Best ways to use Gravity Well in combat

[Atalius]

GRAVITY WELL SPELL 3
EVOCATION
Traditions arcane, occult
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 120 feet; Area 30-foot-radius burst
Saving Throw Reflex

You create a sphere of altered gravity. All creatures and unsecured objects in the area move towards the center, depending on their Reflex saving throws. This follows the rules for forced movement (Pathfinder Core Rulebook 475). If there’s not enough space near the center of the sphere, creatures and objects nearer to the center move first, and others move as far as they can without being blocked, up to the amount set by their saving throw outcomes.

Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature moves 5 feet toward the center.
Failure The creature moves 15 feet toward the center.
Critical Failure The creature moves 30 feet toward the center

Does anyone have any optimal ways to use this spell in combat? It looks like a fun spell, just not sure how useful it is in actual play and whether it deserves a place in a characters repertoire.

[Wheldrake]

Seems to me like this spell ought to pile multiple creatures into the center 5' space, instead of stacking them based on the space they use in combat. It would be far more entertaining.

[SuperBidi]

It's a combo spell for me. Putting enemies in a Wall of Fire or Stinking Cloud. As it's a 3rd level spell, it's less costly to cast a Wall of Fire, and then to put creatures back in it than to cast it twice.

It can also be used to get a creature out of Grapple and AoO situations. If you need some of your guys to move away from the monsters. The issue is that you can't voluntarily fail the save. It would be great to move your Paladin 15 feet when needed.

[Seisho]

place the spell above a chasm and watch your enemies fall down into their demise

[Castilliano]

Near a portal or pit would work well. That leans toward the bad guys making better use of it.

The awkward part about this is it moves creatures toward the center of a sphere, so it can move them upward or downward too. And it wouldn't, unfortunately, move the closest ones into the pit to drop so that more targets could have room to also be moved into the pit. But, by perhaps dragging some upward, there might be room under those.
And which is why a portal might be better or Sphere of Annihilation for that matter.

It could also work with a normal spiked floor, casting it so it lifts people up and drops them down into the spikes. Also useful if you have allies w/ AoOs to go amongst the now prone enemies.
I wouldn't even know how to adjudicate this in a desert with all the sand. All the sand would be sucked into a ball, perhaps with targets inside, and then fall, but who knows the stats for being buried in sand, perhaps at the bottom of a crater caused by the spell (since all the unattended sand in a 30' radius now went upward). Not sure if the burst effect means only the top layer would be struck. That might be a necessary interpretation, since there's also ships & water or lava under the bridge you're crossing. I'm thinking the devs may not have thought this one through unless it's just not meant to effect loose or liquid terrain. Or a field of boulders.

It's actually a pretty powerful spell at later levels where it's really hard to force movement on enormous creatures w/ excellent mobility, yet lots of really hazardous areas you want to push them into.
This might be too strong of battlefield control for its level, at least in precarious environments.

Now I'm imagining an armory or alchemist's lab w/ bad guys gloating until you (effectively) toss everything in the room at them. Perhaps harmlessly at first, but then they all fall in a pile.
The dragon might resist the spell, but its bed of coins would be a huge ball of metal floating above its head for a split second before burying it.
Crazy times. Too crazy?

[masda_gib]

Center it on you Greataxe Fighter/Barbarian with Swipe and Cleave and all that stuff. And let them have fun.

[pomme_verte]

This spell seems pretty good, even in a vacuum (without dragging people toward a hole, fire or whatever).

Moving melee ennemies, even for 5 ft, means they will have to use 1 action to come back in reach.

It can be use as part of a combo with another spellcaster to blast more effectively (a fireball as a 20 ft burst radius, so casting a gravity well before your ally cast a fireball might bring some more ennemies inside fireball radius), or with a previously cast Wall of flame or similar spell.

It's also useful to cover people's retreat and avoid potential AOO.

As a wizard, it will become one of my base spell for a while I think (when you have access to 5th lvl spells and above)

[ChibiNyan]

Be a Cleric and get the Void domain focus spell that is twice as strong as this one!

[Ravingdork]

ChibiNyan wrote:

Be a Cleric and get the Void domain focus spell that is twice as strong as this one!

You can't position it as easily with a range of 5 feet though. So more potent, but far less versatile.

[Appletree]

Off a cliff! Off a cliff!

[Malk_Content]

The great thing about it bring a sphere and being able to lift creatures up is that any falling damage at all also knocks creatures prone making this spell a potentially amazing action waster.

[Ravingdork]

Malk_Content wrote:

The great thing about it bring a sphere and being able to lift creatures up is that any falling damage at all also knocks creatures prone making this spell a potentially amazing action waster.

Oh wow. I hadn't considered that.

[Captain Morgan]

Targeting reflex is also quite nice, as most effects that shove people around target fortitude.

[Rikkan]

Ravingdork wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

The great thing about it bring a sphere and being able to lift creatures up is that any falling damage at all also knocks creatures prone making this spell a potentially amazing action waster.

Oh wow. I hadn't considered that.

Well it would be nice, but sadly it is not able to do that.

Quote:

All creatures and unsecured objects in the area move towards the center, depending on their Reflex saving throws. This follows the rules for forced movement (Pathfinder Core Rulebook 475).

Forced movement wrote:

When an effect forces you to move, or if you start falling, the distance you move is defined by the effect that moved you, not by your Speed. Because you’re not acting to move, this doesn’t trigger reactions that are triggered by movement.

If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.

Since the spell does not push or pull people, you can't push them off cliffs / move them in hazardous terrain, and combo'ing it with say a wall of fire doesn't work.

