Elf Step stack with Tiger Stance?


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Elf Step says you can Step 5 feet twice as a single action.

Tiger Stance says "As long as your Speed is at least 20 feet while in Tiger Stance, you can Step 10 feet."

Do these combine so that an elf monk can Step 10 feet twice with a single action under the right conditions?

I'm not sure if it violates the specificity clause or the subordinate as actions clause in the rules, or if it works out fine.


I believe Elf Step is specifically worded that way to prevent synergy with Tiger Style. In the playtest it did not have the "Step 5 feet" language, so this was added on purpose.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Conjecture and speculation. I fear that if it's ruled that these don't work together, and that type of thinking is applied elsewhere, then there will be almost no synergy in P2E to speak of.


Clearly, they don't combine.
And I think it's one of the objectives of P2E designers, to avoid (or I should say strongly control) synergies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's plenty of synergy.

Just not with these two abilities as Elf Step explicitly says "You Step 5ft twice" it does not say "You Step twice".


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Ravingdork wrote:
Conjecture and speculation.

No, just reading the text of the options.

Quote:
I fear that if it's ruled that these don't work together, and that type of thinking is applied elsewhere, then there will be almost no synergy in P2E to speak of.

A bit melodramatic, don't you think? Elf Step is just specifically worded to not stack with things like tiger stance.


I mean, the reason to avoid that synergy is that the elf monk is already the fastest thing on Golarion, so why does it need to be even faster?

Synergy to make the best thing at something even better at that thing is probably not a good thing to have. It's not interesting it's just "pick all of these things to be the best".

In the playtest Elf Step read "you step twice" and people (myself included) observed "hey, this is really powerful with Tiger Stance." So when the book was printed the feat reading "you step 5 feet twice" is probably not an accident.


You can make two 10' steps in one action by combining Tiger Stance with Ki Rush. I suspect that the design team didn't want Elf Step to be overpowered compared to Ki Rush.


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Squiggit wrote:
A bit melodramatic, don't you think?

Sorry, it's just that I've had a lot of extremely cool combos, builds, and maneuvers fall apart because of finagly little wording like this lately.

It's really starting to feel like the developers themselves are standing in the way of fun sometimes.

Squiggit wrote:
Elf Step is just specifically worded to not stack with things like tiger stance.

I'm not as certain. (Wouldn't have asked about it otherwise.) The "5-feet" mention of Elf Step might just be a reference to the normal Step rules, and would thus still be modified by Tiger Stance. I do agree that, that likely isn't the case based on what others have said about the playtest, but I still don't think it's a 100% certainty that they're right either.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
In the playtest Elf Step read "you step twice" and people (myself included) observed "hey, this is really powerful with Tiger Stance." So when the book was printed the feat reading "you step 5 feet twice" is probably not an accident.

Well...thanks a lot! :'(

For all the people who complained of the 1E monk not having much synergy with anything, you'd think this new monk might actually be able to combine some of its cool features.

But whatevs. This is just another option that I guess I'm not gonna' get to use.


There's no reason to specify a distance except specifically to prevent it from being modified.

Contrast with, as Gisher mentioned, Ki Rush, which allows you to do the same thing but isn't written restrictively and can therefore stack with elf step.

Quote:
It's really starting to feel like the developers themselves are standing in the way of fun sometimes.

I won't disagree there are a lot of design choices in 2e that feel more like defensive maneuvers to try to avoid some of the really silly stuff that you could do in 1e rather than things that feel strictly necessary.

Maybe too much emphasis on being a tightly designed wargame and not as much on giving players ways to experiment and express their concepts.

That said I don't think this particular instance is that problematic and if they could freely combine it'd be too much of a no brainer.


Having elf step not work well for monks really isn't that different from "you know all those ancestry feats about proficiency in ancestral weapons- they're kinda useless for fighters, champions, barbarians, rangers, etc." Maybe not the initial one (because it can make advanced weapons count as martial), but absolutely the later ones which grant things like critical specialization and expert proficiency.

Not all of an ancestry's feats are going to work well with every class.

Tiger monks who are looking to move around a lot are encouraged to take Winding Flow at level 10 instead of Elf Step. That way you can step 10' and stride 40' in either order.


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I read Elf Step as its own distinct action, separate from step entirely.

Tiger Stance states that you use the action Step specifically. Elf Step is not Step.

If this wasnt the case, Elf Step wouldn't have it's own action symbol. Even if it didn't my argument would be that it was it's own activity, and therefore wouldn't be usable with Tiger Stance.


Right answer, but wrong reasoning.

Elf Step has its own action symbol because it allows you to step twice with one action.

Similar to say, Twin Takedown, which allows you to perform two Strikes with one action, but you're still Striking.

There'd be no reason to specif Step (or strike) if they weren't intended to be steps or strikes.

Elf Step only doesn't work because it specifies its own specific distance.


Fair dues, went and re-read it and I agree. For whatever reason I was reading Tiger Stance as having some kind of trigger that allowed you to Step, not increasing the distance of your steps. I blame phone posting.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Tiger monks who are looking to move around a lot are encouraged to take Winding Flow at level 10 instead of Elf Step. That way you can step 10' and stride 40' in either order.

And pass up on Wind Jump!? No way.


Ravingdork wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Tiger monks who are looking to move around a lot are encouraged to take Winding Flow at level 10 instead of Elf Step. That way you can step 10' and stride 40' in either order.
And pass up on Wind Jump!? No way.

I usually have a gap feat at Monk 14, so you can fit both in.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Tiger monks who are looking to move around a lot are encouraged to take Winding Flow at level 10 instead of Elf Step. That way you can step 10' and stride 40' in either order.
And pass up on Wind Jump!? No way.
I usually have a gap feat at Monk 14, so you can fit both in.

I plan on taking Stance Savant in that spot at the moment.

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