Nikkok's page

Did a bit more detective work and the main UK trade supplier has told me that they're processing the stock now with the aim that it will be at retailers next week.
Which is more info than I started with :D

Our local FLGS still hasn't got their stock and Amazon UK is projecting an October 1st delivery date.
We would have ordered from Paizo direct but those international shipping costs are ASTRONOMICAL!

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Zesty Mordant wrote:

Okay, I’d like some clarification on this Capstone idea. I’m going to present 4 scenarios as I understand them and hopefully Ryan will respond and let me/us know which are correct.

All your scenarios are correct. All of them are multiclassed characters.

Okay I officially rage quit and flip the table with that answer. I declare PFO DOA if it ever gets finished.

Ok, your decision and all that but, before you slam the door. Exactly what answer where you expecting?

Each of your scenarios described characters with multiple classes, so each of them is a multiclass?

What would you have considered to have been the multi class option then?

My dad is absolutely convinced, and I'm not convinced he's wrong, that 3 Level 5's should be equivalent to 1 Level 15.

Well the game its "inspired" by doesn't follow that numeric comparison.

Can they (or should they) leverage that legacy into the MMO.. not really sure. It has merit but it also has flaws.

They already have a "potential" framework for determining appropriate player level comparison.

CR's

Assume the expected "party" size is going to be 4-5 (as it is in the P&P game), obviously larger groups WILL occur (it is an MMO after all) well an "on-level" encounter for that group is going to be predictable based on the same figures.

If we take the chart from the PFRPG that lets you extrapolate out numbers of opponents and increased CR's..

Table 12–3: CR Equivalencies
Number of Creatures Equal to…
1 Creature CR
2 Creatures CR +2
3 Creatures CR +3
4 Creatures CR +4
6 Creatures CR +5
8 Creatures CR +6
12 Creatures CR +7
16 Creatures CR +8

So "possibly" a single CR 20 character would be comparable to 16 CR 12 characters.

It looks a bit inflated numbers wise but in no way the multiple dozens that other games come out with. Also this is an example where the 16 "can" take the 1

Are they (the devs) likely to take these values as gospel.. Hell No!
Is it likely that while making PFO the game based on PFRPG they are going to take some inspiration from source and run with it.. Yeah..

Agree, no adonis like character figures with the underlying stats of an asthmatic bullywug!

Strength = Muscley / Scrawny
Constitution = erm.. healthy / unhealthy looking :D
Dexterity = Lithe / Clumsy

Of course the non-physcial stats would be harder to represent..
Different RP emotes would be cool though.
Someone with a higher charisma gets nicer social options.
Someone with a high Intelligence gets a series of academic responses (Shaber nods in understanding at the Elf)

Well the town noticeboard is certainly a stalwart element of MANY fantasy environments. So I can see no reason (other than technical ones) for them not to implement such.
It is certainly always a better start to an adventure than having everyone meet in a tavern :D

"The note pinned to the weathered trunk by a single bent and rusty nail looks to have been there for quite some time.

BRAVE ADVENTURERS NEEDED FOR A DARING QUEST.
REWARDS WILL BE COMMENSURATE TO THE RISK.

Enquire at the sign of the Drunken Basilisk, ask for Vincent."

Now, I am setting myself up for another Ryan Dancey Munitions sinking depth charge here but, here goes anyway.

This is purely based on the phrase "a 20th level capstone character should be a rare thing" (paraphrasing) comment but.. with this in mind.

I suspect that training may very well be limited to a single toon.. Why?

Well if they did it otherwise (assuming they don't come up with some kick ass alternate we haven't thought of yet) then other requirements not withstanding it would be possible for someone to create 11 characters on day 1 of launch and then, admittedly 2 1/2 years later, ding 11 level 20 capstone toons.

Now this is obviously NOT what is going to happen.. I am sure that some of the archetype merit badges are going to come with requirements "other" than just skills (must have played XX hours of dungeons where XX is a reasonable number but not achievable if all you did was log in and set up your skill training regimen)

But hopefully you see my point.

