Looking at level 5 control spell options I see some solid AoE spells on the Occult list. Could I get some advice on which spell would be considered the best to worst of the following 3 and the pros and cons of each. The 3 spells are Black Tentacles, Crushing Despair, and Synaptic Pulse.
1. Black Tentacles. It deals damage as well as controlling, it lasts for 10 rounds, it keeps you far away, you get to keep rolling every turn as long as your allies properly box in the baddies. One of my favorite spells of all time.
2. Crushing Despair. You have to get too close. Cones hit allies. No damage. But Slowed 1 for 1 minute is better than stunned for 1 round.
3. Synaptic Pulse. Short range, will hit allies, meh effect, incapacitation trait. I would never take this.
1. Black Tentacles. It deals damage as well as controlling, it lasts for 10 rounds, it keeps you far away, you get to keep rolling every turn as long as your allies properly box in the baddies. One of my favorite spells of all time.
2. Crushing Despair. You have to get too close. Cones hit allies. No damage. But Slowed 1 for 1 minute is better than stunned for 1 round.
3. Synaptic Pulse. Short range, will hit allies, meh effect, incapacitation trait. I would never take this.
1. Black tentacles deals lowish damage, unfortunately doesn't create difficult terrain and has to go up against a fort save other than that looks good.
2. Crushing Despair this is actually pretty nice on a failure since it targets multiple people like Slow but instead of targeting Fort you target Will, that's pretty nice. It's failure effect is better than Slow also and takes up a lower spell slot also (Heightened Slow level 6)
3. Synaptic Pulse hits enemies only, incapacitation trait is the only real downside I'm seeing here
1. Black Tentacles. It deals damage as well as controlling, it lasts for 10 rounds, it keeps you far away, you get to keep rolling every turn as long as your allies properly box in the baddies. One of my favorite spells of all time.
2. Crushing Despair. You have to get too close. Cones hit allies. No damage. But Slowed 1 for 1 minute is better than stunned for 1 round.
3. Synaptic Pulse. Short range, will hit allies, meh effect, incapacitation trait. I would never take this.
1. Black tentacles deals lowish damage, unfortunately doesn't create difficult terrain and has to go up against a fort save other than that looks good.
2. Crushing Despair this is actually pretty nice on a failure since it targets multiple people like Slow but instead of targeting Fort you target Will, that's pretty nice. It's failure effect is better than Slow also and takes up a lower spell slot also (Heightened Slow level 6)
3. Synaptic Pulse hits enemies only, incapacitation trait is the only real downside I'm seeing here
They don't get a Fort Save against Black Tentacles. You make an attack roll vs their Fort DC, which is usually similar to their AC, and often lower. 4D6 damage for 10 rounds without you doing anything is pretty good. 40D6 damage is nothing to sneeze at.
On top of that the enemy is spending at least 1 action per round to Escape.
Synaptic Pulse affects all creatures in the area. It will hit your allies. The word enemies is only used in fluff.
You emit a pulsating mental blast that penetrates the minds of all enemies in the area. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature is stunned 1.
Failure The creature is stunned 2.
Critical Failure The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Actually, now that I think about it, you are within the area of effect for Synaptic Pulse yourself, meaning it will hit you too. :(
Though, that part probably isn't intended.
I did not know that about Synaptic Pulse, if that's the case you are correct then, that spell is awful.
I like your idea of using Black Tentacles keeping the enemy within the area, we have an arcane caster on the team would it be useful to have him cast Wall of Stone around the black tentacles to box in our enemies?
I did not know that about Synaptic Pulse, if that's the case you are correct then, that spell is awful.
I like your idea of using Black Tentacles keeping the enemy within the area, we have an arcane caster on the team would it be useful to have him cast Wall of Stone around the black tentacles to box in our enemies?
Immensely. While there are always ways for stronger enemies to get around such walls, anything to keep them trapped and taking that extra damage longer would be of great use.
I agree that Black Tentacles is one of the best spells out there for its level and throwing on barriers to stop enemies from escaping makes it even better.
Actually, now that I think about it, you are within the area of effect for Synaptic Pulse yourself, meaning it will hit you too. :(
Synaptic Pulse is an Emanation, so you can choose not to be affected.
Synaptic Pulse is an Emanation, so you can choose not to be affected.
