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Haste will ALWAYS have a beneficial effect, the other spells... who knows.Let's compare Haste to Fireball on one single enemy (I think we can call that the "non-circumstancial use of Fireball").
Fireball does the equivalent of a first and second attack damage according to Citricking's charts.If Haste is cast on a "random" character, it will give it a third attack most of the time. It means that you need 7 rounds of extra third attacks to get to the damage of the Fireball. Considering that Haste does delayed damage, it is straight up worse even if you can use it during 10 rounds.
Haste sometimes gives a second attack. Examples are given above, things like Rage, Sudden Charge, (hasted) Strike are quite common. If we consider an extra second attack every round, you need 3 rounds for Haste to deal as much damage than a one-target Fireball, and because it's delayed damage, we can consider they're equivalent (fights often last a bit more than 3 rounds). But giving a second attack every round is not a "normal" situation for Haste, it's already a circumstancial one. So, even in circumstancial situations, Haste is equivalent to a single-target Fireball.That's what I want to point. Haste is not ALWAYS beneficial. It's mostly bad. Fireball is way stronger in non circumstancial situations.
Haste is a circumstancial spell.
The bolder part is the problem. Haste ISN'T cast on a random character who will only get a strike at maximum MAP out of it. Haste is cast on a PC who is probably also at least level 5, and has more things to do than that. Single target hasye, in particular, is cast on a party member that you know has uses for the extra action.
Haste will ALWAYS have a beneficial effect, the other spells... who knows.Let's compare Haste to Fireball on one single enemy (I think we can call that the "non-circumstancial use of Fireball").
Fireball does the equivalent of a first and second attack damage according to Citricking's charts.If Haste is cast on a "random" character, it will give it a third attack most of the time. It means that you need 7 rounds of extra third attacks to get to the damage of the Fireball. Considering that Haste does delayed damage, it is straight up worse even if you can use it during 10 rounds.
Haste sometimes gives a second attack. Examples are given above, things like Rage, Sudden Charge, (hasted) Strike are quite common. If we consider an extra second attack every round, you need 3 rounds for Haste to deal as much damage than a one-target Fireball, and because it's delayed damage, we can consider they're equivalent (fights often last a bit more than 3 rounds). But giving a second attack every round is not a "normal" situation for Haste, it's already a circumstancial one. So, even in circumstancial situations, Haste is equivalent to a single-target Fireball.That's what I want to point. Haste is not ALWAYS beneficial. It's mostly bad. Fireball is way stronger in non circumstancial situations.
Haste is a circumstancial spell.
The bolded part is the problem. Haste ISN'T cast on a random character who will only get a strike at maximum MAP out of it. Haste is cast on a PC who is probably also at least level 5, and has more things to do than that. Single target haste, in particular, is cast on a party member that you know has uses for the extra action.
That's not a clear win for fireball. It's certainly not a clear win for Haste either (fireball is great vs. groups and the damage is immediate), but it's not bad.
Yep, I get the same calculation, casting Haste on a Flurry Ranger is as good as a single-target Fireball. So, not good at all.
You need many circumstances to make Haste a potent spell. Casting it on the proper character is not enough. You also either need to be so high level that Haste doesn't cost you real resources (and the fight to be an easy one, as you are casting a weak spell to start it), or prebuff rounds, or a very special case making Haste shine. But, on average, it's not worth the trouble for me.
The bolded part is the problem. Haste ISN'T cast on a random character who will only get a strike at maximum MAP out of it. Haste is cast on a PC who is probably also at least level 5, and has more things to do than that. Single target haste, in particular, is cast on a party member that you know has uses for the extra action.
The main issue is: Why a PC would have use for the extra action?
If we except exceptional circumstances, most characters are built with the 3-action system in mind. If you create a character who needs 4-action rounds, you gonna be sad most of the time. So every character is supposed to have a solid 3-action routine and Haste won't help them that much.Even when you think about the Dragon Barbarian, who's kind of the best character to get Haste, he gains a third of efficiency thanks to Haste. The caster loses one round, the Barbarian needs 3 rounds to get it back. So, it's not overwhelming, it's just okish.
Casting Haste on the proper character is not enough. You need more circumstances to make it shine.
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There are useful actions characters will plan to have that can't be part of every round's routine (recall knowledge, intimidate, etc.) These can be squeezed in, if one of the other actions taken is a stride or strike.
