Dual Weapon Crit Fisher Build (Half - Elf) need Help choosing a class ( level 3-9)


Advice


So I realised after looking over the past 10 characters I've played I mostly tend to play Range/Spell caster characters and I want to play a good ol Slash them up melee character.

I would like to dual wield A leafblade with a Thornblade but I am unsure of what class to choose. Part of me thinks ranger could be fun with Two weapon fighting STYLE but then I think maybe there's something else


Slayer, Ranger, Fighter, Brawler, Warpriest, and Rogues all make amazing dual-wield crit fishers, so it's kinda up to you on what flavor you want.

So do you want to cast spells? If so, Ranger or Warpriest would do well. Want a ton of Feats? Ranger, Brawler, Slayer, or Fighter would do well. Want really high SnA or Stealth? Rogue or Slayer. Track things? Ranger or Slayer.

Thornblade & Leafblade? You sold on going Half Elf then? Or would you consider Elf or other races? If you're absolutely sold on using these weapons, Brawler wouldn't work.

Point Buy or Rolled Stats?

Also, Dual Wielders make excellent candidates for Combat Maneuvers in lieu of Attacks, Combat Reflexes, and AoO builds, so would you be wanting to do combat maneuvers in lieu of attacks, like Greater Trip for provoking AoO? Or Quick Dirty Trick + Dirty Trick Master for debuffing/survivability instead?

What campaign are you doing? What level are you starting at and what appropriate level will your campaign end? How many players do you have and do you know your party’s class choices yet?

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Give us some details about your overall vision for this character, and we can suggest builds that will better suit what you're going after.


I like Warpriest for a Crit-fishing build. Take Weapon focus for your weapons and inflict Sacred Weapon Damage instead of your regular Damage. That way you get lots of attacks that are likely to Crit and you get good Base Damage. If you dip a level in Ranger, and a level in Living Monolith when your BAB is high enough, you can enjoy a 2 spot Size Increase, doubled when you Crit.

Be a Divine Commander, and take Seize the Moment or Outflank and give Attacks of Opportunity to Allies whenever you score a Crit. Dip a level in Cavalier, and get Paired Opportunist, and then you get AoOs too. Maybe take Tripping Strike or something and score free Trips whenever you Crit and generate more Attacks of Opportunity that way.

When you can, take Improved Crit and Crit Focus, of course. Take one of those nasty Crit Feats like Blinding Critical.


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If you're going to TWF, it's the best time to go Quick Dirty Trick + Dirty Trick Master. It only eats up one of your attacks to make a Quick Dirty Trick and it's some of the nastiest debuffing in the game (Blind, Nauseate, Dazed, etc.) You're Half-Elf, so you can pick Human or Elf Slayer FCB, so pick the Human FCB 1/6 slayer talent.

This is a Dirty Tricks Slayer build I came up with a while back and I sent this guy and a 2handed Slayer to assassinate my party of 5 PC’s. At level 12, they caused 3 player deaths in 6 rounds, so this build is not only a battlefield controller with Dirty Tricks, but also built for high damage.

25pt buy - Half-Elf Slayer
Str 13 (for carrying capacity and power attack—> Cornugon Smash)
Dex 20(18+2racial)
Con 14
Int 7 (you get 6+int skills per level, you don't actually need int, and you can keep at least 3-4 maxed, you can buff int with items later)
Wis 12
Cha 12

If you don't like dumping Int, dump Cha instead, or divide points between the two. I wouldn't sacrifice your Wisdom though. Slayers' fatal flaw is their Will Save. If you get Dominated or Mind Controlled, you're going to put your whole group in the hospital or the grave.

Enchants:
Keen (+1)
Agile (+1)
Cruel (+1)

Skills:
Stealth (Max)
Intimidate (Max)

Traits:
Dangerously Curious - for UMD so you can buff yourself wands and scrolls
Heirloom Weapon - +2 CMB to Dirty Trick
or
Child of the Moon - +1, +2, or +4 to Stealth, depending on the Moon Cycle

For TWF, get Dual-Balanced, Keen, Agile, Cruel Leafblade and Thornblade.

