
Nikkok |
Greetings, guys.
Me and my friends have just started our first Pathfinder campaign. I've decided to build a small, dinosaur mounted warrior with some nature magic abilities.
So I chose the Gnome race and the Hunter class. Took Velociraptor as my AC, he will become mountable at level 7. I plan to give him Int 3, so we wouldn't have to worry about tricks and training much.
The plan is to use Dex-based build, utilizing Weapon Finesse, to avoid Str penalty of the small race. We play with 15-point buy, so the final stats are (race mods included):
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 10
Wiz 16
Cha 9
General playing strategy is to utilise shared teamwork feats to boost hit chance and damage. Planned feats:
Lvl
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Outflank (hunter bonus)
3 Dirty Fighting, Pack Flanking (hunter bonus)
4 -
5 Improved Trip
6 Paired Opportunists (hunter bonus)
7 Precise Strike or Combat Reflexes (I don't know yet, what will I need more, additional damage or more AoOs to utilize Outflank)
8 -
9 Greater Trip and some bonus Teamwork feat
...
Finesse allows to use Dex modifier on trip attempts, so we end up with + 9(+Dex+BAB) on trip attempts after charge (+4 Outflank, +4 Trip feats, +2 charge, -1 size). And after opponent falls prone, he recieves 2 AoOs and five attacks frome the raptor's Pounce, all at +10 bonus (+4 Outflank, +4 prone, +2 charge).
I also consider using Scimitar with Dervish Dance in this build - one feat will give me a nice boost to damage and a lot more crits for Outflank's AoOs.
Now a few questions:
What are some nice additional feats to consider? Maybe another useful combat ones to work with pouncing mount, instead of tripping? Or some feats, that give me or my mount an AoO, to get another one from Paired Opportunists?
Are there useful Mounted Combat feats for such build? I don't think, that such character would be an effective lance charger. And I read, that I can't Pounce with my mount and Ride by Attack at the same time, thats why I chose tripping.
What are some useful spells for this build? I consider different buffs, and temporary Improved Spell Sharing, to buff before combat, and then swap the feat to fighting one.
Would really love to hear your opinions on this concept, as I have mostly theoretical experience and don't really know yet, how all of this stuff would work in real fight.

Scott Wilhelm |
Look at that Mammoth Rider Prestige Class.
I really like the Megafauna Arsinotherium as a Mount. I also really like Deinonychous, Mega Raptor, and Allosaurus.
Something I'd really like to try doing is play a Druidzilla character then take the Leadership Feat, make your Cohort some kind of charging lancer and Mongolian archer character. You will be an Animal with a Human Companion!
Since you are thinking about a Size Small character, I'll mention another thing I've been wanting to try. Be an Eldritch Guardian Fighter and get a Familiar. Those Familiars automatically know all the Combat Feats you know including a lot of those lovely Teamwork Feats. Make your Familiar a Mauler Familiar that grows to Size Medium when in combat. Maybe some kind of Bat or Dragonfly that you can ride, and now you have a Flying mount!

Nikkok |
Well, thats a really cool idea for another character, but now I'll have to stick with Hunter. The problem is, we play in Russia and we have on hands only Core Book translated. I've pulled the Hunter class from the wiki, as well as some feats, but I don't think, that my GM will approve so much material from other books in our first game. We need to get more familiar with the basic concept first.
So I try to avoid class archetypes, AC archetypes, traits and lots of other detalizations.

