For me personally, I see it as a good thing, but personal preference is not what I really wanted to discuss.
Are random encounters as we know them a thing of the past? The math for 2nd Edition is so finely tuned, any table of random encounter tables couldn't be tailored to the terrain or area and be expected to work properly. It would instead have to be made in respect to the party's level, whatever that is.
Otherwise, you'd end up with a situation like the party encountering a Level +6 creature or something that not only kills someone in one hit, but it kills the whole party in one hit, out right, with no hope of the party ever winning initiative or spotting the threat in the first place (because it's Perception and Stealth scores would be too high for the party to ever beat).
Do you think we will ever see random encounter tables in 2nd Edition, either in official products, 3rd-party products, or in home games? Or are they just bad game design best left in the past?
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I don't think we will, at least not in the traditional sense. I can't speak for society scenarios or Age of Ashes, but almost all of the encounters of Fall of Plaguestone had some sort of environmental effect. Whether it was placement of enemies at the start of combat allowing them all to utilize their reach, a pool of water an enemy can hide in, or traps that enemies can push the players into. You don't really get this with traditional random encounters.
However, I do think we might see something else. A table of 6-10 or so fully fleshed out encounters. Rather than "1d6+1 boars" or "1d2 owlbears", it might be "you see a merchant's cart being attacked by an owlbear" or "you find a group of 4 orc brutes who are defectors from a nearby tribe". If they give context for the fights it will allow them to more finely tune them to whatever the expected level of the party is.
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We probably need a few more bestiaries to fill in level gaps, but if more random encounters were not "fight X creature" but "solve this problem" with 3 or 4 different potential antagonists listed, it would require 1 more step, but be just as feasible.
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Those sound a lot more awesome!
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In fact, let us know if you miss random encounters! The current game philosophy is that it's better to curate encounters rather than randomly roll them—do you enjoy having wandering monster tables to roll on? Or do you never use them?
The feedback in that thread skewed very much towards "encounter tables are useful for sandbox games and can give nice insight into the sorts of creatures one could encounter in the area, but aren't a good use of page count in APs.
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This reminds me of a PF1 "scary" dungeon crawl module where our group took our sweet time clearing. We'd set up pulleys & lifts for the many animal companions to traverse pits, often break to snack, and rest at will overnight with no worries (mainly due to ample food supplies and I believe a Druid w/ Goodberries to pass around).
Since the campaign was silly, this worked fine though what kind of lameness would this be in any other context?
Monster wants to leave their secure area full of possible advantages & surprises to attack us? Good!
That module would've been served well by having a wandering monster table to startle us out of our casual approach.
Modules & APs need methods/situations which overcome this sort of mindset. There are many, and I usually see them in Paizo's APs (though not so much the modules). It's a designer note to remember.
I believe wandering monsters were Gygax's (et al) easy patch to this problem. Need the feeling of a vile cesspit of evil bubbling with monstrosities? Add more (random, unkeyed) monstrosities. Done.
Note too, that some "wandering encounters" were scary stimuli or neutral entities, not combats, and some early modules did incorporate random monsters from the setting, as in "wandering" & "random" don't necessarily equate with "arbitrary". Patrols are the go-to example of this, though one Planescape module had the final villain as a "wandering monster". When the party has cleared out all the significant areas, she shows up with all the remaining minions, having looked for the PCs beforehand. The final boss encounter can happen most anywhere and if you rest too extensively, it might occur right at your camp!
Rallying the troops in response remains one of my favorites, though that's a difficult mechanic to balance.
Oh, and then there's PF2's lull mechanic. When, where, and how often are 10-minute breaks supposed to occur and what's to prevent them from becoming 20 min., 60 min., or longer? I'd rather avoid the arms race of rest vs. threat level, yet we might be there from launch judging from some responses to the early adventures.
Yet mightn't a solution require going to the "race against time" trope too often?
In some ways PF2 needs the threat/attrition of wandering monsters even more than previous RPGs!
Extra: As for random encounters being way above the PC's level, that's nearly always been a risk. Even lists that centered around a specific CR level would have enough variance where the top critters could kill (especially when you're first entering an area meant to be risky for several more levels). GM adjudication is crucial, as in you might meet the Cloud Giant, but perhaps he's not hungry or sees nothing of value in your equipment so leaves you alone (much to his regret many levels later!)
Then there are hazardous environments like Ravenloft or the Underdark where the party should always feel at risk and the wandering monsters are merely manifestations of a greater enemy: the setting itself. One might extend that to Myth Drannor, the Abyss, some mega-dungeons, etc.
Tl:dr: I think wandering monsters have their uses, but shouldn't be arbitrary. We have 40+ years of variants to draw upon that overcome most of the issues wandering monster lists have had.