1lv Weapon Finesse (get +1 Agile enchants asap)
1lv: Skill Focus: Stealth
2lv: Slayer Talent RCS: TWF
3lv: Dirty Fighting
4lv Slayer Talent: Poison Use, +1dex
5lv: Improved Dirty Trick
6lv: Slayer Talent RCS: Imp TWF
6lv Extra Slayer Talent: Combat Trick: Quick Dirty Trick <---- You can start Blinding as a Quick Dirty Trick with your First Attack every Round, and you should have 4 attacks per round now. You'll have 5 attacks per round with Haste, so now is a good time to pick up Boots of Speed or Wand of Haste.
7lv: Greater Dirty Trick
8lv Slayer Talent Defensive Study (Studied Target bonus to AC/CMD) or Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
9lv: Power Attack
10lv Slayer Advanced Talent: Feat: Cornugon Smash (get +1 Cruel enchant now)
11lv Dirty Trick Master
12lv Slayer Advanced Talent: Greater TWF, +1 dex
12lv Extra Slayer Talent: Opportunist

With Cruel Enchantment and Cornugon Smash, you can Intimidate every time you Power Attack, and cause -4 att, skills, saves, abilchecks, and a -2 dmg with Shaken/Sicken combo.

Get a Ring of Chameleon Power for a +10 Competence bonus to Stealth.

Pick out some Poisons that can really pile on the pressure as well. These are all great poisons to consider:
Drow Poison
Burnt Othur Fumes
Deathblade
Blue Whinnis
Diplopic Serum
Dreaming Death
Night's-Eye Dust
Rainbow Scarab Shell

You won't want to be doing UMD too much in combat, but before/after combat definitely. Wands and Scrolls to get for your UMD:

Invisibility or Greater Invisibility: +40 to stealth while standing still, +20 to stealth while moving, or if you sap someone and need to hide the body for a few minutes, put him in the corner of the room and cast invisibility on the body

Zone of Silence: No screams when you kill someone, and no noise when you roll a 1 on stealth and knock over the lamp.

Cat's Grace: +4 dex, for extra sneaky and +2 attack since you're using weapon finesse

Eagle's Splendor +4 cha, for those times you have to use Diplomacy/Bluff to infiltrate or get past the guards.

Long Arm: get an attack of opportunity when enemies move through the space you threaten, which is now 10ft

Haste: huge boost to movement speed, and extra attack on full round attack.

Pass without Trace: makes it harder to track you

Charm Person/Suggestion: when you need an NPC to be your friend or go do something for you

Jump/FeatherFall: Perfect for making escapes from 200ft towers, or trying to jump and float to a lower location

Lighten Object/Shrink Item: Stealing something from a Safe and you can't crack it within 30 seconds? Take the Safe with you. Also handy for stealing heavy McGuffins.

Instant Fake: Steal the McGuffin and leave a fake. The alarm doesn't get sounded until someone interacts with it or 1min/level goes by.

MonkeyFish/Air Bubble/Water Breathing: Have to infiltrate somewhere by climbing or swimming? You can stay completely submerged while crossing a running river.

Reduce Person/Gaseous Form: gotta crawl through something as small as a cat or dog door, or a crack in a stone wall?

Fly: For all those times where flying fixes everything. Get Necromantic Fly or Illusory Fly for when you need to fly through an anti-magic field.

Wizened/Youthful Appearance/Alter Self: Guards pursuing you, you run into an alley, zap yourself, the guards come running in, and you point down the alley, and cry for added effect, "he shoved me and it hurt! he went that way!"

Arcane Lock/Knock/Open and Shut: Need past a locked door? Knock. Need the door locked to ensure your escape? Arcane Lock. Need to mess with the guards to buy yourself some time? Open and Shut.

Web: Guards chasing you through a narrow corridor?

Adjustable Disguise: You could look like a city guard one second, and an old wizard the next second, and a gnome merchant the next. Switch 1costume/lvl as a swift action for 10min/lvl.

Disguise Other: You can make someone you just killed look like someone else, or you can disguise your buddy and yourself to look like city guards or thieves guild members, etc.

Detect Magic, Identify: Sometimes you just gotta know if something is magical, so you can steal it :)

Create Treasure Map: Kill someone and gain knowledge to where that tricksy filthy hobbit was hiding our lootses, precious.

Detect Thoughts/Detect Desires: Knowing what the guards are thinking/wanting can be pretty handy. Maybe the guard's wife is pregnant. /cast Disguise Self and run up to him, "Lisa is in labor! Go quick, I'll take over for you!"

Daylight/Deeper Darkness: Change the lighting in a room by two steps.

Spark: need something to catch on fire to provide a distraction? Or need to destroy some evidence?

Glitterdust: Blind and outline invisible creatures.

Summon Monster: Spot a trap that is impossible to disarm without getting pulverized? Summon the monster on top of the trap from a safe distance.

Comprehend Languages/Read Magic/Tongues: Communicate with everything, and if you come across some Magical Runes or Text, knowing what they say can be the difference between life and death.

Deflect Blame: "It wasn't me! It was the one-armed man!"

Dimension Door: Because 50 charges of *poof* *poof* *poof*

Ghost Sound/Minor Image/Major Image: Need to spook someone or cause a distraction?

Anthaul: Triple your carrying capacity for when you need to take as much stuff from a vault as possible.

