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Folks, it's 2020. Nobody knows what kender are. Dragonlance is out of print. It's a dead reference outside of people who are still playing D&D with the same group since 1978.
That game in 1988, when Joey played a kender and kept stealing underwear from your Paladin and made silly jokes and instead of being the heroic bulwark of Light and Goodness you spent most of the game having Joey make you look like an idiot? The problem was Joey, not kender.
I've been playing Dnd since 2010. Guess what, I still know what Kender are because the internet community around DnD has made it very clear what they are. Nobody knows what Kender are if nobody has seen the stories, checked out DnD memes, knows any older RPG players, or even just visited TvTropes.
Secondly, Kender were the problem in that they were a race designed to have a perfect in-character reason to steal the other parties gear, and have any action against them in response be treated as evil in-universe. For groups that focus heavily on roleplaying in accordance with the setting, I can see why that would be a major issue.
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What, may I ask, is a "comedy relief race"?
Is it like a 3-legged race, or a potato sack race, or what? Because I am certain that it's not thinking that the ancestry of a character is enough by which to determine whether or not the character is "a joke" or "nothing but comic relief."
Depends on portrayal, traits, combinations. I'm not saying there's never been a serious Goblin character in Pathfinder, but their depiction has been humorous a lot of times. Same thing for why you get the ever cheerful halfling or the cowardly kobold (Thank you 5e /s) which also tend to be the source of humor. Not that it's a bad thing necessarily but it depends on what parts are emphasized. Maybe it's misinterpreting their portrayal then and in the past but I feel like Paizo goblins tend to be used for comedy and their race entry points you in that direction. Not as badly as the 5e Kobold. And again, just my interpretation, I could be off in this.
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No, nobody has an idea of what kender are. I've literally asked 20 people I regularly game with and 1 person recalled something Dragonlance. Then again, we're not Americans and most of us are below 35, so there's that.
Chances of kender (and the perceived issue with kender) being recognised among a group of people that aren't hardcore D&D nerds that get all the jokes and memes are about as high as with Warduke, Illithiad or Pun-Pun.
And kender were not designed that way. The iconic kender was a likeable, Chaotic Good, selfless hero. The fact that you see them as purposefully introduced to blow up other people's fun kind of tells everything I need to know.
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No, nobody has an idea of what kender are. I've literally asked 20 people I regularly game with and 1 person recalled something Dragonlance. Then again, we're not Americans and most of us are below 35, so there's that.
Chances of kender (and the perceived issue with kender) being recognised among a group of people that aren't hardcore D&D nerds that get all the jokes and memes are about as high as with Warduke, Illithiad or Pun-Pun.
And kender were not designed that way. The iconic kender was a likeable, Chaotic Good, selfless hero. The fact that you see them as purposefully introduced to blow up other people's fun kind of tells everything I need to know.
My phrasing was off in that last post. Their original design was because Hickman and Weiss had hang-ups with thieving being treated as a morally good act and trying to square that with their dnd group needing a rogue. So they introduced Kender, and the character trait perfectly slots into being for the chaotic neutral character.
As for the recognition, most of my group recognizes them, and I've never heard of Warduke or Illithiad. Have heard of Pun-pun but can't remember if that Kobold is a 3.5 build or if it's that joke blow up the universe build from a GURPS supplement.
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When it comes to Kender, there's two different kinds: the version actually written into the Dragonlance books, and the version that are described all over the internet.
The difference is that while the former have no sense of ownership and would absolutely end up with other people's belongings, they'd willingly and readily give them back especially if they were needed - the latter is the result of bad players trying to say "the book says I can" in defense of their rampant and deliberate disruptive behavior, and people scape-goated Kender instead of laying the blame for disruptive behavior at the feet of the player choosing to interpret something as permission to be disruptive.
Kinda the same reason there are a lot of groups that say "No evil characters" or "No chaotic neutral" - not because those elements are actually inherently disruptive, but because disruptive players will argue their disruptive play is what those elements told them to do.
