So basic spell casting

[Heimer]

The book says:
Basic Spellcasting Feat: Available at 4th level, these feats grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-level spell slot.

Does this mean that I only get 1 first level spell I can cast 1 time each day??? and when I reach 6th level I have 1 first level spell each day and 1 second level spell each day?

Or how does it work?

[Bomberbros1011]

Heimer wrote:

The book says:

Basic Spellcasting Feat: Available at 4th level, these feats grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-level spell slot.

Does this mean that I only get 1 first level spell I can cast 1 time each day??? and when I reach 6th level I have 1 first level spell each day and 1 second level spell each day?

Or how does it work?

That is pretty much right. There's also cantrips, which you get from the spellcasting dedication feat, and since cantrips automatically scale, they aren't too bad of an option. Plus as soon as you take a spellcasting dedication feat you can use wands, scrolls, and staves that have spells of your tradition.

[Staffan Johansson]

There's also the ________ Breadth feats that give you a second slot of every spell level except your two highest. So if you get Basic, Expert, and Master ________ Spellcasting and ________ Breadth, you'll eventually end up with two slots of each level up to 6th and one each of 7th and 8th level.

[Laran]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

There's also the ________ Breadth feats that give you a second slot of every spell level except your two highest. So if you get Basic, Expert, and Master ________ Spellcasting and ________ Breadth, you'll eventually end up with two slots of each level up to 6th and one each of 7th and 8th level.

Thus, 4 or 5 feats. Dedication, basic, expert, master, breadth, arcane School spell. Thus you are using 1/2 your class feats (if you take ancient elf, it is one less) for 14 spell slots cast at master proficiency, 2 cantrips, 1 focus spell. This is your full-on dip into spell casting

[Vlorax]

Laran wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

There's also the ________ Breadth feats that give you a second slot of every spell level except your two highest. So if you get Basic, Expert, and Master ________ Spellcasting and ________ Breadth, you'll eventually end up with two slots of each level up to 6th and one each of 7th and 8th level.

Thus, 4 or 5 feats. Dedication, basic, expert, master, breadth, arcane School spell. Thus you are using 1/2 your class feats (if you take ancient elf, it is one less) for 14 spell slots cast at master proficiency, 2 cantrips, 1 focus spell. This is your full-on dip into spell casting

It's also one less if you use Multi-talented, just comes online much later.

[ofMars]

It really doesn't seem that impressive on paper, but I'm hoping the fact that it gives you the ability to use wands, scrolls, and staves without a skill check using the trick magic item feat makes it more useful. I am leaning more towards the set of feats to get the focus spells, though

[Taja the Barbarian]

ofMars wrote:

It really doesn't seem that impressive on paper, but I'm hoping the fact that it gives you the ability to use wands, scrolls, and staves without a skill check using the trick magic item feat makes it more useful. I am leaning more towards the set of feats to get the focus spells, though

Well, keep in mind that casting classes only get 3 spell slots per spell level in PF2, so you are getting nearly 2/3rds of their casting capacity...

[Laran]

You are correct that the basic spell casting feat does not look powerful on paper (and it is not). If you stop at basic, you are really using it for either a couple of buffing spells, a no roll spell (e.g. mm), access to a spell list and that is it (Due to being trained only and never progressing). That might be all you want for a martial class with a dip. Think of it as the Rogue's Minor Magic feat from 1e.

Focus spells are suboptimal since you only get the first unless you add more feats (or are very very selective as to what you dip)

[Castilliano]

After the first feat, it's sort of an all or nothing option which takes time to come to fruition.

But I have to disagree about focus spells being suboptimal for MCDs.
If (and it is an "if") you find a focus spell you like, that represents a casting after every lull. Given how few slots you get, that's a big bump in casting quantity. Again, if you think the spell has quality that is.

[HumbleGamer]

ofMars wrote:

It really doesn't seem that impressive on paper, but I'm hoping the fact that it gives you the ability to use wands, scrolls, and staves without a skill check using the trick magic item feat makes it more useful. I am leaning more towards the set of feats to get the focus spells, though

Focus spells are cool but sometimes you will run out of class feats just trying to chase one spell.

Imagine a champion

18 str
16 charisma

He will eventually lvl up both of them any 5 lvls.

Lvl 1 champion class feat

Lvl 2 sorcerer dedication ( 1st )

Lvl 4 basic bloodline spell ( no extra focus point, cause of loh, so just a useless focus spell )

Lvl 6 basic bloodline potency, because you will need basic to unlock advanced. There are only caster feats, which could enhance the few spells you have or even no spells if you simply went for the focus part.