LordKailas |

Hunter is a great option for what you have in mind. I am curious what method you're planning on using to increase it's int to 3. Halflings and humans can do this easily I'm not aware of any built in options for gnomes.
That being said, even with an int of 3 you still have to rely on tricks to get your AC to do what you want. So, you'll still need to define it's tricks. Doing the General purpose combat training option along with the attack trick (so that it has it twice, and thus can attack any type of creature) and flanking trick, should allow your animal companion to do most things you'll want it to be able to do.
This means that you'll want to invest in handle animal until you're able to easily make the dc 25 check to "push" an animal. The Link trait that your AC gets by default gives you a +4 and lets you do this as a move action. This is important because passing the check lets your AC perform a trick it doesn't know. This means once you can make the DC 25 check, for a move action your AC knows ALL tricks. Unfortunately, since this is a charisma based skill having a 9 there makes it more of an uphill battle than normal. But with a training harness and 1 rank in the skill even with a -1 from charisma, you're looking at a +9 at 1st level meaning you're only 6 points away from getting 25 when you take 10 (sure this only works out of combat but that's why you teach it all of the tricks you want it to be able to do in combat)
Your feats all look good. the only one that stands out to me that you might want is Snapping flank. Of course you'll need some way to get a bite attack for yourself in order to meet the pre-reqs. Broken Wing Gambit also works well with paired opportunists. Have both you and your AC activate the feat, then if the enemy attacks either one of you, you both get an AoO on the enemy. If the enemy attacks both of you then you both get 2 AoO against the enemy.
As for feats for your raptor, you might consider the following feat progression for it.
Power Attack
Dirty Fighting
Demonic Style
Imp. Bull Rush
Forceful Charge
Demonic Momentum
Improved Forceful Charge
It's worth noting that because it has dirty fighting and it will be flanking an enemy, It can give up it's flanking bonus to not provoke an AoO off of the free trip that it gets from Improved Forceful Charge.

Nikkok |
I am curious what method you're planning on using to increase it's int to 3.
Animal companion gets to increase one of its ability scores a few times, if I read this article correctly: Animal Companion
That being said, even with an int of 3 you still have to rely on tricks to get your AC to do what you want.
How many tricks does AC get with Int 3? Because "Handle animal" skill stops descripton at Int 2 (6 tricks) and considers creature with higher Int intelligent enough to understand speech. It's important for me, because I want to use Skirmisher tricks, to which Hunter gets access, and I need to know, how many of them I can choose.
The main problem with Snapping Flank I would call a +9 BAB requirement. Hunter will get there very late.
Broken Wing Gambit is a really cool one, I think I'll take it on later levels, for opponents that I won't be able to trip.
As for the raptor feats, the charge ones are a good option, thank you. But I couldn't take Power Attack first, because lvl 1 Velociraptor has only 11 Str. I'll get back to it later. I started with Light Armour Proficiency and think about some more defensive feats also.

LordKailas |

Animal companion gets to increase one of its ability scores a few times, if I read this article correctly: Animal Companion
Yep, you are correct. The way it read I thought maybe you were doing something to raise to to 3 sooner than the 1st ability increase.
How many tricks does AC get with Int 3? Because "Handle animal" skill stops descripton at Int 2 (6 tricks) and considers creature with higher Int intelligent enough to understand speech. It's important for me, because I want to use Skirmisher tricks, to which Hunter gets access, and I need to know, how many of them I can choose.
The closest I could find to an offical answer to this was this blog post. This article indicates that an animal companion knows 3 tricks per point of intelligence in addition to the bonus tricks it gets as part of its normal progression. Your DM of course has the final say.
This seems like a fair way to handle things since this blog post talks about how you still have to make handle animal checks on animal companions that have an int of 3 or higher and unlike the previous one it is not directed at just pathfinder society play.
But I couldn't take Power Attack first, because lvl 1 Velociraptor has only 11 Str. I'll get back to it later. I started with Light Armour Proficiency and think about some more defensive feats also.
Certainly you may need to wait to take certain feats. If your DM is ok with it you may be able to retrain your animal companion or even trade it out for a different velociraptor, once you're higher level and its stats would allow it to qualify for the feats normally.

Nikkok |
What do you think about Vicious Stomp on the AC? As I understand, natural attacks are treated as an unarmed strike with lethal damage, so he should get another AoO when the enemy falls and it will also grant me another AoO through Paired Opportunists.
Also, a little question about the numbers in the rules. Our Core Rule Book says, that spells like Bull's Strength grant +6 to certain ability score. However, d20pfsrd says, that they grant +4. I assume, there were some kind of patch since the translation of our book. Where can I read about it?

