". If an Anadi can't use manipulate actions when in their natural spider form, how exactly do they weave those blankets or do that transmutation magic? Or open doors, or offer a plate of fruit to fellow students in the library?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

In the Anadi Ancestry, under "Change Shape" there is the following text"

Quote:
In your spider shape, you aren’t flat-footed when climbing, but you can’t use weapons, shields, or other held items of any sort nor can you take any action that has the manipulate trait.
Are these restrictions only when climbing or are they general restrictions to "being a large spider". If an Anadi can't use manipulate actions when in their natural spider form, how exactly do they weave those blankets or do that transmutation magic? Or open doors, or offer a plate of fruit to fellow students in the library?

Answered on the FAQ page.

Edit: exact text:

Page 103: The Anadi Change Shape ability should allow a different set of actions in spider form to allow more manipulate actions than it currently does. Change it to say "You change into your human or spider shape. Each shape has a specific, persistent appearance. In your human shape, you can’t use unarmed attacks granted by your ancestry. You aren’t flat footed when climbing in your spider shape. However, in your spider shape you can’t use weapons, shields, or other held items of any sort, and you are limited in what actions you can take that have the manipulate trait. The only manipulate actions you can take are to Cast a Spell with somatic components, weave silk or webbing, or simple Interact actions such as opening an unlocked door. Your spider legs can't perform actions that require fingers or significant manual dexterity, including any action that would require a check to accomplish. The GM might determine other manipulate actions are appropriate for your spider legs"


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Bladed scarf is now finesse. That's nice.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Luis Loza wrote:

Hey, there! I have some big news today. We've officially added a number of Lost Omens products to the Pathfinder FAQ page.

To start things off, we have entries for the Lost Omens World Guide, Character Guide, and Gods & Magic, as well as a few quick clarifications for The Mwangi Expanse.

Going forward, we ask that all questions, requests for clarifications, and flags for Lost Omens errata be placed in this thread. It will helps us keep track of all possible changes in one centralized spot. If you happen to see a question or something that could be flagged for errata elsewhere, feel free to drop it here!

I'm hoping to keep regular batches of updates going for the Lost Omens products and I plan to announce when additional entries and changes are added to the FAQ.

For now, thanks to everyone that's been asking questions and helping us clean up and improve our Lost Omens books! We hope you continue to enjoy the Lost Omens line and look forward both to new books and updates for our existing books. :)

Nice, thanks for the errata/clarifications!


Thank you all so much for this!


Guntermench wrote:
Bladed scarf is now finesse. That's nice.

Really nice for Investigators. Especially with Athletic Strategist.


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So glad to see that this errata has been issued and this thread created for reporting other issues! I did actually notice one while reading through The Mwangi Expanse today. The shisk feat Quill Spray allows a saving throw, but doesn't specify what type of save needs to be made (I assume Reflex, but it isn't actually listed in the text at the moment).


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Gisher wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Bladed scarf is now finesse. That's nice.
Really nice for Investigators. Especially with Athletic Strategist.

It's a nice alternative to the whip for swashbucklers.


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Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Thank you for the work!


* Web Walker VS shadow chains via Velstrac Magic
* Anadi with the Form of the Fiend feat


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I have a request for the lizardfolk: their claw attack has no weapon group, so it has no critical specialization. Is this intended? Every other ancestry unarmed attack I've looked at has one listed, generally brawling.


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Hoo boy, do I have quite a few potential clarifications that I came across:

Life Leap has the necromancy and teleportation traits, but not the magical trait or a tradition trait (which implies the magical trait).

Fruit Leshy heritage refers to the necromancy trait, but not the magical trait or a tradition trait. (It would most likely be primal)

Crimson Shroud talks about spending an Interact action to increase AC, but due to the inherent dual-wielding nature of the Red Mantis Assassins, this Interact action would almost never be able to be taken due to not having a free hand.

Several deities have cleric-granted spells listed that are already on the divine list, and based on a similar errata that changed that with Desna and Iomedae, I feel this isn’t intentional:

Deities that “grant” divine spells:
Dhalavei: fear
Eritrice: comprehend language
Followers of Fate: prying eye
Gruhastha: comprehend language
Kelizandri: fear
Naderi: drop dead
Nethys: prying eye Technically not in the Lost Omen line, but I thought I’d lump him in here anyway since I was talking about it anyway
Thoth: comprehend language
Winlas: comprehend language

Naderi lists crushing despair as a 4th-level spell; crushing despair is a 5th-level spell.

