Wall of force is invisible. Light passes through it. Does darkness (as from the deeper darkness spell) pass through it? And if not, does light from the daylight spell pass through it? Line of effect, invisibility, and illumination rules all come into play.
This mess came up in our game last night, and our collective brains cramped up. Please help.
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I would say yes because wall of force blocks line of effect.
Illumination has no real effects on this since both those spells don't summon a point of illumination but instead an area of magical light/darkness. The magical area would be unable to cross the wall of force.
I think you could make some logical case if daylight is cast on one side of the wall of force although it ends there, does it create a lower level of illumination on the other side of the wall. I think a torch would shine past..
Personally I would say no, given that:
It is invisible
Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
It seems purely visual effects are not hindered by a wall of force. Light and darkness being a visual effect would not be altered, imo.
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I would also say no. Wall of force creates an invisible barrier between point A and point B. Deeper Darknerss and daylight cause an object touched to radiate darkness/light. Wall of force as bbangerter said doesn't stop gaze attacks or mention anything about impeding light. Therefore we know things can go through it. You have a object like a torch the light goes through it, you have an object that radiates light/dark they also go through it.
Darkness
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius.
Deeper Darkness
Functions as Darkness.
Daylight.
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius.
Wall of Force
School evocation [force]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Subdomain isolation 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered quartz)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
A wall of force creates an invisible wall of pure force. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of force is immune to dispel magic, although a mage’s disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of force can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a wall of force.
Breath weapons and , although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
No, Daylight and Deeper Darkness cannot pass through a Wall of Force. Torches are mundane so yes their light would pass, Daylight/Darkness is magical, so it wouldn't.
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In the example given, the spell isn't passing through the Wall of Force. The spell is being cast on one side and the 'illumination' created by the spell is passing through the wall.
Wall of Force is not an unbeatable anti-magic field. It doesn't strip away illusions, remove invisibility, et cetera. It is not True Seeing in wall shape. It blocks spells, not the effects of spells. If you cast a Mythic fireball at it the spell won't pass through the wall... but the explosion still impacts the wall and COULD be powerful enough to destroy it. You can't cast a summon creature spell from one side of the wall targeted on the other... but if you summon an ethereal creature it can walk right through the wall.
Et cetera. The wall is invisible. Ergo, light (and magically created darkness) pass right through it.
In the example given, the spell isn't passing through the Wall of Force. The spell is being cast on one side and the 'illumination' created by the spell is passing through the wall.
Wall of Force is not an unbeatable anti-magic field. It doesn't strip away illusions, remove invisibility, et cetera. It is not True Seeing in wall shape. It blocks spells, not the effects of spells. If you cast a Mythic fireball at it the spell won't pass through the wall... but the explosion still impacts the wall and COULD be powerful enough to destroy it. You can't cast a summon creature spell from one side of the wall targeted on the other... but if you summon an ethereal creature it can walk right through the wall.
Et cetera. The wall is invisible. Ergo, light (and magically created darkness) pass right through it.
No, Ethereal creatures cannot pass through it, they have to go around it. And using that logic of a fireball and spell effects, would the secondary effect of a fireball go through it and cause combustible material to catch fire and low melting point metals to melt from the heat? I don’t think so. Not unless the Fireball destroys the Wall of Force.
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Daylight
School evocation [light]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, paladin 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain day 3, light 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this .Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, shaman 3; Domain darkness 3
EFFECT
Duration 10 min./level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become dark. This functions like darkness, but even creatures with darkvision cannot see within the spell’s confines.
This spell does not stack with itself. Deeper darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Wall of Force
School evocation [force]; Level magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Subdomain isolation 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered quartz)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration 1 round /level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
A wall of force creates an invisible wall of pure force. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of force is immune to dispel magic, although a mage’s disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of force can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which automatically destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of force has hardness 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of cancellation instantly destroys a wall of force.
Breath weapons and , although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
Wall of force can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
So no, Deeper Darkness and Daylight do not pass through. It is magical light and supernatural dark, and neither pass through a Wall of Force.