I'd argue the issue partially comes in how you fluff those elements up, although disruptive players are always disruptive. I think what made Kender stand out was the idea that no matter what they did they were purely good, that they were incapable of evil. At least with evil and chaotic neutral characters the paladin can smite them into the ground and not risk an alignment change. Anyway, I really just used the comparison for a joke. Goblins don't really sit where Kender are, and I'm okay with them being in the game, I just wish another race has been made Core instead.
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Also because it's much easier to say goblins/kender/drow/paladins/rogues are to blame where the real problem is Joey - but since Joey is your sister's stepfather and does really great TexMex ribs at BBQ and he's really funny when he gets drunk, will you take it to him? Nah, you'll hit the Internet and aim for the game.
Besides, the wild popularity of We Be Goblins is somewhat indicative as to how well the concept of a comedy race was received.
I personally really like Goblins and think they're good in core.
But I can agree that there are a lot of little overlaps between the Small races and maybe it would be better if at least one of them was more out there.
Sort of lowkey get the vibe that Halflings have a wisdom bonus in 2e specifically because someone realized partway through development that all three small races in 2e having Cha bonuses would look a little samey.
Though if it were me I'd boot one of the other two before Goblins.
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I mean, I'd pick Gnomes but apparently 4e got backlash for doing that. Even if it doesn't appear a core race is popular it probably will turn out to be so just because it's a core race and it will get the most exposure. I have a soft spot for Halflings but that's thanks to a lot of players who did some fun RPing in contradiction of the usual RP. Cold dead assassing halfling is terrifying :)
To answer the OP, because Kender /s
I've never been a fan of comedy relief races (I really hate 5e for that Cower ability because I do like Kobolds). I...just kind of don't see the point of the Goblin when the Gnome and Halfling are Core. There's races I'd like to have seen first that I think offer more things to the table like Strix, Hobgoblins, Bugbear, Kobold, Gnoll, Dhampir, Fetchling. I get why goblins (Company mascot at this point, etc.) I just don't find them very interesting. Also in some cases disturbingly kender-ish. At least in-universe that behavior is seen as a bad thing.
I hope Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Kobolds and etcetera are officially playable soon. I agree they would bring something to the table.
Of course, I'm really looking forward to the threads "Why are Hobgoblins a playable race now?" and "Why are Kobolds a playable race now?" for no other reason than a change of topic.
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Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
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Only feedback at my tables about shoony was 'Why only pugs?' and something about the short nose thing that's apparently bad for real dogs? I don't know. No pleasing anyone, as it turns out.Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
They have a Constitution Flaw for a reason :3
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Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
I am looking forward to the APG.
If I understand you correctly, I have to buy these 3 separate items to have all of the playable ancestries (in addition to the core books). How convenient.
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Or you can just use the Archives of Nethys.
I'm hoping for a "well but that requires Internet" followup.
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Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
My complaint was again I think those options would make a better choice for Core Races. I did read the Hobgoblins section from Lost Omens, it's pretty good. Personally dislike the art, but that's a mild issue.
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Sort of lowkey get the vibe that Halflings have a wisdom bonus in 2e specifically because someone realized partway through development that all three small races in 2e having Cha bonuses would look a little samey.Though if it were me I'd boot one of the other two before Goblins.
Ain't nothing low key about it, that's what happened. Well, that and pathfinder halflings have always been more salt of the earth types, and wisdom actually makes more sense than charisma.
My complaint was again I think those options would make a better choice for Core Races.
Aside from the case of "well I only own one book..." why does core matter?
No one cared in PF1 that their aasimar arcanist or their tiefling bloodrager or their caligni kineticist wasn't "core". You didn't see more (core) rogues, monks, dwarves, and gnomes because those things were "core".
It's [current year] and people don't really discover options from dead tree books- they find them on the internet, and the weird stuff is in the same section as the "core" stuff. AoN and PFSRD aren't hiding the Shoonies and the Iruxi.
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My complaint was again I think those options would make a better choice for Core Races.Aside from the case of "well I only own one book..." why does core matter?
No one cared in PF1 that their aasimar arcanist or their tiefling bloodrager or their caligni kineticist wasn't "core". You didn't see more (core) rogues, monks, dwarves, and gnomes because those things were "core".