Actually, now that I think about it, you are within the area of effect for Synaptic Pulse yourself, meaning it will hit you too. :(
Please provide a source for this. I searched for such a rule before posting but could not find it. The AOE templates for emanations clearly include the caster.
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Please provide a source for this. I searched for such a rule before posting but could not find it. The AOE templates for emanations clearly include the caster.Synaptic Pulse is an Emanation, so you can choose not to be affected.
Actually, now that I think about it, you are within the area of effect for Synaptic Pulse yourself, meaning it will hit you too. :(
It's in the Errata:
Page 457: In the Emanation section, add the following
sentence to the end. “An emanation effect includes the
target of the emanation, but the creature creating the
effect can exclude the target if desired.”
It turned out there were too many different emanation spells where you would want or not want to include the caster.
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- While Black tentacles is nice, it's a spell that I would use in an Occult Sorceret but not a bard to be honest because it's 3 actions (meaning no composition if you are not lingering it) and Fortitude DC have an horrible habit of sometimes being higher than AC (like with all the Dragons per example).
- I personally like Crushing Despair, targets will instead of fortitude like the slow spell and takes out reactions, making it basically an cone hideous laughter that you don't need to sustain.
- Synaptic Pulse is really strong but hard to use because it target party members as well, so unless your party have a strategy around that I would not bother with it.
Please provide a source for this. I searched for such a rule before posting but could not find it. The AOE templates for emanations clearly include the caster.Synaptic Pulse is an Emanation, so you can choose not to be affected.
Actually, now that I think about it, you are within the area of effect for Synaptic Pulse yourself, meaning it will hit you too. :(
In the errata:
Page 457: In the Emanation section, add the following sentence to the end. “An emanation effect includes the target of the emanation, but the creature creating the effect can exclude the target if desired.”
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Synaptic Pulse affects all creatures in the area. It will hit your allies. The word enemies is only used in fluff.
You emit a pulsating mental blast that penetrates the minds of all enemies in the area. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save.
I can see how, on a natural reading, the second sentence conflicts with the first. And this is a natural RAW reading. But I would take the first sentence to suggest that, RAI, the spell is only supposed to effect enemies.
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...though I guess one could quibble about whether the "each" in the second sentence is supposed to be an unrestricted quantifier, or whether it's supposed to be a restricted quantifier whose restriction is determined by the previous sentence. Compare to a hypothetical spell that read:
"You release a burst of holy light, making any evil creature within 60 feet dazzled for 1 minute. Moreover, choose up to three creatures who have harmed you or your allies. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save."
In this case, the "each creature" in the last sentence is clearly a restricted quantifier, whose restriction is determined by the previous sentence. I.e., it's not every creature in the area who makes a Will save, just the creatures you chose who have harmed you or your allies.
But I grant that in the case of the Synaptic Pulse spell this "restricted quantifier" reading is less natural. And if this "restricted quantifier" reading was intended, an errata clarifying the wording would be ideal.
Synaptic Pulse comes from PF1 and Starfinder and are both affecting all creatures in the area (including the caster, which is the only difference in PF2).
So, I think RAW is also RAI.
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Synaptic Pulse comes from PF1 and Starfinder and are both affecting all creatures in the area (including the caster, which is the only difference in PF2).
So, I think RAW is also RAI.
Use the PF1 and SF is not good reference to know how the spell work once that many spells was changed in 2e.
Also, the text for such magics in older books call explicitly "all creatures", just 2e calls enemies. There's other area effect magics 2e that explicitly says creatures instead of enemies when they want to effect all. But the "Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save" is a common sentence used also in other spells just to say what save to use and not what creatures are effected, just like the Porridge example.
You stun all creatures in range for 1 round.
You emit a pulsating mental blast that stuns all creatures in range of your psychic shriek for 1d4 rounds. On a successful save, a creature is instead sickened for 1 round.
You emit a pulsating mental blast that penetrates the minds of all enemies in the area. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save.
I don't think this is a fluffy.
Synaptic Pulse comes from PF1 and Starfinder and are both affecting all creatures in the area (including the caster, which is the only difference in PF2).
So, I think RAW is also RAI.Use the PF1 and SF is not good reference to know how the spell work once that many spells was changed in 2e.
Also, the text for such magics in older books call explicitly "all creatures", just 2e calls enemies. There's other area effect magics 2e that explicitly says creatures instead of enemies when they want to effect all. But the "Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save" is a common sentence used also in other spells just to say what save to use and not what creatures are effected, just like the Porridge example.