...fireball and spell effects, would the secondary effect of a fireball go through it and cause combustible material to catch fire and low melting point metals to melt from the heat? I don’t think so.
A fireball, as you correctly note, would not damage things on the other side of the wall. But the damage done by a fireball is not a result of looking (or seeing) the fireball.
Do you believe visible spell manifestations cannot be seen through a wall of force?
If I cast a silent image on one side of the wall would characters on the other side be able to see the illusion?
Spells cannot target things on the other side of the wall, because it blocks line of effect. It does not however block line of sight. Light (and darkness) are line of sight dependent from their point of origin. Opague walls block line of sight and line of effect. Invisible walls of force block line of effect but not line of sight.
Yes, you would be able to see spell manifestations on the other side, and yes you would still be able to see Illusions on the other side, and that's because you have Line of Sight through the Wall of Force. You see things happening on the other side. You would even be able to see the Daylight spell on the other side, but its magical illumination would stop at the wall of force and wouldn't pass through.
You would be able to see the illumination on the other side because you have line of sight, but magical illumination from a spell that originates on the other side would not project through and then illuminate your side. You would still see it on the other side though, but the magical illumination would stop at the wall of force. Daylight doesn't stop being a spell once it's cast upon an object.
Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.
So I am seeing two competing facts: wall of force allows illumination to pass, and it blocks spell effects. So if the light/darkness is a spell effect, does it pass? I personally do not see a RAW reason to rule one way or the other. Frustrating.
So I am seeing two competing facts: wall of force allows illumination to pass, and it blocks spell effects. So if the light/darkness is a spell effect, does it pass? I personally do not see a RAW reason to rule one way or the other. Frustrating.
It allows mundane illumination to pass because of Line of Sight and the light from fire is not material. Torchlight would illuminate the other side with no problem.
An interesting example of this: go into a dark room and light a candle and place it next to the wall, then shine a flashlight at it. There will be a shadow of the candle, but the fire itself will not cast a shadow. It's not material.
Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.
So, if you are in a large room that is naturally dark and do the following.
Take a coin and cast daylight on it.
Then cast forcecage (solid walled 10-foot cube) such that the coin is trapped inside of the forcecage. What happens with someone with normal vision, low light vision, dark vision if they are outside of the box? can only the person with darkvision see the coin? or can everyone see it? What about someone who is standing directly in front of the box? Can their silhouette be observed by everyone or are they now invisible to normal and low light vision for some reason?
What about someone sitting inside of the box with the coin?
If the person inside the box only has normal vision, are they immune to the gaze attacks of creatures outside of the box?
Would a character inside of the cube be immune to the fascination effect of the spell Rainbow Pattern? As it's only blocked if the creature's line of sight is blocked.
The fact that gaze attacks work, seems to suggest that anything that relies purely on line of sight still works through a wall of force.
A forcecage does not seem to meet the definition of a "light proof container" as it is very specifically invisible and allows light to pass through it.
Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.So, if you are in a large room that is naturally dark and do the following.
Take a coin and cast daylight on it.
Then cast forcecage (solid walled 10-foot cube) such that the coin is trapped inside of the forcecage. What happens with someone with normal vision, low light vision, dark vision if they are outside of the box? can only the person with darkvision see the coin? or can everyone see it? What about someone who is standing directly in front of the box? Can their silhouette be observed by everyone or are they now invisible to normal and low light vision for some reason?What about someone sitting inside of the box with the coin?
If the person inside the box only has normal vision, are they immune to the gaze attacks of creatures outside of the box?
Would a character inside of the cube be immune to the fascination effect of the spell Rainbow Pattern? As it's only blocked if the creature's line of sight is blocked.
The fact that gaze attacks work, seems to suggest that anything that relies purely on line of sight still works through a wall of force.
A forcecage does not seem to meet the definition of a "light proof container" as it is very specifically invisible and allows light to pass through it.
A barred forcecage would allow magical light to escape, but the windowless cell version would not. If there was no other light source in the room, the forcecage with the daylight coin would appear as a glowing cube but no magical light would escape from it, so the entire rest of the room would be pitch black (provided there are no windows in the room or another light source). You could see everything inside the forcecage though, including the coin. If someone was standing in front of the forcecage, yes you would see their silhouette.