Also, is this thread only for clarifications, etc. in the Lost Omens line, or are main-book lines (like the APG or the Core) good here too?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Prooooooobably only Lost Omens books, given their overall short page count and whatnot.

There's other threads on the Paizo forums that cover the various hardcover books, and those are probably not gonna get adjusted until a reprint (unless they change their mind, or start adding actual FAQ to the FAQ/errata page).


I'm kind of disappointed that they opened up Anadi to spellcasting, but left out Inventor actions (assuming those are still going to have the manipulate trait).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Well the important thing is in the lore the Anadi became adept at magic, so it didn't make sense for them to not be able to cast most spells in spider form. I don't believe we've seen any such lore basis for inventor Anadi.


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KingTreyIII wrote:

Naderi lists crushing despair as a 4th-level spell; crushing despair is a 5th-level spell.

I've been wondering about this as well. Two other deities also do this: Charon and Sifkesh.

In addition, Naderi and Sifkesh grant another 5th level spell along with the "4th" level Crushing Despair. Charon does not.


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PlantThings wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:

Naderi lists crushing despair as a 4th-level spell; crushing despair is a 5th-level spell.

I've been wondering about this as well. Two other deities also do this: Charon and Sifkesh.

In addition, Naderi and Sifkesh grant another 5th level spell along with the "4th" level Crushing Despair. Charon does not.

Really interesting. Red Dragons get Crushing Despair as a 4th level spell as well. I had thought that was an error, but maybe it's supposed to be a 4th level spell.


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Gisher wrote:
Really interesting. Red Dragons get Crushing Despair as a 4th level spell as well. I had thought that was an error, but maybe it's supposed to be a 4th level spell.

Oh wow, I never considered that. It does make more sense now as a 4th level spell to avoid any overlap with those 5th level deity spells.

Dataphiles

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Oath of the Devoted needs a wording cleanup

Oath of the Devoted wrote:
Activate Single Action command; Frequency once per day; Effect You gain a +1 status bonus to Will saves. Choose a weapon or an unarmed Strike; your chosen attack deals an extra 1d6 fire damage for the next 1 minute.

The first sentence should probably specify "You gain a +1 status bonus to Will saves for 1 minute"


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I was going to ask if these changes would be put into effect on AoN, but it already looks like they are. Pathfinder's Pouch has lost the Consumable trait, for example.

Also I'll add my voice to those that are super super super super glad for this thread. Thanks guys; incredibly appreciated for all the work you do!

Shadow Lodge

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Hmm. With the FAQ on Anadi, what about monk stances? Do stances that ask for hands work with spider legs? (Example: cobra stance). You're not using them to manipulate anything, so...

Scarab Sages

AFigureOfBlue wrote:
So glad to see that this errata has been issued and this thread created for reporting other issues! I did actually notice one while reading through The Mwangi Expanse today. The shisk feat Quill Spray allows a saving throw, but doesn't specify what type of save needs to be made (I assume Reflex, but it isn't actually listed in the text at the moment).

Follow up question: Is there a recharge time on Quill Spray? One of my local players pointed out that as-written, it can currently be used every turn, which feels incredibly strong for a Ancestry Feat.


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Falgaia wrote:
Follow up question: Is there a recharge time on Quill Spray? One of my local players pointed out that as-written, it can currently be used every turn, which feels incredibly strong for a Ancestry Feat.

In the book, it has a frequency listed of "once per day". Though it seems that that detail didn't make it onto AoN, which I'll report as a bug with that website.


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Possible errata candidate: Pg 130 of Gods and Magic, Hanspur's 2nd level cleric spell is aqueous orb, a 3rd level spell.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hrmm probably not an errata, but definitely possibly needs a clarification.

The Conrasu in Lost Omens:The Mwangi Expanse, have a sunlight healing ability that can be used on themselves once a day and then they become temporarily immune. But the Eite of Light heritage gives them the option to heal another creature with this ability other than themselves. So could a conrasu with enough time and sun heal multiple people 1 at a time or is this supposed to still only be a once per day thing?

Rite of Light, Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse, pg. 107 wrote:
Your exoskeleton bears small shoots that can share life. When using your Sunlight Healing, you can restore the Hit Points of an adjacent ally instead of yourself. That ally becomes temporarily immune to all uses of Sunlight Healing for 1 day.


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Sedoriku wrote:

Hrmm probably not an errata, but definitely possibly needs a clarification.

The Conrasu in Lost Omens:The Mwangi Expanse, have a sunlight healing ability that can be used on themselves once a day and then they become temporarily immune. But the Eite of Light heritage gives them the option to heal another creature with this ability other than themselves. So could a conrasu with enough time and sun heal multiple people 1 at a time or is this supposed to still only be a once per day thing?