You stun all creatures in range for 1 round.You emit a pulsating mental blast that stuns all creatures in range of your psychic shriek for 1d4 rounds. On a successful save, a creature is instead sickened for 1 round.You emit a pulsating mental blast that penetrates the minds of all enemies in the area. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save.I don't think this is a fluffy.
Provide an example please. The first sentence is clearly fluff. There is no rules text in it at all.
Emanations that only hit specific targets call that out in the Targets section, and/or reference that in their descriptions, like Bane, Bless, Wail of the Banshee, and Horrific Visage do.
All Creatures in the area means all Creatures in the area.
Does anyone else run into the problem of Fort quite often being higher than the enemys AC? Making these Tentacles difficult to land against anything resembling a large or bigger creature. I could see it being good vs non bosses though.
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Martial inclined creatures usually have higher Fortitude (except speedsters that have higher reflex), and you usually see a lot of it.
Does anyone else run into the problem of Fort quite often being higher than the enemys AC? Making these Tentacles difficult to land against anything resembling a large or bigger creature. I could see it being good vs non bosses though.
I currently master a campaign with lots of undead and frankly they are A LOT more sensitive to fort spell than before...
Not only are they not immune to Fort save anymore but most of their Fort save are way less than their AC...That's a total game changer that I have not seen that coming... So now I'm sticking with playable race ennemies for the time being... There's a lot of monsters to read again and a lot of habit to lose... :p
I think this kind of things are why most GM stay safe in playing playable races ennemies for now with easy classes to play, a lot of things have changed with monsters we have to regains our marks with fights... ;)
If it's affecting all creatures then it's definitely affecting all enemies, so there's no contradiction. It doesn't say "only" enemies.
For the way I'm playing bard, I like Crushing Despair more.
In tough fights, I'm alternating between Inspire Courage with Inspire Heroics and Dirge of Doom from turn to turn because Dirge essentially frightens for 2 turns if enemies don't run away and you can manage the positioning and timing(just after the enemy initiative). I cast Haste on myself in order to be able to manage ranges with all of my effects with the free move. This style makes lines (Grim Tendrils) and cones exceptionally useful spells because I can manage the movement so well.
In easier fights, I put up inspire courage with lingering composition. That would free up my 3rd action in order to be able to cast something like Black Tentacles, but move+Crushing Despair works just fine there.
My style focuses on math fixing because we have a 5 player party. That usually means we are fighting harder enemies than the standard party. Beyond that, our group likes severe and extreme encounters for our level, so we do end up fighting a level+4 monster in most of our campaign arcs. Being able to stack Inspire Heroics and Dirge for up to a 4 swing in the math and still cast spells is extremely satisfying in these circumstances.
Lots of previous threads on Synaptic Pulse and they all come to the conclusion that RAW, it requires all creatures (allies and enemies) other than yourself to make a save. The RAI is where there is a question because the first sentence is not your normal "fluff." By using the term "enemies" in the sentence it reads as if it should be rules text. (Interestingly "Enemy," while used frequently throughout the CRB, does not appear to be defined explicitly only as contrasted with Ally/GM call) {please point me to the correct page with the definition if I am wrong}
Absent an official clarification, it seems to be a spell used to clear a horde of evil minions (incapacitation means your allies should be mostly safe if you keep it 1 level below max). Thus, it has a place as a level -1 spell to prevent horde tactics
Nope. You are misrepresenting the results of those threads.
We all agree it should be cleaned up. It is a simple chose A or B scenario, we just don't see any point in continuing to argue about it. There is no consensus.All the rules are sadly written in natural English. The use of structured langauge has been deliberately avoided in many places. The text makes sense and doesn't contradict the later sentence, just modifes it. It should be followed. Enemies only... I see that as RAW, you don't.
A spell can affect all enemies and also affect all creatures. This is not a contradiction.
If a spell only affects enemies, it can't also affect all creatures. This would be a contradiction.
On the topic of the thread, Hallucination can function as a sort-of control spell with creative application as you can cause a creature to take strange actions.
Out of the spells mentioned, Black Tentacles seems like the most generally useful one with an easier to use range + area, while Crushing Despair seems like it could be extremely potent given the right circumstances. I like the eldritch flavor of Black Tentacles.
I considered Crushing Despair but two saves is pretty bad.