It's [current year] and people don't really discover options from dead tree books- they find them on the internet, and the weird stuff is in the same section as the "core" stuff. AoN and PFSRD aren't hiding the Shoonies and the Iruxi.
I've seen it make an actual difference. I've had GMs require core-only races under the assumption that they are more balanced than the other races.
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Or you can just use the Archives of Nethys.I'm hoping for a "well but that requires Internet" followup.
Sometimes I like to read holding a book in my hands.
I don't expect others to understand.
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I mean, I get the dead tree books because I like reading them that way.
But if I want to look at "what feat should I take at 8th level?" I'm going to go to the internet where they're all in one place.
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Does anyone know offhand how many books you'd need for all the playable races in PF1? It's got to be at least 50.
Organized Play Developer
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Does anyone know offhand how many books you'd need for all the playable races in PF1? It's got to be at least 50.
It's not quite that high since a few of them got picked up from player companions and the like into hardcover resources like the Advanced Race Guide and Ultimate Wilderness, but it's definitely more than 10 books. CRB, ARG, UW, most Bestiaries have at least one race with PC stats that doesn't appear in any other book (so that's about 6 books), Inner Sea Bestiary (which comes from a different line than the other bestiaries), Blood of the Moon... So that breaks 10 without even trying very hard.
I really can't think of any successful RPG that puts all the PC races/ancestries/species that the game will ever have in the first book. It's not something you'd really do unless you wanted to set some really hard boundaries on what is true of the game world, or if you just weren't really sure that you'd ever get a second book published.
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"I need to have physical books,"
"I want to have a complete set of ancestries,"
And "I don't want to have to buy more books," are three reaaally hard things to reconcile.
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Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
I am looking forward to the APG.
If I understand you correctly, I have to buy these 3 separate items to have all of the playable ancestries (in addition to the core books). How convenient.
Don't worry, there's more stuff in them books then just new ancestries. They're all well worth the extra money spent.
Don't worry, there's more stuff in them books then just new ancestries. They're all well worth the extra money spent.Hobgoblins, lizardfolk and leshy are already playable for a couple of months already, they were published in the Lost Omens Character Guide. But, of course, nobody noticed because people who come down here to kvetch pretty much never read the stuff they complain about :)
To make your life easier, aasimars, catfolk, changelings, dhampirs, duskwalkers, kobolds, orcs, tieflings, ratfolk and tengu will be out in 3 months with Advanced Player' Guide.
Also, the indomitable Shoony, the pug-people, were published in a recent AP instalment. I think some here might flip out at the notion of pugfolk in their xxxxtreme dark and edgy fantasy grimdark :D
I am looking forward to the APG.
If I understand you correctly, I have to buy these 3 separate items to have all of the playable ancestries (in addition to the core books). How convenient.
Absolutely. If you're a player, you probably should get the CRB and the APG, for sure. LOCG is a really nice addition, and certainly the next most player-facing book they've put out or planned yet.
I love these books and they're beautiful. I understand prioritizing which books are absolutely vital and which are just nice, though.
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"I need to have physical books,"
"I want to have a complete set of ancestries,"
And "I don't want to have to buy more books," are three reaaally hard things to reconcile.
Don't forget this one:
"I cannot afford to buy all these damn books"
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In Pathfinder 1st edition, to play all of the classes you would need:
The Core Rulebook
The Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
The Advanced Class Guide
Pathfinder Unchained
Occult Adventures
Ultimate Intrigue
Ultimate Wilderness
And a character is generally more defined by their class than their ancestry/race- You could take a given gnome sorcerer and make them a halfling instead they'd do a lot of the same things, but if you took that sorcerer and made them a monk they would be extremely different in how they play.
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uh, I know Kender and I started playing with fourth edition in 2010, the annotated dragonlance books were being sold crisp and new in my local barnes and nobles.
At least in North america the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends series at least are still in print. At least at the bookstores in my area. With not all gamers knowing of Kender (mostly because gamers cannot imo play them) as well as other setting elements like Solemanic knights. I think some on the hobby forget that their was three popular videogames base on the IP. Dragonlance is certainly not a household name. Neither is it unknown in the hobby imo.