Rite of Light, Lost Omens: The Mwangi Expanse, pg. 107 wrote:
Your exoskeleton bears small shoots that can share life. When using your Sunlight Healing, you can restore the Hit Points of an adjacent ally instead of yourself. That ally becomes temporarily immune to all uses of Sunlight Healing for 1 day.

Looks like a once per person thing. And I think that's intentional because it's phrased as an immunity for a reason (vs. say the Halfling luck feats). So it's quite nice for 1 PC, but can't be spammed by having multiple party members use it.

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Clarification Request

How does a beastkin or an anadi's Change Shape interact with other polymorph effects?

We need clarification for the logistics of these ancestry/heritage abilities. The rules in the polymorph trait make the assumption that all polymorph effects are non-instantanous. These rules say that polymorph effects replace your form until they are counteracted or removed by other means. When a polymorph is removed, you revert to your natural form. A polymorph effect also counteracts any existing polymorph effect, and you can only have one polymorph effect active.

But how does this work with the beastkin and anadi's Change Shape? They are polymorph effects, but do not have a duration. The text of these abilities say Change Shape transforms you between two forms, but they do not tell you which form is your natural state. This raises a lot of questions. Which form is your natural state? If they're both your natural form, then how does it interact with other polymorph effects? What happens if the effect is counteracted? This all hinges on how Change Shape works for these ancestries/heritages. Contrast the text of these two abilities with the kitsune's Change Shape, which makes it clear that the foxy form is the natural state and that the humanoid form is a polymorph effect with an unlimited duration.

So, how does Change Shape actually work foe these ancestries/heritages? Is it...

A. One of the forms is your natural state, and Change Shape is a polymorph effect that changes you to the other form for an unlimited duration? If this is true, then we need an errata in Change Shape that indicates which form is the natural form.

B. Both forms are your natural state, and Change Shape is merely an instantaneous effect that swaps you between them? If so, this needs to be clarified in an FAQ.

We might also need a clarification of how what happens to your gear for anadi's spider form, but I assume they can wear armor and other gear humanoid gear just fine.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It is already made clear the spider form is the anadi's natural shape, they learned how to make themselves into humans using magic

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silversarcasm wrote:
It is already made clear the spider form is the anadi's natural shape, they learned how to make themselves into humans using magic

This is only one part of the issue. And if so, it's not reflected in the ability's text. It would also mean the ancestry has the humanoid trait despite not being a humanoid creature.


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This has been brought up in another thread, but there is a conflict between the ancestry section and the bestiary section for the anadi. The ancestry section describes their natural forms as "human-sized spiders", but the bestiary section states "their natural forms resemble humanoid spiders".

I'm pretty certain the ancestry section is supposed to be the correct one; However, as Cyrad pointed out, they also inherently have the humanoid trait. That could be explained by the fact that all Anadi have this shapeshifting magic and it is so ingrained in their being that their humanoid form is for all intents and purposes a second natural form. But that explanation isn't really covered by the mechanical side of things, so it could use some clarification.

As an aside, Anadi, even with a climb speed in their natural form, are still affected by the difficult terrain created by web and similar effect. They are also still flat-footed while balancing on their own webs. Especially the former seems rather odd, so that would have room for change as well.


Cyrad wrote:

Clarification Request

How does a beastkin or an anadi's Change Shape interact with other polymorph effects?

We need clarification for the logistics of these ancestry/heritage abilities. The rules in the polymorph trait make the assumption that all polymorph effects are non-instantanous. These rules say that polymorph effects replace your form until they are counteracted or removed by other means. When a polymorph is removed, you revert to your natural form. A polymorph effect also counteracts any existing polymorph effect, and you can only have one polymorph effect active.

But how does this work with the beastkin and anadi's Change Shape? They are polymorph effects, but do not have a duration. The text of these abilities say Change Shape transforms you between two forms, but they do not tell you which form is your natural state. This raises a lot of questions. Which form is your natural state? If they're both your natural form, then how does it interact with other polymorph effects? What happens if the effect is counteracted? This all hinges on how Change Shape works for these ancestries/heritages. Contrast the text of these two abilities with the kitsune's Change Shape, which makes it clear that the foxy form is the natural state and that the humanoid form is a polymorph effect with an unlimited duration.

So, how does Change Shape actually work foe these ancestries/heritages? Is it...

A. One of the forms is your natural state, and Change Shape is a polymorph effect that changes you to the other form for an unlimited duration? If this is true, then we need an errata in Change Shape that indicates which form is the natural form.