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I've made plenty of use of the random encounter tables in the AP (Iron Gods) that I've been running. I'd be sad to see those tables go. It doesn't have to be strictly "random"; a page with "drop-in encounters in this country" would do just as well.
"Drop-In Encounters" would suggest a better approach, I think! Or maybe "Drop-In Events"? And alongside advice of when to do so.
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I don't like random adventures as "roll on this table and see what happens" in most kinds of games. I do like having "encounter seeds" available for sections of the game where I feel like something needs to happen, but that thing doesn't really need to tie into the overarching narrative. Like if the PCs are spending way too long or making much too much noise in a dangerous location, they should attract some kind of attention but it needn't be of the random variety.
Perhaps Paizo will produce and sell a "Deck of Encounter Generation"; similar to Starfinders Many Worlds generator.
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I don’t see a problem with a random encounter table that includes encounters that are probably too difficult, or even likely deadly, unless you have players who absolutely refuse to back down from a fight.
If that’s your players’ style, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but you’ll have to either convince them otherwise or adjust to avoid their ever running into something they can’t beat.
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I don’t see a problem with a random encounter table that includes encounters that are probably too difficult, or even likely deadly, unless you have players who absolutely refuse to back down from a fight.
If that’s your players’ style, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but you’ll have to either convince them otherwise or adjust to avoid their ever running into something they can’t beat.
I think it's good to show off some dangerous monsters that shouldn't (yet) be faced, but you do have to make sure you actually have good mechanics for escape in place:
- Ways for the players to find out that this thing is too dangerous, before it's too late to escape.
- Mechanics for escape that actually give them a good shot at escape.
I don't think the CRB gives you good enough tools for this yet, although the GMG promises some help at least with escapes/chases.
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I think it's good to show off some dangerous monsters that shouldn't (yet) be faced, but you do have to make sure you actually have good mechanics for escape in place:
That’s a fair point. The willingness to back down from a fight is meaningless without the ability.
- Ways for the players to find out that this thing is too dangerous, before it's too late to escape.
- Mechanics for escape that actually give them a good shot at escape.
If I’m “allowing” random encounters that outstrip PC abilities, I’m pretty flexible on both these points because the point is to give the sense that there are things out there that they’re not ready for yet, not to actually have them fight and die. But you’re right that the rules we have right now don’t exactly support this.
I don't think the CRB gives you good enough tools for this yet, although the GMG promises some help at least with escapes/chases.
I’m running about half Society and half my own nonsense, and I’m really feeling the lack of the GMG in connection to the latter.
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I think it's good to show off some dangerous monsters that shouldn't (yet) be faced, but you do have to make sure you actually have good mechanics for escape in place:
That’s a fair point. The willingness to back down from a fight is meaningless without the ability.
- Ways for the players to find out that this thing is too dangerous, before it's too late to escape.
- Mechanics for escape that actually give them a good shot at escape.If I’m “allowing” random encounters that outstrip PC abilities, I’m pretty flexible on both these points because the point is to give the sense that there are things out there that they’re not ready for yet, not to actually have them fight and die. But you’re right that the rules we have right now don’t exactly support this.
I don't think the CRB gives you good enough tools for this yet, although the GMG promises some help at least with escapes/chases.I’m running about half Society and half my own nonsense, and I’m really feeling the lack of the GMG in connection to the latter.
The mechanics of the encounter are well within the GM's control.
Ex. A random monster doesn't need to be hostile.It can be indifferent, a condition in the CRB (not that it needed to be for these purposes), or merely inaccessible, like in the clouds high above or heard stomping in a nearby corridor.
The sole problem (AFAICT) is when players don't know that they aren't meant to/capable of killing everything they encounter. That should be addressed beforehand if you're going to introduce such encounters. Player expectations need to be discussed.
ETA: Actual retreat once engaged has been difficult for most PCs in RPGs, mainly because it requires coordination, but also because most monsters have decent speed compared to an average PC.
A random monster doesn't need to be hostile.
It can be indifferent, a condition in the CRB (not that it needed to be for these purposes), or merely inaccessible, like in the clouds high above or heard stomping in a nearby corridor.
This.
I often include monsters that are way outside a party's current challenge rating. It's a kind of foreshadowing, a way to instill a feeling of danger.
An "encounter" with a powerful monster can be limited to tracks, castoff scales, the site of a recent massacre. Closer encounters can include actual sightings, with viable avenues of escape nearby.
Avoiding the over-the-top encounter, with multiple critters swarming closer, can be an adventure in itself.
I'm guessing the kingmaker conversion is going to have random encounters.
Ooh, I hope someone with access posts them!