If a person inside the forcecage has normal vision, they would be immune to gaze attacks from the outside because they cannot see anything— it would be pitch black to them, but those with darkvision can still meet the gaze of someone outside because they can see everything going on outside the forcecage, so gaze attacks would affect them because gaze attacks require line of sight. It would be the same for Rainbow Pattern and other illusion effects.
Introducing torchlight on the outside of the forcecage would change all of that for a person with normal vision though because now the person on the inside of a forcecage can see what’s going on outside, so gaze attacks and rainbow patterns and illusions would affect them normally.
Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.
Added some emphasis to what you quoted.
A wall of force is not a light-proof covering. Quite the opposite by virtue of it being invisible. It's not a question that a wall of force blocks line of effect. You need to show that a emanation of magical light is blocked by the line of effect in this case.
Which given your stance on the visual illumination of an illusion being visible I find interesting. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Light/darkness is a magical source that effects what you are seeing. An illusion is also an magical source that effects what you are seeing. Why is one blocked by WoF and the other is not?
Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.Added some emphasis to what you quoted.
A wall of force is not a light-proof covering. Quite the opposite by virtue of it being invisible. It's not a question that a wall of force blocks line of effect. You need to show that a emanation of magical light is blocked by the line of effect in this case.
Which given your stance on the visual illumination of an illusion being visible I find interesting. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Light/darkness is a magical source that effects what you are seeing. An illusion is also an magical source that effects what you are seeing. Why is one blocked by WoF and the other is not?
A light proof covering can be as mundane as an opaque rag or a cardboard box. My point in quoting that was proof that daylight and deeper darkness are affected by Line of Effect, and a Wall of Force is indisputably a Line of Effect for spells. So I want you to imagine putting a Daylight spell on a coin, and then covering it with a cardboard box. The illumination would stop at each surface. Now picture the cardboard box as a one-way window that allows line of sight inside but doesn't allow the light to escape. That's kinda what it would look like. It would glow, but provide no illumination outside of the box.
You would see the daylight spell on the other side of a WoF or FC, but my point of all this is that the magical illumination would not illuminate your side.
The visual illumination from an illusion would not pass through the wall of force or a forcecage, but you would merely see the illusion and believe it because you cannot interact with it to provoke a Will Save to disbelieve it. WoF and FC do not block Line of Sight, which is absolutely required for an Illusion to affect a target.
The only similar example I can think of was in AD&D, and the writer clearly assumed that a continual light spell could illuminate the inside (other side) of a wall of force. Which is the way it seems best to me FWIW.
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Another thing to consider:
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.Clearly, Daylight can be blocked with Line of Effect. Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for Spells, Material things, and Ethereal things.Added some emphasis to what you quoted.
A wall of force is not a light-proof covering. Quite the opposite by virtue of it being invisible. It's not a question that a wall of force blocks line of effect. You need to show that a emanation of magical light is blocked by the line of effect in this case.
Which given your stance on the visual illumination of an illusion being visible I find interesting. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
Light/darkness is a magical source that effects what you are seeing. An illusion is also an magical source that effects what you are seeing. Why is one blocked by WoF and the other is not?
A light proof covering can be as mundane as an opaque rag or a cardboard box. My point in quoting that was proof that daylight and deeper darkness are affected by Line of Effect, and a Wall of Force is indisputably a Line of Effect for spells. So I want you to imagine putting a Daylight spell on a coin, and then covering it with a cardboard box. The illumination would stop at each surface. Now picture the cardboard box as a one-way window that allows line of sight inside but doesn't allow the light to escape. That's kinda what it would look like. It would glow, but provide no illumination outside of the box.
You would see the daylight spell on the other side of a WoF or FC, but my point of all this is that the magical illumination would not illuminate your side.
The visual illumination from an illusion would not pass through the wall of force or a forcecage, but you would merely see the illusion and believe it because you cannot interact with it...