If we start pulling major features entirely because of what griefers might/will do with those features, then we are preemptively griefing ourselves.

Very zen argument grasshopper!

both you and Onishi make valid arguments.
I'd just like to point out that I onlt listed this as my number one reason for not including it.
I have other "lesser" (in my eyes) reason FOR including it.. But they are all provisoed on mechanics being included to enforce some kind of rule of law.. and as of yet theres no indication if anythign like this is to be implemented (or at least no detail I have seen).

For instance I think that a communities alignment could have a very reall effect on the results of friendly fire events. That is of course wholly outside of the adventuring environment though, which this thread is mainly predicated on, so its off topic and I won't take the train of thought any further :D

I doubt they'll ever go down. More likely they will just increase less rapidly with the addition of non-combat archetype merits.
+1 Fighter merit = +10 hit points.
+1 Wizard Merit = +4 hit points.

So a level 20 fighter (200hp) with a single level of Wizard (+4hp) will have slightly more hit points than a level 20 fighter (200hp) but slightly less than a level 20 fighter (200hp) with a single Barbarian level (+12hp).

These are, of course, all assumptions.

As you haven't played D&D in decades I'll assume your a contemporary of 2nd edition and earlier multiclassing where your hit points at each level where a derivative of your total hit dice at that level.
Since 3rd Edition and onwards "all" multiclassing is closer to older editions ideas of Dual Classing but without the earlier editions putting aside of class abilities and bonuses untilt he new class levels equalled the old ones.

1st edition Bards were SO broken!!

Apologies if this has already been said but

Number one reason (in my opinion) for not having friendly fire is..

PFRPG = A game played on a tabletop between friends who (hopefully) respect each others opinions and wants and are their to have a consensually created imagination fueled recreation session.

PFO = An online environment full of complete strangers most of whom are likely to have little if any concern for anyone elses game experience.

and with the greatest good will in the world when providing the second game environment it WILL become abused by the annoying uncaring minority.

Now, being zapped when your party Cleric kicks off a positive channel energy heal because you munchkinned and rolled a Dhampir.. thats entirely different :D

and on the subject of the bard capstone.. it might be fun to have a character with one of those annoying mass emotes.. you know the one. Everyone suddenly cheers and punches the air, only to have the toon the Bard has specifically targetted do that and then fall over dead! (Will save to reduce it to being staggered for 1d4 rounds :D)

DEADLY PERFORMANCE!!

Think of it as icing rather than cake.

Because the cake is a 'much overused internet meme'. *cough*lie*cough*

I guess the question of "can you have more than one capstone" is "yes", you just have to do 20 levels in series instead of parallel in more than one archetype.

***BOOOOOMMMM***

That was the sound of Ryan sinking my Battleship :D
So we have it confirmed, as long as you manage to be Bobby Dedicated and do everything in regimented sequence you WILL be able to get all your capstones.

So we must change our question to..

Who will be the first 20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/19 Billy No mates!

Also think on this, as long as the pitfalls and limitations are made "ABSOLUTELY CLEAR" on day one of character inception.
What is wrong with your choices having lasting consequences?

TBH that is something that is also missing from most MMO's.

Edit - Sorry Onishi, I neglected to make that clear in my original post that they have indeed done MORE than make it clear at inception.. Yes. Above and beyond in this instance.

(I doubt wizards will be particularly good at casting in full plate armor with a heavy shield).

Well Feats and other such frippery not withstanding, I hope they have the PFO equivalent of a 50% arcane Spell Failure chance :D

Cue the argument about casting spells in armour :P

" Why is a character who takes 20 levels of fighter then one of rogue more dedicated to being a fighter than one who takes one level of rogue then 20 levels of fighter? They're both Fighter 20/Rogue 1 characters who took 20 levels of fighter in a row.

---

If only because the second gentleman has a small amount of learned knowledge of larceny and stealth that will, by dint of him knowing it, irrevocably affect his experience of those 20 levels of Fighter.

