|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This came up in a couple of other discussions in the PF and SF organized play forums, this will deal mostly with Pathfinder organized play.
Several player, myself included, are unhappy with non-Core races being locked behind boons for Society organized play. I had an issue with it in 1E and the 2E AP system, while an improvement, is still too limiting.
I simply do not see a good rational for keeping new races from being played at will in Pathfinder Society. If you bought the book, you should be able to use the race.
The AP system does let you earn points to unlock the race, but it was calculated in the other thread you would have to play once a week for a year to earn a Leshy or Iruxi and one a week for two years for a Hobgoblin. I cannot remember the last time I played once a week.
I think it is unnecessarily limiting to a players options and may turn away new players who do not understand how uncommon races work. There is an Iruxi on the cover of the LO:CG, any new player looking at it would reasonably say "I can play a Lizardman, cool." only to shot down later.
Thought?
Previous discussion threads::
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh3w&page=2?February-Update-A chievement-Points-Stars#63
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42zop?starfinder-races-chart
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, there's a lot more discussion than those two (recent) threads. It goes back to when Race Boons began. Leadership has made it very clear that this is the system they're going with, and they've enumerated why over the years (which you can search for in this Forum).
But if you look back, PFS1 and SFS both began with a very limited selection of races and opened up more over time. I'm sure the same will happen with PFS2.
For some background:
PFS1 began as Core Only
By Season 4 you could also play Aasimar, Tiefling and Tengu
By Season... I can't remember... You could also play Undine, Oread, Ifrit and Sylph.
And at some point Nagaji, Kitsune and Wayang were added.
SFS began as Core Only
By Season 1.1 you could also play Legacy races.
By Season 2 you could also play an Izalguun.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's far older than those last two threads. It basically comes down to a clash between:
* "I paid for the book so I want to use the things in it"
* "We need something that not everyone gets to reward people who do something extra"
Also let's look at the numbers:
Points earned:
Play one scenario, standard: 4 ACP.
GM one scenario, standard: 8 AcP.
Point costs
Iruxi, Leshy: 80 AcP.
80/4=20, so you need to play 20 scenarios to earn an Iruxi. That's only half a year if you play once a week. And only 10 games if you GM. Faster if any of that is at conventions.
Venture-Captain, Online—VTT
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Assuming you get through a full scenario in one sitting.
The vast majority of PFS scenarios are indeed playing in a single sitting of 3-5 hours, usually somewhere around the lower end of that for most.
If finding enough time or opportunity to get that much gaming in at once is an issue then you might want to give the lovely Play by Post forums a look! Games there take place at a slower rate of a post or two a day usually and allow you to take part in spare moments when you can fit it in rather than requiring you set aside a large amount of time.
You can find the PF2 PbP lodge here!
|
|
We can't assume all non-core ancestries are going to be behind a boon. Only that Uncommon and Rare ancestries will be behind a boon. There may be a ancestry in the upcoming APG that the design team would consider a common race. Or maybe that Tengu is uncommon, but is common to Tien, and being from Tien get access. There may be an ancestry that becomes common in the ranks of the Pathfinder Society the way that Izalguuns have become always available in Starfinder. We are still early in the system and only 3 non-core ancestries have been released; we don't know what the path ahead holds.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The vast majority of PFS scenarios are indeed playing in a single sitting of 3-5 hours, usually somewhere around the lower end of that for most.
Fair enough. I was confusing scenarios with whole Adventure Paths. But if you've never spent an hour and a half trying to get your party across a fallen tree over a river, I both admire and pity you.
But it's still six month for one character IF you play once a week. In my experience one a week is the statistical outlier. YMMV.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can attest they are an incentive.
I want to play a Lizardfolk, therefore I GM at Events to expedite that.
Previously I had GMed at Conventions because they offered Boons.
It furthermore becomes less of an incentive when I have a plethora of Boons accumulated and unused.
|
|
We can't assume all non-core ancestries are going to be behind a boon.
No, but all four current ones are (including the rare pug person).
If boon races are an incentive to play, then making more would be to Paizo's benefit. I can't imagine them making all the APG races & ancestries locked, but I could see more locked than not.
At which point they should advertise them as NPC races and for GM use only.
|
|
My huge incentive when I began was the gaming store I started at offered GMs $5 in store credit for every table GMed. We had upwards of 30 people attend each game day, and at our peak we had two slots, with multiple tables per slot, on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays.
I bought most of my first set of books with that store credit.
Boons/AcP are obviously less of an incentive, but the same idea applies.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can attest they are an incentive.
<snip>
It furthermore becomes less of an incentive when I have a plethora of Boons accumulated and unused.