Your introducing a third state there though which is not how it works. If the wall of force blocks spells as you say then it BLOCKS everything that's about a spell. Illusion on the other side you can't see it, fireball hits the wall of force you can't see it, invisible person on the other side you can see them, your cube is dark because the light is stopped by the force cube. The wall blocks the spell and thus you can't see it. You can't have a cube glow because that glow is created by a spell effect which by your argument is blocked. Its not a torch shining on a one way window its a torch shining on a stone cube.
If as we read it it stops a spell passing through (fireball is a glowing point fired from your finger to detonate) then the spell can't be cast through it but you can see it clearly on the other side. You can see the illusion, you can see the fireball hitting the wall, you can't see the invisible person and the magical light emanating from the source affects you on the other side as do gaze attacks and normal torch's.
The wall of force as said above blocks line of effect not line of sight and light is not stopped by line of effect. A daylight spell is on the object and causes it to radiate light equivilent to daylight, Darkness and Deeper Darkness radiate antilight. Neither is directing a spell outwards.
The visual illumination from an illusion would not pass through the wall of force or a forcecage, but you would merely see the illusion and believe it because you cannot interact with it...
But... you see things as a result of light from a source reaching your eyeballs. While an illusion spell does not give off any actual light that will illuminate the surrounding area, either the "magic light" of the illusion needs to reach your eyeballs, or the magic of the illusion needs to reach fool your brain. In both cases the magic of the illusion is originating from the location of the illusion - which based on your reasoning for light/darkness spells should also be blocked by the WoF as it is blocking line of effect from the origin source. The reason a light proof covering stops a light spell is because it blocks line of sight. e.g, in theory we could have a wall of darkness that blocks line of sight, and prevents light from passing through it, that does not at the same time block line of effect - that is our pretend wall of darkness is insubstantial and things can pass right through it. The WoF is just the opposite of this wall of darkness. Blocks loe, but not los.
A WoF is more like a glass bottle placed over a coin with daylight on it. E.g, it might create some rainbow patters on the other side, but does not limit the visibility of that light.
But let me try asking with an alternate question.
Assume we have a dark cave with two characters in it. Neither has darkvision.
A character casts a light spell on something they are holding, then we put up a wall of force between the two characters.
The question then, what can each character see?
Suppose a wizard on the far side of a wall of force casts a fireball, frying some goblins. Can you see fire, or do you just see a puff of (non-glowing) smoke which somehow leaves the goblins with burns? The light of the fire is certainly generated by the spell.
Sure we can always just say "because magic". But I don't find answers of that kind very satisfying. Even magic has rules, even if we don't understand them all. But the game does use the real world as the most basic foundation, which it then alters for the fantasy setting, existence of magic, pantheon of gods, and rules to make it all playable at a table. e.g, we don't have to explain what a humanoid is. We don't have to explain that the world is made of rocks, and dirt, and minerals. We don't have to explain that plants grow on it. We don't have to explain that there are farmers, and shopkeepers, and soldiers. We do need to explain how we translate those professions into rules elements, and how that translates into a made up monetary system. But we likewise don't have to explain that glass is transparent, and that stone is not. Those are all givens.
We have rules about how light and darkness spells interact. We don't have any rules about how light/darkness and force walls interact. But we know what it means when something is invisible. It doesn't cast a shadow.
I’m actually inclined to believe both sides of the argument for this one...
On one hand the light itself should by all means pass through the invisible wall illuminating everything around it... It just makes all too much sense that it would work this way...
However, on the other hand if it blocks the magical light from illuminating things on the other side of the wall, then it actually provides for some very interesting interactions... as well as some unique options for maps...
First off, the unusual cube of pure light within a cavern of absolute darkness is a rather intriguing visual image that can be used to captivate your players and have them curiously investigating the surrounding area. A distraction you can use against them if you so desire.
What I find most fascinating about this possible interaction though is far more intriguing. Imagine if you will, you enter a very large room, it appears to be completely empty, the party takes a few steps forwards and walks face first into an invisible wall, it is at this moment they realize, the room isn’t as empty as they thought it was... moments later every light source in the room goes out. A voice echoes through the chamber, “By torch or candle the path is unseen”... the party stands there puzzled in pitch darkness as a party member who can’t see in the dark struggles to light a torch... only to have the party’s spell caster cast a light spell moments before they get their torch lit. Directly before them they see a wall of darkness, but to their left they can see a corridor illuminated by the spell, but as quickly as they see the path and the wall, they both vanish as the fighter succeeds in lighting his torch, illuminating the entire area around them.