LordKailas |

Vicious Stomp isn't a terrible choice on an AC but it would need the feat Feral Combat Training in order to use it's natural attack.
natural attacks are handled differently from manufactured weapons and while it seems strange, as far as the rules are concerned an unarmed strike is a manufactured weapon.
If a creature has multiple natural weapons it is allowed to make 1 attack with each of those weapons regardless of the creature's base attack bonus. Each attack is made at the creature's full attack bonus and (if they are all primary attacks) it's full strength bonus.
It is possible to combine natural attacks with manufactured weapons. However, this causes all of the natural attacks to be made at a -5 penalty and they only get 1/2 the creature's strength bonus even if they were all primary attacks. Also, you can't use the same limb to make both a natural attack and an attack with a manufactured weapon. So, if say a demon decided to hit an enemy with a sword it could not also attack that enemy with its claw that is holding said sword.
As for bull's strength I don't know. I don't have my physical copy with me so I don't know if what you're seeing the the result of a change or a printing error. Archives of Nethys is an official source and they try to keep the site up to date with any changes that have been made. So, you should be fine going with whatever is stated there. D20 similarly tries to keep everything up to date but since they are not an official source its best to use Nethys to confirm things. I use both because I find D20s layout and search functions easier to use.
This is the entry for bull's strength on Nethys which seems to say the same thing D20 says.
If you want to check erratas you can go to the store page on the site here for the book in question and scroll down, there will be links to all the errata that have happened for that book.
For example, this is the page for the core rule book and they have a free downloadable file for each of the 6 printing runs that have happened.

Scott Wilhelm |
Well, thats a really cool idea for another character, but now I'll have to stick with Hunter. The problem is, we play in Russia and we have on hands only Core Book translated. I've pulled the Hunter class from the wiki, as well as some feats, but I don't think, that my GM will approve so much material from other books in our first game. We need to get more familiar with the basic concept first.
So I try to avoid class archetypes, AC archetypes, traits and lots of other detalizations.
Actually, one of my suggestions was mostly a Core Rulebook suggestion: a Druidzilla Character, then take the Leadership Feat. "Druidzilla" is a Druid (Core Rulebook) character that relies mostly on Wildshape for melee. The Leadership Feat is also Core Rulebook. It gives you a loyal NPC with Player Character levels and followers. You probably can't get a more powerful Mount than one that is actually a PC.
Granted, my preferred way to build a Druidzilla is with levels in Warpriest to substitute the normal Natural Attack Damage with Sacred Weapon Damage, when then scales up with Size (Here, in America, we always say "Supersize me!" That's why we're all fat!). But Warpriest comes from the same rulebook as Hunter: the Advanced Class Guide. They are both Hybrid Classes. If your GM allows Hunter, then he should allow Warpriest.