The other cool thing about 'random encounter sources' is they can be sorted thematically, and even published separately.
For example, let us not forget about >GM Gems<, produced and written by some of the finest Paizonians.
Oh! I rolled an 82 again ...
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So what I think I might do for when I run PF2 in a home game;
#1 When I assemble a random encounter table, make a second column with "warning signs": a monster has some impact on its environment like scat, territorial markers, corpses strewn about, acid burns etcetera. These should be seen before or at least at the start of the encounter, and give the party some idea of the magnitude of the threat. For monsters that just arrive and didn't have time to affect the environment, come up with something else, like a piece of knight still visibly stuck in its teeth.
#2 Build a chase deck, using the tools in the GMG, and institute a house rule: if all the players want to escape the encounter (and perhaps pay some currency, like a hero point for each character that can't leave the map under their own power), then we switch from regular gridded encounter to escape chase.
The exact details of #2 I'd need to work out in further because sometimes I might want to have "getting to the door" be part of a fight. But in general I'd like to allow the players to shortcut a bit instead of having to figure out the often very complicated logistics of getting everyone running away from enemies with almost the same speed.
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So what I think I might do for when I run PF2 in a home game;
#1 ...
#2 ...
Like this maybe?
Type | Tracks
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1 Vexgit | a. small, broken gear wheels; b. shards of colored glass; c. sticky oil
2 Jinkin | a. several gleaming scales; b. broken wooden drinking cup; c. dark blood clot
3 Redcap | a. cigarette butt; b. broken dagger blade; c. red baseball cap
4 Flumph | a. empty whisky bottle; b. sheets of paper, with adventure concepts; c. cat's feather toy
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So what I think I might do for when I run PF2 in a home game;
#1 ...
#2 ...Like this maybe?
Type | Tracks
----------------------
1 Vexgit | a. small, broken gear wheels; b. shards of colored glass; c. sticky oil
2 Jinkin | a. several gleaming scales; b. broken wooden drinking cup; c. dark blood clot
3 Redcap | a. cigarette butt; b. broken dagger blade; c. red baseball cap
4 Flumph | a. empty whisky bottle; b. sheets of paper, with adventure concepts; c. cat's feather toy
I like your a/b/c prompts!
The a/b/c prompts for the Flumph are actually Daigle signs.
I was wondering if anyone would "Read the Tracks", but maybe only Rangers can do that after all.
I remember rolling six shocker lizards on an encounter table for level one characters once...
Obviously I didn't throw them at the party, but any sort of random encounter/event table in PF2 should probably be short, and by level/area if included in an AP, not for the whole book.
My group meets too infrequently and our gaming time is too precious to spend on random encounters. In fact, I'd cut down most APs to just "the most significant" encounters if I could get away with it.
Ever since the battle grid and tactical combat became the standard in fantasy RPGs (for me it began during 3rd edition D&D), encounters have gone far too slow to have random ones.
Quick combat, to me, is a very important learned skill.
I try to set a good example as GM; move, move, move!It's also why I like starting at 1st level, so players know their PCs' abilities well, as well as that of their teammates.
Starting at higher levels, there's little you can do with all those new spells, combos, items, etc. But in an AP, hopefully the party's a honed commando team by the end (albeit one with lots of quirks and character, right?).
Some APs had a few detailed encounters written up beneath the random encounter tables, giving an NPC or a particular squad of monsters or specific monster that was stirring up trouble in the region and could be thrown in somewhere. I think replacing the random encounter table and percentage spawn rates with a brief disclaimer about how to drop them into a campaign to spice up travel/exploration/many-days dungeons would be pretty great. Give a suggested threat for the encounter and a brief mention of how to increase/decrease the difficulty (add/subtract mooks, wound the creature, use variations on the monster) and leave randomness for the GM to decide. Could probably put in up to 6 depending on how tightly they were crammed in.
Are random encounters as we know them a thing of the past?I stopped using them before 3e.
-Skeld
Same. Had a brief experience with a 5e gm who decided to use them "for fun" and rolled 11 wolves against a lv2 party without even thinking it might be a problem.
You can't do truly random encounters. There always has to be some sort of adjudication / prep... and in the best cases, that translates into "only run the encounters that are meaningful, interesting, and work".
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Are random encounters as we know them a thing of the past?
NO.
Random tables in the hands of a skilled and creative DM, capable of riffing a story, are very helpful.
For me, when I run a game, if I don't roll on the random tables explicity, I always read through them. I read the table(s) to grasp the range of entities/things the author imagined for the encounter and is communicating to us by creating the random table. And I then try to at least, in my story telling, sprinkle in the "themes" learned from reading the random tables.
Random tables are a quick way for an author to add scope to an encounter by illustrating some variance for how it was imagined the encounter would play out.