Seriously how cool would it be to have an encounter with a maze made up of walls of force that the party can only navigate via magical illumination... or heck, the lights in the room could even remain lit, but instead require the use of a darkness spell to deilluminate the path...
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I’m actually inclined to believe both sides of the argument for this one...
On one hand the light itself should by all means pass through the invisible wall illuminating everything around it... It just makes all too much sense that it would work this way...
However, on the other hand if it blocks the magical light from illuminating things on the other side of the wall, then it actually provides for some very interesting interactions... as well as some unique options for maps...
First off, the unusual cube of pure light within a cavern of absolute darkness is a rather intriguing visual image that can be used to captivate your players and have them curiously investigating the surrounding area. A distraction you can use against them if you so desire.
What I find most fascinating about this possible interaction though is far more intriguing. Imagine if you will, you enter a very large room, it appears to be completely empty, the party takes a few steps forwards and walks face first into an invisible wall, it is at this moment they realize, the room isn’t as empty as they thought it was... moments later every light source in the room goes out. A voice echoes through the chamber, “By torch or candle the path is unseen”... the party stands there puzzled in pitch darkness as a party member who can’t see in the dark struggles to light a torch... only to have the party’s spell caster cast a light spell moments before they get their torch lit. Directly before them they see a wall of darkness, but to their left they can see a corridor illuminated by the spell, but as quickly as they see the path and the wall, they both vanish as the fighter succeeds in lighting his torch, illuminating the entire area around them.
Seriously how cool would it be to have an encounter with a maze made up of walls of force that the party can only navigate via magical illumination... or heck, the lights in the room could even remain lit, but instead require the use of a darkness spell to deilluminate the path...
If you want to do something like that for a game idea go ahead it sounds interesting and fun.
The issue for this thread is in how the spells and light works. Light travels from a source, hits an object, some bands are absorbed, some are reflected and that reflected light hits our eyes allowing us to "see" the object. The reason we cant see through a stonewall is that it is reflecting light/colour to us. A window allows light to pass through, hit an object inside the room and reflect back out.
Daylight and darkness dont alter the lighting in an area they create light/dark that radiates out. I cant really talk about dark and speed of dark, etc. I can however say that daylight makes an object radiate white light as bright as day. That light is your source of illumination/sight. If the wall of force blocks it then it blocks all of it and you see nothing, if it doesnt block it then your area on the other side is also illimunated by the radiated/reflected light. We know gaze attacks pass through for a gaze attack to work one of you at least must be able to see the other. Thus the light passes through to illuminate the attacker/victim. Assuming of course you cant gaze attack in the dark.
I am now picturing a coloured/prismatic wall of force that only lets certain bands of colour through.
Well as I said, I’m inclined to believe both sides of the argument...
Taking the spell completely at face value, I personally have to say that the illumination passes through the wall... as light spells are blocked by line of sight... darkness spells on the other hand are blocked by line of effect, however their line of effect can pass over obstacles and wrap around them.
A 5 foot tall section of wall 15 feet long doesn’t prevent a darkness spell from encompassing the other side of the ends of the wall are within the spell area or if their is no roof connected at the top of the wall. So, a wall of Force would face the same issues with darkness... however should the wall fully block line of effect for darkness cutting off any path to the other side of the wall, then yes the darkness would absolutely stop abruptly at the walls location.
Just after reading the back and forth in here though, I can see a solid argument for both sides. And while at face value I do agree completely with, Daylight illuminating both sides... I’m deeply intrigued by the interactions and options made available by the other viewpoint...
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Well as I said, I’m inclined to believe both sides of the argument...
Taking the spell completely at face value, I personally have to say that the illumination passes through the wall... as light spells are blocked by line of sight... darkness spells on the other hand are blocked by line of effect, however their line of effect can pass over obstacles and wrap around them.