If you don't or can't GM it becomes a barrier.
Once you have a pile of AcP saved will you become less eager? If so, is the solution more boon races/ancestries?
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
|
I can attest they are an incentive.
<snip>
It furthermore becomes less of an incentive when I have a plethora of Boons accumulated and unused.
If you don't or can't GM it becomes a barrier.
Once you have a pile of AcP saved will you become less eager? If so, is the solution more boon races/ancestries?
With 600 AcP accumulated, I would say that there is some question as to just what they can be spent on. But then again, I am wondering what will be purchasable once the APG comes out. Hopefully I have enough to buy what I want. Since I am playing a Wizard, I will be using some of the AcP to buy restricted access spells for certain. That's going to burn up some of the AcP for sure.
More important to me is the future potential of scenarios being released that only 4 and 5 Glyph GMs can run. That to me is a huge incentive for earning Glyphs. Same goes for replay opportunities.
While Glyphs are not the same as AcP, running sessions definitely ups the number of AcP one can earn.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Assuming you get through a full scenario in one sitting.The vast majority of PFS scenarios are indeed playing in a single sitting of 3-5 hours, usually somewhere around the lower end of that for most.
If finding enough time or opportunity to get that much gaming in at once is an issue then you might want to give the lovely Play by Post forums a look! Games there take place at a slower rate of a post or two a day usually and allow you to take part in spare moments when you can fit it in rather than requiring you set aside a large amount of time.
You can find the PF2 PbP lodge here!
Thank you for plugging our beautiful Cottonseed Lodge, Richard! As someone who has been manning my location's Starfinder table throughout this epidemic, I'm grateful to PBP for giving me a chance to play and GM in PF2. Almost all my PF2 gaming opportunities from both sides of the screen have come from Play-by-Post!
Hmm
|
Venture-Agent, Minnesota
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you don't or can't GM it becomes a barrier.
I don't GM as much in PF2 as I do in Starfinder, so my progress is less. But I am still making progress, even when I play. I really like that about the PF2 system.
Still, I am firmly of the belief that 90% of the players that I have met can GM. At my location of Dreamers, 90% of our players do GM, because we mentor first time GMs and put experienced players on their tables to help them out. GMing may not be your first inclination, but it's a skill that you can learn, and it has its own rewards. I love getting to be a GM, because that means I can roleplay all the kooky NPCs!
Is there something that we can do to help you gain confidence as a GM, Donald?
Once you have a pile of AcP saved will you become less eager? If so, is the solution more boon races/ancestries?
Sometimes the solution is more boon races / ancestries. Sometimes it's purchasing other boons.
My Dream for AcP
What I am really hoping for is that they will add a function where we can 'gift' another player with a boon. With the old convention boons, I gave away the majority of my boons to players in my area, or to people who helped me craft GM tools and props. I like being able to give away boons.
I won't find the system complete until there is a way to gift boons / AcP to other players.
Hmm
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
I can attest they are an incentive.
I want to play a Lizardfolk, therefore I GM at Events to expedite that.
Previously I had GMed at Conventions because they offered Boons.
It furthermore becomes less of an incentive when I have a plethora of Boons accumulated and unused.
This. I really want to play one of the new races, so I GM (and I should have enough points in a couple of games). I used to go out of my way to GM at conventions to earn those convention boons, and I still would, if 2e offered convention boons. I have two characters that are both level 4 now, one is one game away from level 5. I'm going to need a new character soon as I outlevel the 1-4 scenarios - and it's nice being able to roll something a bit more special for it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not just our word, it's a common occurrence.
Some highlights from Michael Brock, our 3rd Campaign Coordinator, during the first GenCon that Race Boons were offered (quoted from the link above):
And from Mark Moreland, our 2nd Campaign Coordinator:
After having played through most of PFS1, I realize now that alternative races aren't (generally) permanently restricted. They're just rewards for dedicated members of the community, like going to see a preview of a movie before its public release.
And HERE is another link I often share on the similar topic of "Why is there an Additional Resources list?" A LOT of decision making goes into every player option, whether it's open to all, restricted, or banned.
|
|
Logue's tenure was rather short...
The campaign launched at GenCon, Aug 14 2008.
Logue left Paizo in September 2008
The OP guide page on the Pathfinder Wiki is a pretty good source for some of that early history.
|
Weren't Logue and Frost co-leads?
Edit: Nop..
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hy4f?Welcome-to-the-Pathfinder-Society
|
|
I agree with Campaign Leadership's decision to keep non-core races behind a boon. I see it as an incentive to play.I can't see this. The boons only matter if you're playing PFS. If you're playing PFS, you're probably playing as much as you're able to.