B. Both forms are your natural state, and Change Shape is merely an instantaneous effect that swaps you between them? If so, this needs to be clarified in an FAQ.

We might also need a clarification of how what happens to your gear for anadi's spider form, but I assume they can wear armor and other gear humanoid gear just fine.

While I think this really is something that could use explicit spelling out in the rules, I think it already (mostly) works. Here is how my group explains it:

Since these actions do not have a duration, the tags only affect the action, not the forms in general. You use Change Shape, your gear is absorbed and it attempts to counteract any other polymorph effects on you. When you successfully change forms, the result is not a polymorph or magical effect. As such, no form is subject to being counteracted. The gear thing is a tad weird, as you would technically never get it back, which is why I said it mostly works.

Dark Archive

Sincere Question: What things would break for a game with 1 or more Anadi PCs if Anadi didn't have the Humanoid tag?
What common spells and effects would not effect them, effect then differently, or be able to target then when they couldn't target a Humanoid?

Horizon Hunters

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think the only issue is that they can be Beastkin, which would be really weird since their primary form is of a spider, not a humanoid. They should probably have the Beast trait instead, and gain the Humanoid trait when in their Humanoid form only.

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Karmagator wrote:
Since these actions do not have a duration, the tags only affect the action, not the forms in general. You use Change Shape, your gear is absorbed and it attempts to counteract any other polymorph effects on you. When you successfully change forms, the result is not a polymorph or magical effect. As such, no form is subject to being counteracted. The gear thing is a tad weird, as you would technically never get it back, which is why I said it mostly works.

The spider form is not a battle form, so gear wouldn't absorb. I agree it would make more sense if it did absorb or simply reshaped as part of the form, which could be kind of cool if (for example) an anadi gains a fur pattern like the dress she wore.

I do agree that my "B" interpretation is probably the "cleanest" way to make the abilities work -- where the anadi and beastkin's Change Shape are instantaneous polymorph effects that simply swap between two forms. It would mean the action counteracts other polymorph effects, but the forms themselves cannot be counteracted.

This would avoid a lot of weird and awkward interactions. It would also cleanly avoid similar pitfalls of the 1st Edition skinwalker, which (ironically) made for a terrible shapeshifter because their racial polymorph ability did not stack with wild shape and ran afoul of action economy problems when swapping between polymorph effects.


Cyriad, I need answer for this

Laclale♪ wrote:

* Web Walker VS shadow chains via Velstrac Magic

* Anadi with the Form of the Fiend feat


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I mean we also have the case of several creatures that don't have the humanoid tag, that you could describe as humanoid(several fey come to mind) so humanoid arguably means something different then our real world term. (although I wouldn't be surprised if Anadi had something else)


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A possible errata candidate, pg. 109 of Mwangi Expanse, the feat Conrasu Weapon Expertise doesn't seem to list Conrasu Weapon Familiarity as a prerequisite like the other [Insert Ancestry] Expertise feats do.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Are the Conrasu supposed to follow the standard humanoid way of eating/subsisting? Do they just shove food into their soul-ball? They are a plant, but that tag doesn't inherently give them anything like Leshy's Plant Nourishment.


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I wonder if insect form could be added for the beastkin level 17 ability animal shape? Insect style beastkin are used throughout the description of the heritage, it feels a little wonky to not let a beetle beastkin to not have insect form. That being said, it's not the end of the world as one could just appropriate one of the other forms, just feels odd.

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Gaulin wrote:
I wonder if insect form could be added for the beastkin level 17 ability animal shape? Insect style beastkin are used throughout the description of the heritage, it feels a little wonky to not let a beetle beastkin to not have insect form. That being said, it's not the end of the world as one could just appropriate one of the other forms, just feels odd.

Beastkin are just wonky in general. They suffered the most from the Ancestry Guide only having two pages of feats for each versatile heritage. A heritage centered around being a shapeshifting beast-person and the only unarmed attack you can get is a jaws attack.


TheDoomBug wrote:
Are the Conrasu supposed to follow the standard humanoid way of eating/subsisting? Do they just shove food into their soul-ball? They are a plant, but that tag doesn't inherently give them anything like Leshy's Plant Nourishment.

I was wondering about this too. I looked at the Aeon trait for answers but nothing on consumption. It did bring up another mystery; communication.

With some exceptions, Aeons communicate through envisioning, "a strange telepathic hodgepodge of sensory sending." Are Conrasus part of the exception or do they use envisioning? Can they do both? If they do use envisioning, are there official rules for that?