A 5 foot tall section of wall 15 feet long doesn’t prevent a darkness spell from encompassing the other side of the ends of the wall are within the spell area or if their is no roof connected at the top of the wall. So, a wall of Force would face the same issues with darkness... however should the wall fully block line of effect for darkness cutting off any path to the other side of the wall, then yes the darkness would absolutely stop abruptly at the walls location.
Just after reading the back and forth in here though, I can see a solid argument for both sides. And while at face value I do agree completely with, Daylight illuminating both sides... I’m deeply intrigued by the interactions and options made available by the other viewpoint...
Like I said if you want to go that way it sounds interesting and it'd be easy enough to justify as "unique spell research" we already have a dozen or so wall spells I'm pretty sure no one uses e,g blindness/deafness, silver, ectoplasm, split illumination (one side radiates darkness the other light and it blocks sight), brine.
Heck just look at arcane healing suggest a wizard research cure/heal/restoration spells and people will bite your head off about stepping on the sacred cow sorry cleric's toes. Even though I've been in multiple games where NO ONE wanted to play a cleric or even a divine healer. Then there was one player who basically used their healing spells on themself and told the rest of us to use items. Still that's a seperate rage war. . . I don't know why I just wrote this paragraph. . . I'll leave it as I'm sure I had some point I was making, don't know what it was though.
A spell with an area of effect should be block at the force wall.
The only thing that makes this confusing is that light radiates from objects/points. And in PF1 darkness is treated as...also radiating.
If this was a 20ft radius effect only, it would be blocked at the well, because it affects a specific area.
But since both light and darkness radiate, and wall of force would not block the radiating effect since it's clear...I'm inclined to say they work through the wall of force.
Now, if this were a wall of stone, then it would 100% block it. It's only because wall of force is clear that it goes through. Wall of Force is like really strong really thin glass.
You would still see fireballs and light and illusions and everything else on the other side of a Wall of Force guys. It doesn't block any of that, you can see right through the Wall of Force. I'm not saying that you can't see light on the other side, I'm saying that illumination from magical light stops at the wall of force.
This might not be RAI, but this is definitely RAW.
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Let's say that X is on one side of a Wall of Force, and he has no illumination whatsoever-- no torch, no daylight spell, no windows, nothing; and Y is on the other side of the Wall of Force, and he's also in a windowless room but he's holding a coin with a Daylight spell on it. Both X and Y have Normal Vision.
In this example, X would be standing in a completely dark room, and probably couldn't even see his own feet, but X would be able to see through the Wall of Force to the Y side. X would be able to see Y, the coin that Y is holding, and the entire room and everything happening on the Y side.
Conversely, Y would not be able to see X, nor would Y be able to see anything in X's room.
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.....................X....|***Y******************
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So now Y backs up, and casts a Fireball on the Wall of Force, illustrated as "F" below. X would be able to see spell manifestation from Y, and the fireball as it hits the Wall of Force. None of the heat or illumination from the fireball would pass to X's side, but X can see everything happening on that side. X's side still remains dark, Y's side still remains magically illuminated by the Daylight spell.
...........................|FFF*********************
...........................|FFFF*********************
...........................|FFFFF*********************
.....................X....|FFFFFF******************Y**
...........................|FFFFF*********************
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...........................|FFF*********************
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Y is still holding the Daylight coin, and casts an Illusion like Silent Image. X can see the Illusion, but cannot interact with it to disbelieve it yet, therefore X believes it is real.
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.....................X....|****Illusion*******Y***
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Y covers the Daylight coin with an opaque rag to prevent the Daylight spell from illuminating the room while the Silent Image Illusion is still active. X can no longer see the Illusion, nor can he see anything in Y's room. Both rooms are completely dark.
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.....................X....|......Illusion.................Y......
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Y ends his Illusion spell and keeps the Daylight coin covered with the opaque rag, and X lights a torch and realizes that the Illusion is now gone. The illumination from the Torch passes through to the other side, but X cannot see Y because he's too far away. Y can now see X and the torch just fine. Y can see everything in X's and Y's room just fine, except for where there is no torchlight. So at this point, Y probably cannot see his own feet because it's too dark where he's at.
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...........tttttttttttttt|tttttttttttttttt..........................