Lvl 8 basic spellcasting

Lvl 10 bloodline bredth ( if you want more spells and you are not an arcane spellcaster. If you are you are blessed and can have extra slot through a ring of wizardly ).

Little ot explaining ring of wizardly vs spell bredth:

Quote:

By lvl 7 you can have the lvl 1 ring which will give you 2 extra lvl 1 spells.

By lvl 10 you will have the lvl 2 ring,which will give you 2 lvl 2 spells and 1 lvl 1 spell.

By lvl 12 you will have the lvl 3 ring,which will give you 2 lvl 3 spells and 1 lvl 2 spell

By lvl 14 you will have the lvl 4 ring,which will give you 2 lvl 4 spells and 1 lvl 3 spell

Extra spells with bredth, assuming you will take spellcasting at any possible lvl.

Lvl 8 = 1 lvl 1 spell
Lvl 12 = 1 lvl 2 spell
+2 lvl = 1 lvl +1 spell

Lvl 12 advanced blood potency ( mi tier focus point ). But your spells dc is still trained.

Lvl 14 expert spellcasting ( expert dc )

Lvl 18 master spellcasting ( master dc )

Personally, sometimes focus spells could be worth it. Sometimes they are not.

[First World Bard]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Lvl 4 basic bloodline spell ( no extra focus point, cause of loh, so just a useless focus spell )

You do get the extra focus point. See "Focus Points from Multiple Sources", CRB pg 302.

[HumbleGamer]

The spell specifically says you don't, and specific beats general.

Quote:

PFS Legal Basic Bloodline SpellFeat 4

Archetype
Source Core Rulebook pg. 230
Archetype Sorcerer
Prerequisites Sorcerer Dedication
You gain your bloodline’s initial bloodline spell. If you don’t already have one, you also gain a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, which you can Refocus without any special effort. (For more on bloodline spells, see page 194.)

Unless it is specified somewhere on the recent errata.

If an ability gives you an extra point is written in a different way like this

Quote:

PFS Legal Advanced BloodlineFeat 6
Sorcerer
Source Core Rulebook pg. 200
Prerequisites bloodline spell
You have studied your bloodline to learn the secrets of its magic. You gain the advanced bloodline spell associated with your bloodline. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.

[First World Bard]

I still disagree. It is telling you what happens if you don't already have a focus pool. If you already have a focus pool, you follow the rules on pg 302.

Focus Points from Multiple Sources wrote:

It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.

Note that Healing Touch has the same wording as Basic Bloodline Spell. Advanced Bloodline doesn't need that wording because you already need a focus pool, due to the prerequisite.

[HumbleGamer]

Advanced bloodline has as prerequisite the Basic bloodline spell, not a focus pool.

Other focus spells specifically requires you to have a pool

Quote:

Lingering CompositionFeat 1

Bard
Source Core Rulebook pg. 99
Prerequisites maestro muse, focus pool
By adding a flourish, you make your compositions last longer. You learn the lingering composition focus spell. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.

[Kylian Winters]

First World Bard wrote:

I still disagree. It is telling you what happens if you don't already have a focus pool. If you already have a focus pool, you follow the rules on pg 302.

Focus Points from Multiple Sources wrote:

It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.

Note that Healing Touch has the same wording as Basic Bloodline Spell. Advanced Bloodline doesn't need that wording because you already need a focus pool, due to the prerequisite.

Yeah, this is my interpretation as well. Seems pretty straight forward. Takes less cognitive load to interpret it this way than twisting the feat description to not adhere to the focus pool rules as written.

[First World Bard]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Advanced bloodline has as prerequisite the Basic bloodline spell, not a focus pool.

Other focus spells specifically requires you to have a pool

Yes, but my point is that by requiring Basic Bloodline Spell, you are as a consequence also requiring a focus pool. Either you have a focus pool before you take Basic Bloodline Spell, or Basic Bloodline spell gives you one.

However, a character could otherwise take Lingering Composition without having a focus pool. For example, they might be multiclassing into Bard from a class that doesn't have a focus pool. So "focus pool" is the prerequisite.

[HumbleGamer]

Then it could have been written like the bard feat.

By changing the maestro muse requirement with Basic bloodline spell.

However I also think that would be more balanced the way you suggest, but to have to interpretate the text so far, and also having different sentences Describing other feats, it is not the best deal I expected.

[First World Bard]

I agree that it is not clear. I think they wrote it that way to save space. This avoids an extra sentence in every feat that gives a Focus pool. They also don't include the limit of 3 Focus points everywhere.
Maybe in the next printing they could make this more clear somehow.
In any case, happy gaming!