Slim Jim |
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...I chose the Gnome race and the Hunter class. Took Velociraptor as my AC, he will become mountable at level 7. ...The plan is to use Dex-based build, utilizing Weapon Finesse, to avoid Str penalty of the small race. We play with 15-point buy, so the final stats are (race mods included):
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 10
Wiz 16
Cha 9
Problem #1: This is a "gimp" build that dumps the gnome race's preferential stats (Con and Cha) and spends points on its tanked one (Str). Never do this is point-buy (or ever, really), as it just butchers your precious starting points like crazy. You don't need a wisdom of 16 for a Hunter (you're not casting saving-throw magic); they don't even need higher than a 12 in that stat prior to 7th level (when a mere +2 wisdom headband will do the job all the way until 13th-level. Yes: you'll lose on a few bonus spells -- but what's more important, having that single extra spell, or having an extra 5 or 7 build-points at character-creation? ...If you're getting only fifteen, every one is very precious.
By layering racial bonuses over the stats we actually want rather than wearing our pants bassackwards, we can achieve builds like this....
STR- 8
DEX+ 17
CON: 14 ...halfling paladin/uRogue multiclass
INT: 10
WIS: 7
CHA+ 17
STR: 15
DEX: 10 or 12
CON+ 16 ...dwarf warpriest in plate armor
INT: 12 or 10
WIS+ 16
CHA- 5
STR: 7
DEX+ 16
CON- 12 ...elf wizard (17,14,14,10,7,7 15pt array)
INT+ 19
WIS: 10
CHA: 7
STR+ 16
DEX: 12 or 14
CON: 15 ...barbarian who wants Int13 (for CE) and Con15 (for Raging Vitality).
INT: 13
WIS: 14 or 12 (15,14,13,12,12,7 15pt array)
CHA: 7
~ ~ ~
Problem #2: Dirty Fighting doesn't work for waiving Pack Flanking's Combat Expertise requirement, because Pack Flanking isn't a Style maneuver-chain feat. (Sad faces all around.)
Problem #3: You're small and weak. You ain't gonna trip *crap*.
Look at that Mammoth Rider Prestige Class. I really like the Megafauna Arsinotherium as a Mount. I also really like Deinonychous, Mega Raptor, and Allosaurus.
This, exactly. Scott is not steering you wrong here, because Hunters, despite their first-glance appearance, do not shine brightest as a straight-class caster/critter combo, but rather, are best envisioned as a beast-buffing martial. (Scott and I had a lot of fun seeing how much absurd, insane, over-the-top, table-shattering damage we could rack up in the PFS DPR Olympics thread. Search the PF1 forum for "Slim Jim Ping Pong" to see the build. (It was a nitrous-fueled funnycar on racing-slicks with a teeny-tiny will-save completely unsuitable for actual play, and considerable detuning would be necessary to play it viably. But you pull all sorts of ideas out of it.)
Velociraptors get a ridiculous number of attacks, but they're weak, and have to waste a feat on Weapon Finesse. Since they have multiple attack forms, they cannot apply 1.5x damage to their primary attack, even if they're only making one attack in a round. On the bright side, their Con score is nice, and their medium barding will be cheaper than a large mount's. Saddles are more expensive, however, because they're an exotic mount rather than a typical quadruped herbivore.
~ ~ ~
Let's contemplate a half-orc for our Hunter using the 15pt "barbarian" chassis listed above:
STR+ 14 (raise 12th + Manual)
DEX: 14
CON: 15 (raise 4th, or don't)
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 7 (15,14,14,12,10,7 15pt array)
Yes: It is possible to enjoy *four* stats of 14 or higher with a measly 15pt-buy. You don't need to slam all the points into one stat at creation, when the vast majority of your bonuses will be generated from class features, levels, and gear. So spread those initial points around and show your important ability scores the love they deserve.
Racial traits (none)
...Sacred Tattoo is nice, but this smashmouth is going to keep Orc Ferocity.
Character Traits (two): Beast Rider, Berserker of the Society
01 Barbarian1 [Dreadnought archetype], Extra Rage (15 rounds/day)
...this archetype provides a half-strength rage, but allows concentration, spellcasting, and mental skill use, and doesn't trash armor-class like normal rage.
02 Hunter1 [Primal Companion archetype]
...this archetype choice lets us apply Evolutions to our critter, with evos Reach and Improved Damage being the two we'll routinely apply as swift-actions at the outbreak of combat.
...we will eventually pick an animal with a Gore attack. Why? Because Tusk Blades are ten flavors of awesome. But at low-level, we'll take a regular horse, because it's already big enough to ride, grants a +1 elevation bonus versus most targets, gear is ultra-cheap, and three attacks is plenty.)
At 3rd-level, we face a choice: Do we go straight Hunter from here, or do we build a Panzer tank multiclass? Being straight Hunter is easy (and you don't need the barbarian level either, although it doesn't hurt as much as you would think compared to, say, a wizard dropping a casting level), and this post would end here if that is the choice -- so let's explore the other way:
03 Fighter1 [Drill Sergeant][Mounted Combat], Boon Companion
...this archetype will grant three desired feats over two levels
...put general feats in general feats slots FTW
04 Drill Sergeant2 [Combat Reflexes][Tactician:Amplified Rage], CON>16
05 Dreadnought2 [rage power:Ferocious Beast], Raging Vitality
--We are now done with the Panzer tank martial chassis consisting of four levels granting a host of desired abilities (rage sharing, heavy armor proficiency, tucking away beefy hitpoints and combat feats early, etc). We will not take more than four dip-levels out due to the limitations of Boon Companion.
06 Hunter2 [Outflank]
07 Hunter3 [Hunter's Tactics][Teamwork:Blades Above and Below], Indomitable Mount
The horse is now put out to pasture, to be replaced with a snarling, two-horned, prehistoric rhino (the Arsinoitherium) of incredibly foul disposition, and we're going to share Str+6 and Con+6 rages with it (and it will also take Raging Vitality for stupid hitpoints). We do not want this feisty animal to fail will saves, so we tuck another general feat into a general feat slot -- and substitute our Ride score for its will-save once per round.
The feat Blades Above and Below is basically identical to Pack Flanking, but with a BAB requirement and size requirements in lieu of PF's loathed tax-feat. At 10th, it'll deploy against any opponent that is medium, large (if we a drink a potion), or huge (because that'll be the size of our mount).
08 Hunter4 [empathic link]
09 Hunter5 [woodland stride], Extra Rage (22 rounds/day)
...our (the rider's) job is to keep the rage going, because it's being splitting fifty-fifty with the mount.
10 Mammoth Rider [Gigantic Steed]
11 Hunter6 [Teamwork:Paired Opportunists], Extra Rage (28 rounds/day)
12+ Mammoth Rider2+ [Iron Will]
Feats deliberately not chosen: Power Attack (maybe we'll grab it at 13th), Improved Trip (this build has a sickening attack-bonus; we don't need things on the ground), Greater [Maneuver XYZ] (because we already have several ways to generate AoOs such as Outflank, Paired Opportunists, Combat Reflexes, Fortuitous weaponry, and our critter can take things like Greater Bull Rush, etc)
Spellcasting: by 12th, you should be becoming affluent enough to just buy a pile of wands of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd-level Hunter spells of interest (e.g., Blood Rage, etc).
Gear (at 12th): +1/Furious/Fortuitous fauchard, opalescent white pyramid ioun (cracked:fauchard), Celestial Plate (with Hosteling), +1/Keen/Fortuitous tuskblades (for mount), Furious Amulet of Might Fists (for mount), wand of Reduce Animal (we will often need to make our Huge animal small enough to fit in our Hosteling armor to smuggle it past chokepoints), haversack full of potions of Enlarge Person