......ttttttttttttXtttt|ttttttttttttttttt..........Y......
...........tttttttttttttt|tttttttttttttttt..........................
..............tttttttttttt|ttttttttttttt.............................
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Y keeps the Daylight coin covered with the opaque rag and walks forward while X keeps his torch lit. X and Y can see each other just fine now.
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..............tttttttttttt|ttttttttttttt.............................
...........tttttttttttttt|tttttttttttttttt..........................
......ttttttttttttXtttt|ttttYtttttttttt................
...........tttttttttttttt|tttttttttttttttt..........................
..............tttttttttttt|ttttttttttttt.............................
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Y uncovers the Daylight Coin and X keeps his torch lit. The Torch light still passes through to the Y side (but I can't draw both, so just pretend the torchlight is still there on the Y side), and now the Daylight coin is fully illuminating the Y room again. Both X and Y can see each other and everything going on in each other's rooms, except Y cannot see beyond X's torchlight in the back of X's room.
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......ttttttttttttXtttt|***Y******************
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X puts out his torchlight, and Y calls for his buddy Z. Z has darkvision. Y can no longer see X, but Z can.
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.....................X....|***Y******************
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...........................|******Z***************
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I disagree, because light and darkness are both spells that affect an object or a point and they "radiate" light or darkness. The spell is not emanating through the wall. It create a magical point of light...which generates light, like a candle or torch, or whatever (depending on the spell).
I disagree, because light and darkness are both spells that affect an object or a point and they "radiate" light or darkness. The spell is not emanating through the wall. It create a magical point of light...which generates light, like a candle or torch, or whatever (depending on the spell).
But it specifically says in the Daylight and Deeper Darkness spells that it's a magical light and a supernatural dark (still magical). And Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for all spells, and provides no exception in the spell description for anything except certain teleportation effects like D Door and Teleport (because they don't require line of sight or line of effect).
I disagree, because light and darkness are both spells that affect an object or a point and they "radiate" light or darkness. The spell is not emanating through the wall. It create a magical point of light...which generates light, like a candle or torch, or whatever (depending on the spell).But it specifically says in the Daylight and Deeper Darkness spells that it's a magical light and a supernatural dark (still magical). And Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for all spells, and provides no exception in the spell description for anything except certain teleportation effects like D Door and Teleport (because they don't require line of sight or line of effect).
Th problem as I see it, is that line of effect isn't required for the light travel in this. Light is special in this case, because basically everything else requires line of effect, but light goes through glass.
A torch light would go through a wall of force.
And while it's not terribly clear, I think light from spells would go through a wall of force. Because while the source of the light is magic, I'm not sure the light itself is.
I don't think the rules are terribly clear in either case, I just happen to think this is the way to play it out.
Would you play darkness the same way? Would it also pass through, essentially as "anti-light"? :D
I certainly would since light and darkness effects should be handled the same way. Light sources are just easier to visualize than "darkness sources" are. :)
Would you play darkness the same way? Would it also pass through, essentially as "anti-light"? :DI disagree, because light and darkness are both spells that affect an object or a point and they "radiate" light or darkness. The spell is not emanating through the wall. It create a magical point of light...which generates light, like a candle or torch, or whatever (depending on the spell).But it specifically says in the Daylight and Deeper Darkness spells that it's a magical light and a supernatural dark (still magical). And Wall of Force blocks Line of Effect for all spells, and provides no exception in the spell description for anything except certain teleportation effects like D Door and Teleport (because they don't require line of sight or line of effect).Th problem as I see it, is that line of effect isn't required for the light travel in this. Light is special in this case, because basically everything else requires line of effect, but light goes through glass.
A torch light would go through a wall of force.
And while it's not terribly clear, I think light from spells would go through a wall of force. Because while the source of the light is magic, I'm not sure the light itself is.
I don't think the rules are terribly clear in either case, I just happen to think this is the way to play it out.
Yes. But basically only light and darkness.
Daylight
School evocation [light]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, paladin 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain day 3, light 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this .Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, shaman 3; Domain darkness 3
EFFECT
Duration 10 min./level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become . This functions like darkness, but even creatures with darkvision cannot see within the spell’s confines.