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It also always bothered me that Baalzebul, the Lord of the Flies and a living swarm, doesn’t grant the swarm domain. It could be argued that he despises his swarm form and thus doesn’t grant power over it to his worshipers (similar to his weapon of choice being a longsword, but his favored weapon is the spear), but even so it just feels…odd.

Sovereign Court

PlantThings wrote:
TheDoomBug wrote:
Are the Conrasu supposed to follow the standard humanoid way of eating/subsisting? Do they just shove food into their soul-ball? They are a plant, but that tag doesn't inherently give them anything like Leshy's Plant Nourishment.

I was wondering about this too. I looked at the Aeon trait for answers but nothing on consumption. It did bring up another mystery; communication.

With some exceptions, Aeons communicate through envisioning, "a strange telepathic hodgepodge of sensory sending." Are Conrasus part of the exception or do they use envisioning? Can they do both? If they do use envisioning, are there official rules for that?

PF2 traits don't do quite as much as PF1 creature types do. They're more like hints that "if you're designing a creature of this type, you might want to give it those abilities", whereas in PF1 it was "if it's this type, it automatically has those abilities".

So I guess Conrasu just eat and talk...


Ascalaphus wrote:
So I guess Conrasu just eat and talk...

Yeah, PF2 would tell you if you can't do something instead of telling you can do. So saying nothing about eating, drinking and speech pretty much means 'as normal'.

For instance, Leshy list Plant Nourishment to explain how they eat differently and Anadi don't mention anything, even though spiders do not eat solids but vomit digestive enzymes on prey, chew it up a bit and then suck up the liquid, so they can eat rations like everyone else.

PlantThings: Under Paradox and Unity in the Aeon bestiary entry, it lists axiomites and inevitables, the Aeon listed as not using envisioning, as those that are "mixing the organic" with other concepts. With the Conrasu being a mixture of the organic, it seems a safe bet that they fall into the same category.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Conrasu gain the ability to mimic humanoid speech, but their native language Rasu is how they normally would communicate. I don't see a way anyone other than a Conrasu could learn that language, so it must be their unique way of communicating that we wouldn't even consider a language.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not really a rules clarification, but are there any plans to address how few heritage feats there are for grippli if you aren't Snaptongue or Windweb? And the additional problem with that due to a lack of fallback options?

5th if you lack the heritages? Grippli Weapon Innovator (a ancestry weapon feat, those are unnecessary for most people so I'll ignore them from here on) and Tenacious Net. Which is way too specific and is a very weak option given how it only affects the grab function of the net and how poor the action economy is on nets. Note Grippli are a STR flaw ancestry as well.

9th, same conditions? Absorb Toxin and Ricocheting Leap. Which are incredibly niche in the case of the former and the latter is useless to non-Athletic builds. Options here are okay enough though I suppose, but could still use a little something. Ricocheting Leap is great... on this ancestry that has a STR flaw and thus takes a -1 to jumping compared to other races and gets no feats to offset that.

13th? All you have regardless of ancestries is poisoning crits with weapons or unarmed attacks. Which is good, but useless to anyone that doesn't attack with weapons and verboten to any class or concept that is against using poison. Not a bad feat though.

17th? No options at all because there's not any there.

I hate to sound mean and the rest of the book is 10/10, but how the heck did this tree frog ancestry that's generally worse at climbing and jumping than other ancestries make it to print with so few options and also freakin' penalized in climbing and jumping despite being a frog?

I love you, but what the heck?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

PF2 traits don't do quite as much as PF1 creature types do. They're more like hints that "if you're designing a creature of this type, you might want to give it those abilities", whereas in PF1 it was "if it's this type, it automatically has those abilities".

So I guess Conrasu just eat and talk...

I know that's how tags work; that was my intention. I just wanted to make sure it's intentional that they aren't like Leshy and not a mistake like "Magic spiders can't make webs or cast spells."


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Can we get a clarification on the new dragon types being used for draconic bloodline, not just wyrmblessed? Open question for society play right now, seems like they should be but not clear.

Also, was it intended that forest/sea/crystal dragon can give physical resists through dragon claws and dragon disciple? Physical resists are far more powerful and harder to get than elemental.


TheDoomBug wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
So I guess Conrasu just eat and talk...
I know that's how tags work; that was my intention. I just wanted to make sure it's intentional that they aren't like Leshy and not a mistake like "Magic spiders can't make webs or cast spells."

Yup, same intention on my end. RAW, Conrasus can eat and recover from a Fruit Leshy's fruit just fine, which I'm perfectly all for.

Although, I still wish Conrasus had more description for communication, consumption, and even locomotion for lore purposes.

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