Slim Jim |
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Brief preface: Hunter is a great class for building an uber rider/mount tag-team, but there is a non-negligible cost: You lose BAB, and it's a rare caster class with a garbage will-save. Also, spells per day are junk -- with an 18 wisdom, you'll only be getting thirteen spells at 10th level. You wanna buy a bucket of Pearls of Power? Go ahead. Or, you can play a straight druid and be a *real* caster.Or you can raid Hunter for its groovy, front-loaded martial-inclined goodies, then jump ship after 3rd, and do most of your casting off wands -- because guess what: you'd be doing that most of the time as a Hunter anyway.
So I chose the Gnome race and the Hunter class. Took Velociraptor as my AC, he will become mountable at level 7. I plan to give him Int 3, so we wouldn't have to worry about tricks and training much. The plan is to use Dex-based build, utilizing Weapon Finesse, to avoid Str penalty of the small race. We play with 15-point buy, so
Here's a finesse build closer to the OP concept:
STR- 6
DEX++ 19* (15,15,14,12,8,7 15pt array)
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 15 (raise 8th)
CHA- 5
(*goblin, because you totally misspelled goblin as gnome, and they don't get +4 to dex)
traits: Adopted(human:Tempestuous Combatant), Magical Knack (Hunter)
01 Fighter1 [Drill Sergeant][Weapon Finesse], Piranha Strike
...buy a yak for 24gp, and sit on it shooting things with a crossbow.
02 Hunter1 [Primal Companion]
...still the best mount/rider tag-team archetype. Buff the mount, and if your GM is ever foolish enough to kill it, then those swift-implemented evolutions can go into you instead! Fun times to be had while riding a temp critter without the least shred of concern for druid enviroweenie sensibilities when it comes to the proper care and feeding of abusable minions.
03 Hunter2 [Outflank], Mounted Combat
04 Hunter3 [Paired Opportunists], DEX>20
05 Drill Sergeant2 [Indomitable Mount], Boon Companion
...and you're now riding your velociraptor instead of whatever
Mount's feat selected at 5th: Broken Wing Gambit. (The dino teases easier attacks from the opponent, that when taken triggers your Mounted Combat defense and triggers your attack of opportunity, which then triggers your mount's Paired Opportunists that it has because you're sharing the feat with it, which then triggers your Paired Opportunists.)
06 (whatever you want)
Gear: +1/Agile kukri, Scabbard of Vigor, critter-buffing wands