Rope Trick: Sometimes they’re going to have See Invis or True Seeing and you don't want to leave, you just need to hide.

Arcane Sight/Dispel Magic: A magic trap, you say? *zap*

Aura Sight: Taverns attract all sorts of people, and knowing who the shady ones are is the cat's meow. Knowledge is power.

Ray of Exhaustion: Even on a failed save, they become fatigued. Fatigued targets cannot run or charge. Great for get-aways where you don't want to rack up a body count.

Wall of Force: Create a wall that is nigh impregnable and immune to dispel magic/anti-magic field, it also blocks spells and breath weapons

Anti-Magic Field: Gotta assassinate a wizard? Put an anti-magic field on yourself before you assassinate him.

Dimensional Anchor/Dimensional Lock: As a Slayer who slays many things, sometimes your combat prowess just so awesome that your enemy wants to show you how awesome his own teleport spell is.

Mage Hand/Telekinesis: Get both. Sometimes you just gotta move some stuff.

Break Enchantment/Remove Curse/Remove Disease: These are life savers.

Blood Scent: Track a wounded target.


This character starts out at level 3 and the campaign ends at level 9. As written in the title. So any proposed build should probably be passable at level 3 and fully online by level 6, in my opinion. Which is pretty early for a Dual Weapon Crit Fisher build.

You won't get access to Improved Critical until BAB +8 and you'd need to take it twice. You won't afford two +1 Keen weapons anytime soon, and bonus enhancement class features doesn't work well with two weapons.

If you want to crit often at that level range with two weapons, then five levels of Swashbuckler could work to get Improved Critical with both of them. Lots of other ways if you can settle for using one weapon, though.


Wonderstell wrote:

This character starts out at level 3 and the campaign ends at level 9.

Reading titles is hard! /hangs head in shame

Maybe just go for the Quick Dirty Tricks build, which comes online at lvl 6. You can still "psuedo" crit fish with 18-20 weapons.


An azatariel swashbuckler can TWF, and get improved crit at L5. It's not the strongest of the swashbuckler archetypes but it can be done. Or, a warpriest can make one of their weapons keen as a swift action, and can get improved damage to both if they take weapon focus a second time.


VMC Magus for pool points to add Keen for a minute. It'll come in kinda late, but you can get a lot of milage out if this.


avr wrote:
An azatariel swashbuckler can TWF, and get improved crit at L5. It's not the strongest of the swashbuckler archetypes but it can be done. Or, a warpriest can make one of their weapons keen as a swift action, and can get improved damage to both if they take weapon focus a second time.

I'm looking over the Azatariel on Nethys and I can't see a way for that Swashbuckler to get Improved crit early. What am I missing?


All swashbucklers get improved crit early, it's part of swashbuckler weapon training. The azatariel gets a replacement for precise strike though which is otherwise useless to a TWFer. Sorry, should have been clearer.


My personal advice would be to concentrate on a single light weapon if you are going to duel wield. That way any feats you take will work on both of your weapons.

A strength build is less constrained than a dex build. Dex build pushes you into either a single weapon Swashbuckler, or a TWF UC Rogue. Rogue doesn't synergise well with a crit fishing build. (let the arguments start)

Fighter gives you a lot of feats and class abilities that can make a great TWF build with an eye towards crits, but leaves you weak on saves and skills. Fighter is my number 1 recommendation for this type of build.

Warpriest gives you improving base damage, but a little lacking in feats and you're dependent on spells to buff your combat ability which gives you poor endurance. Oh, also you need to pump wis so less focused stats.

Rogue is...middling hp, 3/4 bab with no way to boost it, poor AC, but can be a single stat guy with tons of skill points, and a built in dex to damage and finesse. Starting at 3rd level means no painful levels waiting for dex to damage. Even more reason to use a single weapon in both hands. Crit fishing isn't really all that great considering that Sneak Attack doesn't benefit from it. At 3rd level it will be amazing, but as you progress to 9th level it will fall behind other melee damage dealers. Also Rogue suffers from having one good save, and it isn't will.

Ranger gives you ranger type skills. Really great combat bonuses vs a thing, which usually is less than 50% of the encounters even if you make an informed decision. The TWF fighting style isn't bad, but not nearly as many bonus feats as a fighter. Overall a more balanced character.

Hunter, Brawler and Slayer are also possibilities, but honestly I think no better than the ranger.

Swashbuckler is a one weapon pony. They lose a lot of class abilities if they chose to TWF, including their Finesse.


This isn't dependent on wielding a single weapon. Nothing that the swashbuckler does is, except precise strike. That's about half their damage so it's a big except, but...

swashbuckler finesse wrote:
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.