[Xenocrat]

Cool, I’m immune to falling in changed gravity because I can’t fly, makes sense.

[Henro]

At least there's the line about GMs making the final call, though it is pretty silly. At my table you can absolutely drag people off cliffs with this spell.

[Salamileg]

Henro wrote:

At least there's the line about GMs making the final call, though it is pretty silly. At my table you can absolutely drag people off cliffs with this spell.

Dragging off cliffs is a situation that's always brought up in discussions about RPGs but rarely ever happens. So I am totally in favor of allowing people to have fun with their abilities when it does come up.

[Ravingdork]

Who's doing the dragging? They're falling over the cliffs. :P

[masda_gib]

But the target are pulled. The spell creates a gravity well... that's what gravity does.
If not then what effect pulls people in PF2? Since there isn't even a Pull maneuver.

[Tender Tendrils]

Probably the best use I can think of (that isn't contentious) is to pull enemies together before your ally hits them with a fireball - it conveniently has a wider radius than the fireball, helping to consolidate targets that are 30 feet from the target point to be within the 20 feet needed to hit with fireball. It can also be used off centre to pull enemies who are off to one side into the radius so you can get more targets with a big spell.

You do need to justify it against the other option of just casting fireball in addition to your friend's fireball - the scenario in which this works is if you cast a 3rd level gravity well to consolidate enemies for your friend's 7th level fireball, to bring the two enemies just outside into the 12d6 damage instead of hitting those two enemies with a 3rd level fireball for 6d6, or if you for some reason chose one of the defective classes that cannot cast fireball.

If you don't count spell effects as fitting into the category of "hazardous terrain" (does grease count as a terrain feature? does an aura of fire emanating from a fire elemental?) then a lot more possibilities open up.

Honestly though, I would personally rule that this counts as a pulling effect, which opens up all of the fun options where you can use it to move people into whatever you want. It's fun, it can reasonably be interpreted as rules as written, and this spell has to compete with other 3rd level spells, such as fireball and haste, so I think letting it be used to do some damage is well within the power of a 3rd level spell.

[Alchemic_Genius]

I'd argue that not having a fly speed doesn't mean you can't yeet someone off a cliff or pull them into the air; you can still occupy open air without being able to fly, otherwise jumping wouldn't do anything, likewise, swimming without a swim speed. That rule sounds more like for cases like "you cant drag someone literally into the ground unless they have earth glide" more than "no shoving palatine over the rails and into the reactor shoot".

I would, however, say that holding people in midair or lifting them is beyond the scope and intent of the spell. If someone made a well in midair, I'd rule it that you just get pulled to the closest square to can on the ground. YMMV, of course.

[Atalius]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

I'd argue that not having a fly speed doesn't mean you can't yeet someone off a cliff or pull them into the air; you can still occupy open air without being able to fly, otherwise jumping wouldn't do anything, likewise, swimming without a swim speed. That rule sounds more like for cases like "you cant drag someone literally into the ground unless they have earth glide" more than "no shoving palatine over the rails and into the reactor shoot".

I would, however, say that holding people in midair or lifting them is beyond the scope and intent of the spell. If someone made a well in midair, I'd rule it that you just get pulled to the closest square to can on the ground. YMMV, of course.

Sounds fair for a third level spell

[Ravingdork]

Use clever positioning to create waves that rush up and over the bow of a ship to wash people overboard.

Or simply lift and possibly capsize a small boat.

[Atalius]

A couple important questions here.

1) Would this spell be worth it to use it how Malk_Content suggests (which I personally found very creative) by creating the gravity well in the air thus hoping the enemies fail there save and they land prone and spend two actions getting into the fight?

2) Would I be able to cast Gravity Well over a hole in the ground caused by Expeditious Excavation, and have the enemy fall (if they failed the save) directly in the little pit?

EXPEDITIOUS EXCAVATION SPELL 2
EARTH TRANSMUTATION
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range touch; Area cube of dirt 5 feet across or smaller

You remove loose dirt, dust, gravel, sand, and the like (though not solid stone) up to the size of a 5-foot cube. Any Medium or smaller creature standing atop the earth when the spell is cast must attempt a Reflex save or Acrobatics check.

Success The creature is unaffected and can choose to either descend the pit without damage or move to the nearest available space of its choice.

Failure The creature falls prone in the nearest available space of its choice, or falls into the pit if it prefers.

Critical Failure The creature falls into the pit excavated by the spell and lands prone, taking falling damage as normal.

Heightened (+2) The spell can excavate an additional 5-foot cube of earth. If you excavate all four 5-foot cubes beneath
a Large creature, it must attempt a Reflex save or Acrobatics check, as above.

[Atalius]

Could anyone give their opinion? Greatly appreciated!

[Atalius]

Anybody have a view on this one?

[Kennethray]

Opinions have been stated above by a few people. Only thing I would note is the higher off the ground the spell is the less squares it could effect. Having it at 30 feet would only effect 2 squares straight below it that is ground level. Pulling them into clusters, or to a pc, or to a trap seems to be what it is designed for. As far as pulling up?? I'm not sure. I suppose if that is the case you could also use it to get party members into higher locations with it, dependent on the grab the edge reaction, or even across a pit or something.

[Ravingdork]

It would actually be 4 squares, not 2.

[Atalius]

Gravity Well seems like a spell to have on a scroll just not enough value in it to have it apart of a repertoire. It's situational nature is unfortunate, it could potentially be powerful but only under very favorable conditions.