[Uchuujin]

Now if you can just figure out a way to get Hand of the Apprentice as a focus spell with Wizard Dedication, because it's impossible as far as I can tell.

[Castilliano]

Uchuujin wrote:

Now if you can just figure out a way to get Hand of the Apprentice as a focus spell with Wizard Dedication, because it's impossible as far as I can tell.

It depends on how one reads "Universalist".

It is listed under the Arcane School options (mechanics) while then saying in its description it's not an Arcane School. At this point I'd lean toward allowing it since I think the MCD is unlocking the mechanic and it'd be odd that all MCD Wizards would be forced into a narrow field.
The awkward part is that the Arcane School Spell feat wouldn't then get you any spell, since there isn't one. Your PC also wouldn't gain the other bonuses that a Wizard gets from being a Universalist, since those aren't listed in what the Archetype feat gives you. They'd gain a Focus Point (& pool), yet without any Focus Spell to cast. It's this last bit that sways me against, since a feat that explicitly gives you a spell should (or shouldn't not) give you a spell. Getting a floating Focus Point feels like something's gone astray.

That'd be my PFS interpretation. For home use, I might allow this since then the PC still must take Hand of the Apprentice w/ another feat. That'd be a hefty investment (1 good feat, 14 Int, & 2 more feats) all to give an attack that they'd likely be less proficient in, likely have a lower stat supporting, and can use once per lull (w/ an extra use per day).
I'd be questioning my player's build ability at that point.

[Uchuujin]

Castilliano wrote:

Uchuujin wrote:

Now if you can just figure out a way to get Hand of the Apprentice as a focus spell with Wizard Dedication, because it's impossible as far as I can tell.

It depends on how one reads "Universalist".

It is listed under the Arcane School options (mechanics) while then saying in its description it's not an Arcane School. At this point I'd lean toward allowing it since I think the MCD is unlocking the mechanic and it'd be odd that all MCD Wizards would be forced into a narrow field.
The awkward part is that the Arcane School Spell feat wouldn't then get you any spell, since there isn't one. Your PC also wouldn't gain the other bonuses that a Wizard gets from being a Universalist, since those aren't listed in what the Archetype feat gives you. They'd gain a Focus Point (& pool), yet without any Focus Spell to cast. It's this last bit that sways me against, since a feat that explicitly gives you a spell should (or shouldn't not) give you a spell. Getting a floating Focus Point feels like something's gone astray.

That'd be my PFS interpretation. For home use, I might allow this since then the PC still must take Hand of the Apprentice w/ another feat. That'd be a hefty investment (1 good feat, 14 Int, & 2 more feats) all to give an attack that they'd likely be less proficient in, likely have a lower stat supporting, and can use once per lull (w/ an extra use per day).
I'd be questioning my player's build ability at that point.

That (the waste feat / floating focus point) is the closest to RAW reading as I have been able to come with as well. Unless simply not taking Arcane School Spell makes you a universalist by default, which might also be the case, because the line from Wizard on Arcane School reads: "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist..."

[mrspaghetti]

There is actually another thread on this exact topic. I had assumed that all wizards (including MC wizards) were Universalists by default for purposes of taking the Hand of the Apprentice feat, but there are some good arguments indicating the devs may have intentionally restricted that feat to primary wizards who are Universalists.

[Uchuujin]

mrspaghetti wrote:

There is actually another thread on this exact topic. I had assumed that all wizards (including MC wizards) were Universalists by default for purposes of taking the Hand of the Apprentice feat, but there are some good arguments indicating the devs may have intentionally restricted that feat to primary wizards who are Universalists.

Thanks, I'll look there and let this get back on track.

[First World Bard]

Back to Basic Spellcasting:
My main PF2 character is an Animal Order Druid with Bard dedication. I expect I will spend half of my class feats on druid feats (Mature, Incredible, Specialized, Lvl 20 Capstone) and the other half can go to Bard dedication. But I need to decide if I will take the Basic/Expert/Master Spellcasting + Occult Breadth (and probably Inspire Courage too), or instead go the composition spells route, picking up Inspire Competence, one of Inspire Courage or Inspire Defense, Inspire Heroics, and also the druid feats that let me Refocus back up to 2/3. This is a PFS character, so I don't know my party will look like, scenario to scenario. Before the errata, Basic/Expert/Master Bardic Spellcasting didn't seem like a great option, but now that each feat comes with a signature spell, they're a little more palatable.