There are preparatory actions that would be taken early on, stances and the like, which leave turns that benefit from am extra action.
There are characters built with a plan for a routine of 3 actions, assuming they start in a proper position. These routines become possible on other turns with an extra stride.
There are characters who have a 3 action stationary routine planned, who would still benefit from repositioning to increase the odds of being able to use a reaction ability afterward.
There are characters who build a 3 action plan, and then assemble other, non-routine tools which can become easier to use, or lose some of their opportunity cost, if you have the extra stride or strike.
Really, why would your characters NOT have options to go beyond their 3 action routine, when hasted?
Really, why would your characters NOT have options to go beyond their 3 action routine, when hasted?
They have, of course. But only secondary actions. Second attacks, raise a shield, intimidate at best. Third attacks at worst. Hence my comparison between the damage of a single-target Fireball and second attacks damage.
If Haste allows you to land a no MAP attack or a 2-action spell, then it's a good spell to cast. But if it only allows you to land secondary actions, it's not much better than a single-target Fireball, unless you have other circumstances making it better.
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To be clear, my above analysis was actually a third action attack (albeit, on a Flurry Ranger).
A second attack pretty much universally does much better DPR than my above analysis does. A secondary attack on a Barbarian, for example, has DPR around 9.5. That's double a Fireball vs. one target over the course of three rounds. 95 damage over 10 (and some fights in PF2 even go 10 rounds).
It's only when it only gains the beneficiary a third attack that it's legitimately worse than Fireball. Of course, that's not an unusual situation, but it's worth noting where the breakpoint is.
Yeah, just because characters aren't built for 4 actions doesn't mean they can't use 4 actions. Compare the DPR of a rogue doing Hide, Strike, Strike with one doing Hide, Strike, Hide, Strike and you will see a pretty nice spike from Haste.
Or the Bard who would like to be able to Stride for positioning in between Inspire and casting a spell - not having to spend a round striding and being unable to cast is a pretty big buff there.
Really any character who has a good 3-action routine but is currently out of position benefits massively from haste. It's the difference between a fighter doing Stride, Strike, Raise Shield and Stride, Double Slice, Raise Shield.
Haste isn't always good, but it's definitely not bad.
Or a sneaky monk: he has a Rogue Dedication and uses Avoid Notice, so he starts out treating enemies as flat-footed. You Haste him, and he activates Wolf Stance, strides, and uses Wolf Drag to toss an enemy on the ground and deal sneak attack and backstab damage. When the enemy stands up, he uses Stand Still to make an AoO. Because of your Haste, he was able to get in there and start controlling the battlefield on round one, which he otherwise couldn't do until round two.
Regular Trip+flurry can be a better combo for that scenario since you can potentially get stunning fist to further tank the target's action economy.
But yes, that is a highly effective use of the extra action, allowing a massive debuff on a target in round one. it also lets the same monk use their preferred "full attack combo" of wolfdrag+flurry while also preserving a stride action afterwards. This lets them move onto the next target after they have either killed the first target, or a team mate has arrived to finish it off.
Indeed on a flurry ranger it would be good, but would it also be a good use of a spell slot to use it on a fighter who has Agile Grace, so he could attack 4 times the third and fourth attack of course being at -6 (assuming he doesn't need to move)?
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My party prioritise Haste for the casters, especially the Angelic Sorcerer. Being able to move twice *and* cast is incredibly useful if you're squishy, as well as other options like "move, sustain, 2 action spell", or "1 action heal, move, 2 action heal".
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I personally think Haste is a great ability. Most people mention it is great on martials but I love it on Gish/Casters in general. The free move is great.
It's REALLY hard to find a class or build that can't use a free move of strike a round.
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I think in particular the free move is just really that good. Most people have some kind of special attack that they'd rather use in place of a base Strike, or that they'd use before a base Strike. And then there's MAP. So the Strike is not brilliant.
But the Stride! It allows people to hit and run with 2-action things like Double Slice or a spell around a corner. And it enables 2+1+move routines, like Stride/Double Slice/Raise Shield, or Metamagic+Spell+Move.
Honestly, a level 2 slimmed down version of Haste that allowed only the Stride would still be a really good spell, possibly even too good.
I think there could have reasonably been a level 1 version of Haste that only allowed you to make a step.