Also, if you're mean (I mean a good DM) and it turns out things went too nicely for the group, we can always say, "oh wait, then this happens ..." and use a random table roll to quickly add some more adventure thematically inline with the author's intention.
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But if you were a skilled GM, and rolled something that either made no sense or was too much for the players to face (or too little to add any meaning, and just burn time), would you not alter it?
If that is a premise, the encounter isn’t ever really random. And if it’s not random, it might as well be scheduled for best effect.
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I think "moderated randomness" can be a useful tool for pushing yourself to break out of habits. If you have a standard recipe for building encounters, rolling some odd configuration on a random table can help you break that pattern once in a while.
But I say "moderated" because a lot of random tables are far too random. PF1 City of Golden Death for example has "1d6 wraiths" as a random encounter for a level 5 party. One or two wraiths would be tricky already. Having such a big spread between 1 or 6 makes no sense.
I mostly GM through roll 20, meaning that it is relatively easy for me to have a couple of encounters set up in advance and jump to them quickly if I need to. Because of this, I find it easier to prepare the random encounters in advance, and then choose the one appropriate to the situation when called for (or roll to randomize between 2 or 3 that feel appropriate), but I do like to roll for whether those encounters happen, rather than just secretly decide they are going to happen every X hour/etc.
Sometimes it feels nice as a gm to be able to show the players that their decisions to rest, or take extra time to explore are not being punitively denied, but have limitations that beyond anyone’s ability to predict or control.
I also try to make sure that many of those encounters are not expected to be combat encounters, or at least don’t have to be. If I have 6 wraiths as a possible encounter for my 5th level party, it is probably a sighting of them at a distance, doing something despicably evil, and then hold on to those 6 wraiths to throw at them in smaller groups later in the campaign, to give the campaign consistency.
So are these random or prepared adventures? My answer is yes to both, because I am comfortable preparing more than I use and then adjusting the campaign after each encounter if necessary, but I could see having them prepped in order and just pretending like they are random working just as well, as long as they are not so site specific that I can’t use them if my party goes a different direction.
I'm running a Kingmaker (granted in original P1) AP at the moment. The original had random encounter tables per 'terrain' listed. What I decided to do was to roll 5 times for each table. and got 5 random encounters in order to get a list of encounters with certain creatures. I then built a quick sheet I printed off with the relevant stat block and quantity of creatures, or description. [but also had I think doubles netted an encounter from a different encounter table from a different source that had 10 encounters in it that I felt fit in quite well as options]
So randomly I'd roll to see if a random encounter happened. If they did happen, I'd pull the first encounter remaining from the little pre-list I had made up.
That way, when-if I ran out of encounters for a terrain, I would go ahead and roll up some more and prep them. Otherwise, I have an idea of what things might pop up.
I felt like this was better than complete on-the-fly encounter creation, since we have one and a half hour blocks generally to play with, I wanted to minimize time pulling together stat blocks to efficiently handle a random encounter.
This way you could have an encounter due to having arrived at a 'location', or could be due to random/wandering monster, or could finally instead be due to some other story arc reasons. [like you attacked here, so the next day, they retaliate having followed you] I have liked this format for me, finding it effective.
I think I called my quick list of encounters and terrains an Encounter Menu. In fact I think I had 2 encounters that seemed pretty much the same, one rolled for plains and the other for Forest, so I had the one reference the other. With the idea that once one was 'used' it, I would consider it used in both terrains.
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I’m running a sandbox hexcrawl, and I make heavy use of wandering monster and random encounter tables. For wilderness exploration, random encounter tables are content generators (I wrote a ton about what I do here). In dungeons, I use them along with adversary rosters to make my dungeons more dynamic.
I think a key to using wandering monster tables effectively is not just to have a fight as soon as you roll a random monster. Use it to change the dungeon to reflect that monster’s presence. There have been a couple of posts mentioning things with high numbers of monsters (elven wolves, six shocker lizards, etc). I’d look at that and decide that part of the dungeon had come to be inhabited by them, and having to find a way around or through them would become part of the gameplay of exploring the dungeon. Normally, though, I don’t roll a quantity and decide something that makes sense for what’s been happening at the table.
For example, my PCs were exploring an enormous dungeon (based on this map from Dyson’s Dodecahedron). They came around to the southwestern side with the door. I described it to them, and they started trying to bash their way through it, and then they set it on fire. Okay…. While they are taking their exploration turns, I was rolling for wandering monsters. When I did succeed, I rolled giant gecko on my table, and described to them how their activities were drawing the attention of the local gecko population. I also roll for disposition, so it wasn’t hostile, but the monk decided to wrestle it anyway.