Slim Jim |

Ah, Slim Jim, I had forgotten that it was you that clued me in on the Arsinotherium in the DPR Summer Olympics! mea culpa.Those things are diesel locomotives covered in shag-carpet.
03 Hunter2 [Outflank], Mounted Combat
04 Hunter3 [Paired Opportunists], DEX>20
05 Drill Sergeant2 [Indomitable Mount], Boon Companion
...and you're now riding your velociraptor instead of whatever...
* I forgot Drill Sergeant2's free Teamwork feat at 5th, so enjoy perusing the list. (Shake It Off is a good defensive choice, as it'll grant a +1 untyped bonus to all saves for both you and your companion.)
* Precise Shot (rather than Outflank) is a much better alternative to Outflank in Hunter2's Precise Companion freebie slot when taken by a highly dextrous character who won't eventually be going for Pack Flanking (due to its onerous requirements). Getting Precise Shot without prerequisites is very well worth it. (Grab an opalescent white pyramid ioun stone for Heavy Repeating Crossbow in your goblin size.)

Ryan Freire |

I've seen Hunter being suggested, but this prompted me something: can you and your mount use Teamwork feats, if you are mounted?
Yup, hunter gets...i think its called pack flanking as well, which means as long as you and your AC are adjacent to the target you count as flanking.
Hunter (and its archetype analogues like sacred huntsmaster) is probably the strongest mount class.
edit: A guide to bein a hunter

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@OP: Nifty! You asked about mounted builds that use Paired Opportunists. Here's an approach that maximizes Paired Opportunists. Even works for a PC with awful combat stats, so long as that PC threatens with a reach weapon. In short: Paired Opportunists works best with reach.
The idea is for both rider and mount to have reach and use it. This gets mount +4 on all attacks (including trips) and rider +5 on all attacks (including trips). This creates a passive hard-to-crack defensive barrier around rider-and-mount. It's an extremely effective combination that keeps you and nearby squishy allies a lot safer than does mere Armor Class.

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have reach and use it. This gets mount +4 on all attacks (including trips) and rider +5 on all attacks (including trips). This creates a passive hard-to-crack defensive barrier around rider-and-mount. It's an extremely effective combination that keeps you and nearby squishy allies a lot safer than does mere Armor Class.
The idea is for both rider and mount to have reach and use it. This gets mount +4 on all attacks (including trips) and rider +5 on all attacks (including trips). This creates a passive hard-to-crack defensive barrier around rider-and-mount. It's an extremely effective combination that keeps you and nearby squishy allies a lot safer than does mere Armor Class.
It is not above having a decent AC, at best at the same level. There's also the risk of being a less attractive target, and the less resilient spellcaster is being targeted instead.
It works fine if there's means to force the opponent to pay attention to the pair, not if they can just not care about it. Proactive game at later levels is better than the waiting reach game, or more plainly put, going to the opponent instead of hoping they come.

Slim Jim |

@OP: Nifty! You asked about mounted builds that use Paired Opportunists. Here's an approach that maximizes Paired Opportunists. Even works for a PC with awful combat stats, so long as that PC threatens with a reach weapon. In short: Paired Opportunists works best with reach.
It works best when both rider and mount have reach -- this is why Mammoth Rider is so destructive when you're Enlarged with a 20' polearm while astride a huge beast also with 20' reach (either innately, or via Hunter[Primal Companion]'s evolutions).