The only place that race restrictions come into play is WITH PFS. I don't understand what you are asking for. I thought you were asking for races to be open in PFS.
If you want races open in a home game, that is the GMs call.
Which, by the way, is what our PFS GM (ie Campaign Leadership) has done in restricting races.
I have said this before in other places. We all play in the PFS world. None of us are the GM. The Campaign Leadership is the GM and we just play in their world. If you don't like their world, you don't have to play in it.
|
|
This. I really want to play one of the new races, so I GM (and I should have enough points in a couple of games). I used to go out of my way to GM at conventions to earn those convention boons, and I still would, if 2e offered convention boons. I have two characters that are both level 4 now, one is one game away from level 5. I'm going to need a new character soon as I outlevel the 1-4 scenarios - and it's nice being able to roll something a bit more special for it.
Don't stop volunteering. GMs at cons will earn AcP at a higher rate than normal sessions. Doing the math, GMing at a even a local con will lead to getting the GM boon you speak of at about the same rate as in 1e.
Which was broken in 1e because small cons would give the GM boon even if someone GMed only 1 table.
I agree, the AcP needs to get up. I know we are in a bad time, but programmers can work from home. There is really no reason why the AcP system should not be out by now.
|
|
Don't stop volunteering. GMs at cons will earn AcP at a higher rate than normal sessions. Doing the math, GMing at a even a local con will lead to getting the GM boon you speak of at about the same rate as in 1e.Which was broken in 1e because small cons would give the GM boon even if someone GMed only 1 table.
I agree, the AcP needs to get up. I know we are in a bad time, but programmers can work from home. There is really no reason why the AcP system should not be out by now.
That is unless:
A. One isn't constantly told by coordinators that the non-firing of a table makes the GM-time preptime invalid for qualification.
B. One is always given tables that don't fire. Or conversely, were given three tables to run and only one fired, and as a result were told that because the full commitment wasn't met, they don't get a Boon.
That describes the first year or so of my trying to GM for PFS before things changed locally. I can imagine others have similar memories.
ACP don't help jack squat if the table doesn't fire, whereas in the past a GM could in good faith prep for a table, maybe even take extra effort to ensure that the play experience as a solid good one... and not have anyone sign up for the event.
Most event coordinators now recognize that effort in 1e.
In 2e, there's no provision for such as it currently stands.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't stop volunteering. GMs at cons will earn AcP at a higher rate than normal sessions. Doing the math, GMing at a even a local con will lead to getting the GM boon you speak of at about the same rate as in 1e.This. I really want to play one of the new races, so I GM (and I should have enough points in a couple of games). I used to go out of my way to GM at conventions to earn those convention boons, and I still would, if 2e offered convention boons. I have two characters that are both level 4 now, one is one game away from level 5. I'm going to need a new character soon as I outlevel the 1-4 scenarios - and it's nice being able to roll something a bit more special for it.
Doing the math, I could be handed a scenario, spend time prepping it for a con, drag all my GM stuff there, run it in a strict 4 hour slot that may or may not conflict with whatever other stuff I may want to do in the con - for 12 ACP (IF the con is a premium con)
Or, prep a game of my own choosing at my own leisure and run it outside of the con (for 8 acp), then go to the con, and enjoy whatever programs or games I want without the mandatory game dictating where I have to be and at what time - and instead play a game with my char with new people (for 6 acp)(For a total of 14 acp)
I think the amount of work is roughly the same, but the rewards don't match. and the opportunity cost for GMing in a con is higher.
Granted, I'll still continue to GM in cons when needed to pull together the required tables... But the temptation to go just "nah, this year I'll enjoy the con as a customer, not as a volunteer." is strong. And the reward for GMing in a con is 4 acp (on top of the regular reward for GMing which is 8acp). You need 80 acp. GMing in a con is worth 1/20th part of a race boon.
I like the ACP system, but I just don't think the rewards for Cons are adequate in it, and I hope convention boons are brought back. We've traditionally held a small con once a year at spring. This year we're struggling with the covid, obviously, but even if we were not, I feel like as an organizer, I lack tools to get people interested in GMing, and I don't know if we could pull together enough GM's to hit 15 tables.
|
|
Don't stop volunteering. GMs at cons will earn AcP at a higher rate than normal sessions. Doing the math, GMing at a even a local con will lead to getting the GM boon you speak of at about the same rate as in 1e.Which was broken in 1e because small cons would give the GM boon even if someone GMed only 1 table.