Wonderstell wrote:

This character starts out at level 3 and the campaign ends at level 9. As written in the title. So any proposed build should probably be passable at level 3 and fully online by level 6, in my opinion. Which is pretty early for a Dual Weapon Crit Fisher build.

You won't get access to Improved Critical until BAB +8 and you'd need to take it twice. You won't afford two +1 Keen weapons anytime soon, and bonus enhancement class features doesn't work well with two weapons.

If you want to crit often at that level range with two weapons, then five levels of Swashbuckler could work to get Improved Critical with both of them. Lots of other ways if you can settle for using one weapon, though.

Oops. But,

I still think Divine Champion Warpriest is not a bad way to go. The OP wants to use weapons with low base damage but high Threat Ranges and bonuses to Confirm. Levels in Warpriest will increase the Base Damage of their weapons which gets multiplied on Crits.

Divine Champion kicks in at level 3 Warpriest with Tactician and the Teamwork Feat, so Seize the Moment or Outflank is still on the table, as would be that 1 level dip in Cavalier for Paired Opportunist.

The fact that the campaign ends at level 9 means the OP should get Keen Weapons or Keen Blade, since the campaign won't go on for long enough for Improved Critical.

Another thought might be to go with levels in Fighter and use Advanced Weapon Training to do Sacred Weapon Damage and use Teamwork Feats, but 9 levels isnt' enough to accomplish both, since there are limits as to how many times you can take the Advanced Weapons Training Feat.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you're going to TWF, it's the best time to go Quick Dirty Trick + Dirty Trick Master.

When I think of Dirty Tricks, I think Blinding. When I think Blinding, I think Sneak Attack Damage.

Your character is taking levels in Slayer, so you must be thinking about Sneak Attack Damage at least a little bit.

I like inflicting Sneak Attack Damage, but I'm not entirely sanguine about combining Sneak Attack Damage with Crit Fishing. Maybe.

I noticed your build calls for taking Improved Dirty Trick as a level 5 Feat. I don't know if this would make a difference in your build, but Improved Dirty Trick is also available as the Rogue Talent Underhanded Trick, so it should also be available as a Slayer Talent.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

If you're going to TWF, it's the best time to go Quick Dirty Trick + Dirty Trick Master. It only eats up one of your attacks to make a Quick Dirty Trick and it's some of the nastiest debuffing in the game (Blind, Nauseate, Dazed, etc.) You're Half-Elf, so you can pick Human or Elf Slayer FCB, so pick the Human FCB 1/6 slayer talent.

This is a Dirty Tricks Slayer build I came up with a while back and I sent this guy and a 2handed Slayer to assassinate my party of 5 PC’s.At level 12, they caused 3 player deaths in 6 rounds,

Of curiosity, what builds died and which survived?
Quote:
so this build is not only a battlefield controller with Dirty Tricks, but also built for high damage.

<Nod> ...Dirty Tricks is Paizo's "Easy" button for getting-up-there martials. (To the OP: note that you likely start an arms-race with your GM in a mid-level home-game with DTs.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And now that you've seen a Dirty Tricks assassin build, try and defend against it.


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Slim Jim wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

If you're going to TWF, it's the best time to go Quick Dirty Trick + Dirty Trick Master. It only eats up one of your attacks to make a Quick Dirty Trick and it's some of the nastiest debuffing in the game (Blind, Nauseate, Dazed, etc.) You're Half-Elf, so you can pick Human or Elf Slayer FCB, so pick the Human FCB 1/6 slayer talent.

This is a Dirty Tricks Slayer build I came up with a while back and I sent this guy and a 2handed Slayer to assassinate my party of 5 PC’s.At level 12, they caused 3 player deaths in 6 rounds,

Of curiosity, what builds died and which survived?
Quote:
so this build is not only a battlefield controller with Dirty Tricks, but also built for high damage.

<Nod> ...Dirty Tricks is Paizo's "Easy" button for getting-up-there martials. (To the OP: note that you likely start an arms-race with your GM in a mid-level home-game with DTs.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And now that you've seen a Dirty Tricks assassin build, try and defend against it.

The Soulthief Vitalist, Dauntless Bard (homebrew archetype), Inquisitor (w/ Vampire Template) all died. The Druid and Bloodrager survived and resurrected them and the Vampire had to go back to her coffin to regenerate.

Silver Crusade

I would just play Ranger or Slayer if your not familir with advanced character building. Slayer will give you a little bit over all higher damage. Range will give you access to cure wands and buff spells. So its more of what do you want the character to do. I will recommend you go for a Str build over Dex. With taking just enough Dex to get double slice. This will allow the character to be more effective right at the start. Preventing having a level or two until you become effective. Other then that specifics depend on what your using to make characters.

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