Full class level as damage on top for Small Arms for Biohacker?


Rules Questions


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So we are talking about Small Arms and it seems Starfinder is designed to only have a good damage output for pistols for Operatives.

Then we found this!
Level 8 Theorem for Biohacker
To lazy to fire up my tablet for my own PDF from Character Operations Manual.

Copy and paste from Archives of Nethys wrote:

Arms Expert (Ex)and it is legal for Society on top!

If you have the weapon specialization class feature, add your full class level to damage (rather than half your class level) with small arms and weapons with which you have gained proficiency through the injection expert class feature.

Starting at level 1 a Biohacker has profiency with all Small Arms and some do have the injection property!

So is it really intended to give full damage for pistols for a class with such an amout of buff and debuff?


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I mean, I'm going to presume it does exactly what it says it does. Add full class level to damage to small arms.

Soldiers have a similar thing for using Operative weapons now, with the Finesse Striker gear boost.


I agree with Pantshandshake - giving full Weapon Specialization damage to all small arms isn't a typo.

The rationale being that Biohacker isn't much of a damage dealing class. Buffing, Debuffing, and Debilitating yes. But not direct damage. So if you are wanting to deal damage as part of your character build, you have to find some way of doing that.

In order to get better damage output, you would need to spend general feats on better weapon categories. Arms Expert lets you instead spend a Theorem slot to get a minor improvement in damage to the weapons you are already using.


Soldiers have that option for melee operative weapons.

I will take that theorom when it's time for another level 1 character and my first Biohacker.

It just sounds too good to be true.


Tigerkralle wrote:

Soldiers have that option for melee operative weapons.

I will take that theorom when it's time for another level 1 character and my first Biohacker.

It just sounds too good to be true.

Well, it is a level 8 theorem. So you will have to wait until then.


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Tigerkralle wrote:

Soldiers have that option for melee operative weapons.

I will take that theorom when it's time for another level 1 character and my first Biohacker.

It just sounds too good to be true.

A small arm with full weapon spec is still doing less damage than a long arm with full weapon spec. It's good, but it's not super amazing must have when long arm injection weapons exist.

Second Seekers (Jadnura)

The only real advantage to just using a smallarm is the ability to pick up two weapon fighting. Another +1 to hit for a feat doesn't sound like much, but its rare enough in starfinder to be a thing.


Mom Norveg wrote:
The only real advantage to just using a smallarm is the ability to pick up two weapon fighting. Another +1 to hit for a feat doesn't sound like much, but its rare enough in starfinder to be a thing.

It also lets you have a hand free to use a shield or a melee weapon.

Second Seekers (Jadnura)

Ventnor wrote:
Mom Norveg wrote:
The only real advantage to just using a smallarm is the ability to pick up two weapon fighting. Another +1 to hit for a feat doesn't sound like much, but its rare enough in starfinder to be a thing.
It also lets you have a hand free to use a shield or a melee weapon.

"If you don't plan on standing toe to toe with things that like to eat you, the best defense is running away and hiding behind something. Being able to climb, fly, burrow, or just skeedadle faster than the rest of your part..erm. The thing trying to eat you is a plus. When all else fails, bayonettes and injection gloves don't take up a whole hand. Another advantage to the rifle is you can put a bipod under it, set up shop and full attack a bit easier. The sheer number of times I've seen shields in monster poop makes me wonder why people keep carrying the darn things..."


What gets me is the Pistol Dancer Soldier fighting style doesn't even get full level specialization to small arms and the biohacker does. SMH


Starfinder Casper wrote:
What gets me is the Pistol Dancer Soldier fighting style doesn't even get full level specialization to small arms and the biohacker does. SMH

Not natively, no, you just take the Finesse Striker gear boost to get full level spec damage.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Finesse Striker doesn't do anything for small arms.


Ah, you're correct, I thought small arms also had the operative tag!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm afraid that wouldn't make any sense, as the operative tag only benefits melee attacks by allowing the use of DEX to hit (which is an important distinction if you put a Throwing fusion on an operative weapon).