I agree, the AcP needs to get up. I know we are in a bad time, but programmers can work from home. There is really no reason why the AcP system should not be out by now.
That is unless:
A. One isn't constantly told by coordinators that the non-firing of a table makes the GM-time preptime invalid for qualification.
B. One is always given tables that don't fire. Or conversely, were given three tables to run and only one fired, and as a result were told that because the full commitment wasn't met, they don't get a Boon.
That describes the first year or so of my trying to GM for PFS before things changed locally. I can imagine others have similar memories.
ACP don't help jack squat if the table doesn't fire, whereas in the past a GM could in good faith prep for a table, maybe even take extra effort to ensure that the play experience as a solid good one... and not have anyone sign up for the event.
Most event coordinators now recognize that effort in 1e.
In 2e, there's no provision for such as it currently stands.
That is true. If a table does not fire, there would be no AcP points earned. Not sure how to handle that.
As to the other problem you described, it sounds like a failing in the coordinator than a failing of Paizo.
The failing of a table to fire exists with normal tables as well. Should those GMs also get some kind of AcP award for the non-firing table? I think this topic is worthy of it's own thread.
|
|
The only place that race restrictions come into play is WITH PFS. I don't understand what you are asking for. I thought you were asking for races to be open in PFS.
That is what I'm asking for. You said the race boons are an incentive to play, I responded if you care about the boons you are already playing PFS.
If you don't like their world, you don't have to play in it.
That's a crappy attitude. I'd rather start a discussion to see if it can be changed to give player more options. If you don't like that GMs don't get AcP for non-firing tables, don't play.
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think 10 games GM'd or 20 games played is pretty reasonable goal to set for a GM/Player to get a race boon. In PFS1, the Regional Support System gives you a race boon after GMing 12 games, and after a total of 24 games, you can gift a race boon to another player. (Race(s) in question depend on the boon which changes yearly). The RSP is/was a good incentive for recruiting new GM's - "Run some games, and eventually you'll get to make an aasimar or tiefling. Or a skinwalker. Or a changeling."
Now you can get the race boon even without GMing, if you just play actively.
There are currently 13 scenarios for level 1-4 characters. After playing 12 of those, your character is level 5 and can no longer play in that last (or, the upcoming new) level 1-4 scenarios.
In addition to those level 1-4 adventures, we also have four level 3-6 scenarios. You could play those too, and you'd be level 6 and have 4 xp - and 16 games played.
Add in the 8 quests and the one level 5 iconic characters scenario we didn't yet count, and you have more content than one character can play (because they'll outlevel some of the content) - and enough to get you a race boon without replaying or GMing anything. And we get two new scenarios and a new quest every month. "Play a bit, try leveling a character first for a few levels" doesn't seem like too much to ask.
Besides, the race boons that are locked behind the ACP are Uncommon races. They aren't immediately available to everyone, because they aren't common in the ingame world either. I like that most of the pathfinder teams are usually made up of mostly the common (usual fantasy) races - dwarves, elves, humans and halflings and so on*. It would be a bit weird if pathfinders only emplyed teams made up of leshies and iruxis and hobgoblins, because those races are unusual sights in the ingame world too.
But let's approach this from another angle:
in the OP, you reasoned that having to play once per week for a year or once per week for two years is too much - Those numbers aren't simply true, given that you need just 20 or 30 games for leshy/iruxi and Hobgoblin respectively (and possibly less). You also had mixed up PFS scenarios with adventure paths and assumed the scenarios wouldn't run in 4 hours (they do - in fact, 2e scenarios seem to often take about 3,5 hours, at least locally). Now that you know the difference, do you feel the requirement of 20 games played or 10 games GM'd still sounds unreasonable?
Also, this system - the organized play - literally runs on volunteers who keep running games, and I think those who do more work to keep the society running and the scene alive - by GMing games weekly, semi-weekly, or once per month - deserve a reward for their hard work. At the same time, I'm all for all the incentives we can give to encourage new GM's to step up and try GMing. If you're interested in one of the race boons, could I recommend that you step up and GM for your fellow players? You'll help the society grow and thrive, and you'll earn the race you want faster.
(I recognize that getting into GMing is a bit more difficult at these social distancing times, but roll20 is a good/decent platform to run games on, and the online region is active practically around the clock, and probably more than happy to help you get started on your PFS GM career! ^_^)
*I dislike Paizo's decision to add goblin to the core races, but, eh, that's not really the topic here.
|
|
So what different argument are you proposing, compared to the numerous similar arguments before you?
None, the old arguments still hold water. All that's changed is there's a new edition and it's a fresh chance to do things differently to give players the freedom to play what they want from the start.