@Bobson - I see where you are coming from now. You're positing the enabling of a single capstone ability from your first archetype to reach 20 merits regardless of actual character level.
This has merit, I still prefer the vanilla PFRPG option (reqwarding the specialist) but if you're suggestion has an appropriately extended time commitment then I could see that happening.

If it goes ahead that way, who's going to be the first 19/19/19/19/19/19/19/19/19/19/19 character to have that choice of which one to finalise first :P

but then if you take that to its ultimate conclusion you lose any and all variety.
Simplify it down to assuming htere were only ever going to be 2 classes.
After the theoretical 2 1/2 years the 20th level Class A specialist has his capstone ability and the class traits his 20 levels provide.
His compatriot the Class B specialist also has his on different set of class traits and their indecisive friend the AB Hybrid has an appropriate mix of both.
Fast forward the clock another theoretical 2 1/2 years (with a wild assumption that the progression is linear and will take the same amount of time) and our 3 unique companions have all tranformed into identicla cookie cutter 20A/20B builds with exactly the same capabilties.

An extreme example, Yes. An unrealistic example, also Yes.
But it does demonstrate a valid point.
If everyone can ultimately access everything then after a given amount of time everyone will have everything.

THAT is a scenario I would like to see them at least try to avoid.

and in contradiction to my own earlier post (after seing that they do indeed clearly state that class advancement beyond your first 20 badges WILL indeed be possible) I do believe that only your first 20 archetype merits should qualify towards your capstone.
To those who argue this is not realistic, neither are goblins, Dragons and spellcasting old men running around in their pyjama's and a pointy hat!

Also I suspect that the crafting "archetypes" are going to be separate to the "adventuring" archetypes and that choices in one will not limit choices in the other.
It'll just have an effect on your time investment.

This would also allow you to retain further choice subsequent to achieving 20 merit badges in a base archetype.

All prediction though.

But they don't explicitly state that they will only give access to class abilities.
If "all" they did was grant class abilities then I would agree with you.. I suspect, however, that this will not be the case.

Hi all, first off I'd like to say I like the article quite a bit but the discussion on here has inspired me to respond a bit.

First of the usual "I'm a newbie to the forums but my pedigree is", played dozens of MMO's (including EVE, WOW, LOTRO and most recently SWTOR) and have been serving under the RPG yoke for almost 3 decades.

Lots of people are talking about more than 20 class levels and the interaction capstone abilities will have when you get more than 20 class levels.
Now, my take on the article is this, you won't ever get more than 20 class levels.
PFRPG limits you to 20 class levels and I suspect the MMO will do likewise.
"surely this will limit progression immensely I hear you cry"..
"Of course not" is my response. Why?

Well it all hinges on what Ryan was saying when he started talking about the reversal of level/skill relationship.
I envision the following.

You build up some of your skills to a point where you qualify to choose a class "feature" based on the skill levels you currently possess. This is the archetype badge that is mentioned.
If your skills allow it and you choose to do so, at this point you can choose a merit badge for the archetype you want.
You continue to build skills and reach your second milestone, you get to pick a second archetype merit badge.
All of this is already covered in what's been said before.

I suspect, and this is what diverges from teh arguments put forward thus far, is that you will only "ever" get to pick 20 of these archetype merit badges (prestige class implementation not withstanding).

Once you hit 20 merit badges you will be unable to achieve any more "class" merit badges and by association you will not get any more "class" abilities.

Nothing will stop you getting higher "skills", but as the skills in PFRPG are nothing to do with the various class' abilities (fighting, spellcasting, divine healing etc.) this is absolutely fine and does not restrict choice.

Therefore taking 20 merit badges as fighter "will" give you the capstone for fighter where taking 18 fighter and 2 cleric will "not".
But conversely the 20 merit badge fighter will never be able to learn "any" Cleric class abilities.
They can't get any more archetype merit badges!

This is going to be a very real choice for your character and, as a core element of the games basic design, will have a real and permanent affect on what you will be able to do.

This is of course "all" supposition and prediction and is no less "right" than anyone else opinion.

Regards
JohnC