Starfinder Casper wrote:
What gets me is the Pistol Dancer Soldier fighting style doesn't even get full level specialization to small arms and the biohacker does. SMH

Exactly why is a Soldier, the class meant to be a damage dealer of all classes, doing less damage with Pistols then a class meant for support?


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Tigerkralle wrote:
Starfinder Casper wrote:
What gets me is the Pistol Dancer Soldier fighting style doesn't even get full level specialization to small arms and the biohacker does. SMH
Exactly why is a Soldier, the class meant to be a damage dealer of all classes, doing less damage with Pistols then a class meant for support?

I'm pretty sure a decent Solarian is going to out-damage most soldiers.

And, pistols are the lowest base damage of all the ranged options, so a soldier can just, you know, use any other kind of gun and do more damage than anyone using a pistol (without trick attack or other class powers.)


HammerJack wrote:
I'm afraid that wouldn't make any sense, as the operative tag only benefits melee attacks by allowing the use of DEX to hit (which is an important distinction if you put a Throwing fusion on an operative weapon).

The operative tag on a melee weapon is what allows use of said weapon in a trick attack, I believe I was mixing that with small arms to arrive at "Operatives trick attack with weapons with the operative tag, so small arms have the operative tag."


Tigerkralle wrote:
Starfinder Casper wrote:
What gets me is the Pistol Dancer Soldier fighting style doesn't even get full level specialization to small arms and the biohacker does. SMH
Exactly why is a Soldier, the class meant to be a damage dealer of all classes, doing less damage with Pistols then a class meant for support?

Biohacker is more buff/debuff damage hybrid than support (and if anything, is bigger on debuff than anything else)

The class does more damage with pistols because its a very self contained class: you need to get to level 8 to use that ability, which makes it hard to dip and multiclass to say, unlock full damage with pistols to operatives.

There's also the general problem with ranged combat in that it doesn't have much OOF... melee damage is where all the real damage is and its where all the options are. A soldiers big draw is more options .. but thats like adding more fuel to a fire when you're already maxed on oxygen use.


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Paizo kind of wrote themselves into a corner with small arms. They do bad damage but Operatives get really big damage boosts in class when wielding them to make up for it, but that's only really necessary because they're so much worse to begin with.
So the end result is just an entire category of weapon that, up until very recently, only existed for one class and needs special class features to make relevant for anyone else.

It ends up being a pretty pointless set of rules as a result.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
A soldiers big draw is more options .. but thats like adding more fuel to a fire when you're already maxed on oxygen use.

This doesn't really follow at all. I get that you don't like ranged weapons, but I'm not sure how that's really a compelling argument for not offering more support to an undersupported category of equipment.


Full spec is no where near as deadly for Operatives as many belivve it to be. The classes that outdamage the operative (without full spec) still do even with full spec. IT would be much better to just errata that smalls arms gain full spec and be done with it.


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Squiggit wrote:


This doesn't really follow at all. I get that you don't like ranged weapons, but I'm not sure how that's really a compelling argument for not offering more support to an undersupported category of equipment.

...because it's not an argument for offering more support to an undersupported catagory of equipment it's just a statement of how the game looks to me now?


The multiclass problem could have been easily solved with pistol dancer fighting style with a wording of “you get your soldier level as specialization with small arms, half level for any other levels that are not soldier.” Somewhere in that fighting style. Instead they gave the soldier the ability to keep shooting stuff to work your way up to an additional half your soldier level in additional damage At level 17. And to say soldier should just get another weapon is not the point of a Pistol Fighting Style. While yes the random damage die are less than other ranged weapons, the specialization gives you consistent damage and should not be half level for a soldier trained to fight using them especially when a biohacker can get it. The pistol dancer was just poorly thought out.


Look at it from the biohackers point of view.

Without this, why wouldn't EVERY biohacker be using an injection rifle?

Even with this, full attacking with two pistols only helps you a little bit in the ammo conservation department , and nets an additional +1 to hit for a feat at the cost of range.

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