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think 10 games GM'd or 20 games played is pretty reasonable goal to set for a GM/Player to get a race boon. In PFS1, the Regional Support System gives you a race boon after GMing 12 games, and after a total of 24 games, you can gift a race boon to another player. (Race(s) in question depend on the boon which changes yearly). The RSP is/was a good incentive for recruiting new GM's - "Run some games, and eventually you'll get to make an assimar or tiefling. Or a skinwalker. Or a changeling."
Now you can get the race boon even without GMing, if you just play actively.
Besides, the race boons that are locked behind the ACP are Uncommon races. They aren't immediately available to everyone, because they aren't common in the in game world either. I like that most of the pathfinder teams are usually made up of mostly the common (usual fantasy) races - dwarves, elves, humans and halflings and so on*. It would be a bit weird if pathfinders only employed teams made up of leshies and iruxis and hobgoblins, because those races are unusual sights in the in game world too.
I edited some of that.
Org Play did address some of the issues about race boons with the AcP as Tommi noted here. They are no longer locked behind a boon earned through GMing or winning it in a contest. One can simply earn the privilege to play an uncommon ancestry via playing. That is a really big change and I like it.
Not only do players get to earn the AcP so as to unlock an ancestry, they also do not have to attend a single convention to do so. They can earn the AcP needed just by playing PFS2 sessions. That's another major improvement that Org Play has implemented.
Not all ancestries and heritages are meant to be as or more common than the Core ancestries. I asked about the restriction of one Hobgoblin and was given a solid answer. In Society play, we have to remember that it is all part of a universal campaign. Not everything is going to be legal in it (thankfully) and not everything is going to be common in it (even more thankfully). It's a campaign and we need to keep that in mind.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now you can get the race boon even without GMing, if you just play actively.
Which was one of my base arguments, life doesn't always allow for active play. Playing is part of the increasingly rare spare time people have and having to play your second choice of characters takes away some of the fun of that time.
Besides, the race boons that are locked behind the ACP are Uncommon races. They aren't immediately available to everyone, because they aren't common in the ingame world either. It would be a bit weird if pathfinders only emplyed teams made up of leshies and iruxis and hobgoblins, because those races are unusual sights in the ingame world too.
I'll copy-n-paste myself from the other thread: The "uncommoness" is artificial. If you have a party of six Iruxi, those six are the only know Iruxi in the Pathfinder Society plus any NPCs met along the way.
Each game takes place it's own 'pocket universe' where your party composition doesn't matter or effect other parties. Even at multi-table events at con, I don't see why the make-up of the party matters while achieving the group goals.
But let's approach this from another angle. <snip>
Now that you know the difference, do you feel the requirement of 20 games played or 10 games GM'd still sounds unreasonable?
Yes. As I mentioned getting everyone in the group together to play is an "uncommon" occurrence and having to grind out AcP to play your cool concept character is asking a lot.
I do not have the time or inclination to GM, so I'm stuck with the slow grind.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So what different argument are you proposing, compared to the numerous similar arguments before you?None, the old arguments still hold water. All that's changed is there's a new edition and it's a fresh chance to do things differently to give players the freedom to play what they want from the start.
And that will never be a thing, for weal or woe.
"Freedom to play whatever you want" is the purview of home games, not Organized Society play.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have a party of six Iruxi, those six are the only know Iruxi in the Pathfinder Society plus any NPCs met along the way.
Each game takes place it's own 'pocket universe' where your party composition doesn't matter or effect other parties. Even at multi-table events at con, I don't see why the make-up of the party matters while achieving the group goals.
I'm pretty sure this isn't actually true, as orgnaized play is concerned.
Especially with the Election of a PC as a leader we just had in SFS, and monitoring what choices players took in certain Scenarios. I fully espect to see more things like that in P2FS.
You're the only ones/unique/ the only heroes in the land is again the purview of home games and APs.
|
|
Yes. As I mentioned getting everyone in the group together to play is an "uncommon" occurrence and having to grind out AcP to play your cool concept character is asking a lot.
I don't fully understand why you and your uncommonly meeting group don't just play a home game where you can freely enact your vision. Rather than saying PFS should change to fit your vision. Or are you the outlier in your group, where everyone else wants to adhere to PFS rules?
What is the argument besides, "Because I want to?"
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can anyone remind me of how AcP is calculated for Adventure Paths? Is it now proportional in playing time to that earned in scenarios? I recall that when we first started, Plaguestone only earned a GM about 2 tables worth of credit for a scenario that was several weeks of work. Is this how all will be going forward? If Donald is only playing Adventure Paths that may be Donald's real problem here.