This spell does not stack with itself. Deeper darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
It's not mundane light or darkness though. It's magical and supernatural (supernatural is different, but still magical). I believe that this light and darkness would not pass through the Wall of Force for the same reason that the light and heat from a Fireball would also not pass though-- it's a magical spell.
I mean, am I completely off-base here? If I am I'll shut up.
...Daylight
School evocation [light]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, paladin 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain day 3, light 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this .Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, shaman 3; Domain darkness 3
EFFECT
Duration 10 min./level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become . This functions like darkness,
The same way you can see a Torch in the distance. It doesn't illuminate the area around you, but you can still see it.
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Daylight
School evocation [light]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, paladin 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain day 3, light 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this .Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
...Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, shaman 3; Domain darkness 3
EFFECT
Duration 10 min./level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become . This functions like darkness, but even creatures with
Just to be clear the issue for me is your trying to have your cake and eat it too. The way light works is that it radiates out from a source, hits objects and is reflected/absorbed then hits your eyes which is how we see things. I think daylight/darkness should not be stopped because while the light/darkness source is magical the actual darkness/light isn't and that's what is passing through the wall of force. I could also with only minor grumpiness play in a game where wall of force stopped magical light even if I don't agree with how that works.
The point where I have an issue is that if the magical light is illuminating one side of the room to see it you HAVE to have it pass through the wall. Its the only way for light to actually work. Basically its an either or state.
1) Light/Darkness from the spells pass through and illuminate/obscure things as normal. My preference.
(You) <- (Object) <- | <- (Object) <- (Light source)
OR
2) Light/Darkness are stopped by the wall of force and you can't see anything. The daylight lighting up the other side of the room is magical in nature, is stopped and thus you can't see anything because no reflected light is able to pass through. Minor grumpiness.
(Dark) | (Dark)
Now if you were on the side with a light source yes you may have illumination stopped at the wall of force.
(Dark) | <- (Object) <- (Light source and you)
3) What your asking for though is for the other side and something that both passes through and doesn't pass through at the same time. That is on side A it illuminates things and Side B it doesn't but in order to see what's being illuminated on side A it has to pass through. Its in two states at the same time both stopping the magical light and allowing the magical light.
(Dark and you) | <- (Object) <- (Light source)
Now as I said my preference is one because the light/darkness isn't a spell per se. It may be magical (your reference to supernatural darkness) but so are gaze attacks and we know the wall of force doesn't stop them it stops SPELLS which is a particular type of magic but it doesn't stop MAGIC. All spells are magical but not all magical effects are spells. The spell in this case is the original point of origin for the darkness/light while what is radiating out is magical. So it will pass through a wall of force but not through an anti-magic zone.
Daylight
School evocation [light]; Level bard 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, magus 3, paladin 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3; Subdomain day 3, light 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this .Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.
If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
...Deeper Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3, shaman 3; Domain darkness 3
EFFECT
Duration 10 min./level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become . This functions like darkness, but even creatures with
You're not completely off base, I just don't find it convincing.
Because the language that light and darkness and force wall use are kind of imprecise. And because the rules for how light and darkness work have never really adhered to what was written or how it played it.
I also would have said that the light from a fireball would pass through a wall of force, again because light.
I'm nto saying you're wrong and I'm right, I'm just saying this way makes the most sense to me.
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I was more talking about something at a distance you can touch. The torch even at a distance illuminates things around it making them visible to you (at a distance) as well... at least to an extent.
The same way you can see a Torch in the distance. It doesn't illuminate the area around you, but you can still see it.
Even if the torch somehow didn't illuminate things around it for you to see it at all the light has to reach you.
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I asked James Jacobs about Force effects blocking the Illumination from Daylight and Supernatural dark from Deeper Darkness, and he said No.
Obligatory JJ is not a rules guy, but his statement backs up my position ...so I'm good with it.
I asked James Jacobs about Force effects blocking the Illumination from Daylight and Supernatural dark from Deeper Darkness, and he said No.
Huzzah! Thanks for jumping in. :)
It seems like a common enough interaction that someone would have asked before.