Ironhammer33 |
Greetings all.
First and foremost, thank you to everyone at Paizo for the amazing Dragon and Dungeon magazines you published for many years and then for picking up the pieces of many of our broken hearts when Wizards killed 3.5 and led me to you.
I will keep my inquiry simple: why don't we officially have goliaths in Golarion or in our PF and PF2 books? They are such a phenomenal race, why not continue to make several people's dreams come true and let us play goliaths on this side of the planes too?
Thank you and all the best.
-Iron
Ironhammer33 |
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You'll likely get pretty close with oreads which could come in a future product.
Thank you for the uplifting alternative. :-(
The-Magic-Sword |
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The-Magic-Sword wrote:I would like to see Half-Giant as a Universal heritage, so we can have half giant Elves, and half giant Lizardfolk, and etc.Now I want to play a half-giant halfling that everyone thinks is just a human.
I was low key thinking about Half Giant Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes and Goblins as well XD
David knott 242 |
You'll likely get pretty close with oreads which could come in a future product.
Oreads are on the short side in PF1.
Maybe an Ogrekin heritage would work?
Malk_Content |
Ruzza wrote:You'll likely get pretty close with oreads which could come in a future product.Oreads are on the short side in PF1.
Maybe an Ogrekin heritage would work?
I doubt we'll get them in pf2 as a player option due to the unfortunate circumstance in which they are created.
Sporkedup |
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There is nothing less interesting that they could do then to retread ground that has already been walked by others. Unless they have something a particularly interesting spin to put on the concept, I'd rather see space dedicated to knew things.
New ancestry, returning ancestry, I'm not so bothered. It's just that, treating humans as the average, there's maybe one ancestry bigger and at least six smaller. Just needs a little balance on the "very large person" side, whether or not they actually are size Large mechanically.
Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.
Deserk |
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I hope Paizo could come up with something equivalent to the Goliath. A giant-blooded (but Medium-sized) player race could be interesting. Nothing too powerful. Something a bit like an orc in terms of being a large humanoid with a martial-focused culture, but less bestial or evil-oriented and a bit less at odds with the world.
Salamileg |
Sporkedup wrote:Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.Something with an int penalty? That would be a big can of worms to open.
I'm buying pop-corns in advance.
We already have an Int penalty ancestry with the Leshy.
NECR0G1ANT |
Megistone wrote:We already have an Int penalty ancestry with the Leshy.Sporkedup wrote:Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.Something with an int penalty? That would be a big can of worms to open.
I'm buying pop-corns in advance.
Lizardfolk also have an INT penalty.
Megistone |
Salamileg wrote:Lizardfolk also have an INT penalty.Megistone wrote:We already have an Int penalty ancestry with the Leshy.Sporkedup wrote:Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.Something with an int penalty? That would be a big can of worms to open.
I'm buying pop-corns in advance.
Oh well, shame on me for not having even looked at that book yet.
However, I find rather strange that no discussions arised about that. I'll keep my pop-corn, just in case.Vlorax |
NECR0G1ANT wrote:Salamileg wrote:Lizardfolk also have an INT penalty.Megistone wrote:We already have an Int penalty ancestry with the Leshy.Sporkedup wrote:Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.Something with an int penalty? That would be a big can of worms to open.
I'm buying pop-corns in advance.Oh well, shame on me for not having even looked at that book yet.
However, I find rather strange that no discussions arised about that. I'll keep my pop-corn, just in case.
Why would an Int penalty be a big deal?
It's the least useful stat, having a -1 to it isn't much of an issue.
Tarik Blackhands |
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Megistone wrote:NECR0G1ANT wrote:Salamileg wrote:Lizardfolk also have an INT penalty.Megistone wrote:We already have an Int penalty ancestry with the Leshy.Sporkedup wrote:Goliath, half giant, olead, whatever. Give me a race that's big and dumb and let me enjoy trying to turn them into an investigator.Something with an int penalty? That would be a big can of worms to open.
I'm buying pop-corns in advance.Oh well, shame on me for not having even looked at that book yet.
However, I find rather strange that no discussions arised about that. I'll keep my pop-corn, just in case.Why would an Int penalty be a big deal?
It's the least useful stat, having a -1 to it isn't much of an issue.
But you forget about the I M P L I C A T I O N S *waves hands around in a spooky manner*
Seisho |
The problem with half giant is largely...uhm...pun not intended... that that's how ogres are made
And lets be honest, ogres are not exactly made in a pc friendly way (even less so then orcs, lizardmen, etc...)
although I don't know what happens if giants try to breed with anything other then humans (maybe that's how wood giants came to be? they have a certain nature affinity and pointy ears)
Tender Tendrils |
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The problem with half giant is largely...uhm...pun not intended... that that's how ogres are made
And lets be honest, ogres are not exactly made in a pc friendly way (even less so then orcs, lizardmen, etc...)
although I don't know what happens if giants try to breed with anything other then humans (maybe that's how wood giants came to be? they have a certain nature affinity and pointy ears)
Honestly, the less we think about giants breeding with medium sized people, and all of its implications, the better.
Staffan Johansson |
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Yup! And they're not that easy to homebrew, either... It's some of the more complicated creatures in their game.
Back in the 3e days, one of the third-party companies made a short book with OGL replacements for the more iconic creatures that were declared as product identity. The creatures had mechanics that were similar, but different appearances and lore.
Ah, some googling found it. Iconic Bestiary - Classics of Fantasy, written by Ari "Mouseferatu" Marmell.
Aristophanes |
Seisho wrote:Honestly, the less we think about giants breeding with medium sized people, and all of its implications, the better.The problem with half giant is largely...uhm...pun not intended... that that's how ogres are made
And lets be honest, ogres are not exactly made in a pc friendly way (even less so then orcs, lizardmen, etc...)
although I don't know what happens if giants try to breed with anything other then humans (maybe that's how wood giants came to be? they have a certain nature affinity and pointy ears)
Maybe Giants are so large because they are...over compensating for other short comings.
FlashRebel |
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Pretty sure Goliaths are owned by WotC, but if Paizo wanted their own ancestry in that vein they could always make half giants.
The term "goliath" wasn't invented by WotC in the first place, then I don't know how they can claim to own it. Copyrighting a word that existed at least a full millenium before you were born is completely ridiculous.
Vlorax |
Salamileg wrote:Pretty sure Goliaths are owned by WotC, but if Paizo wanted their own ancestry in that vein they could always make half giants.The term "goliath" wasn't invented by WotC in the first place, then I don't know how they can claim to own it. Copyrighting a word that existed at least a full millenium before you were born is completely ridiculous.
They likely have rights to "goliaths" in regards to a fantasy half-giant/half-human race as it exists in DnD.
Not all uses of the word goliath.
Opsylum |
With the new Lost Omens book announced, I’m wondering if there’s anything Paizo could tap into for filling this niche. I super enjoy playing big, imposing characters in tabletop, and thus far, the only option to really go that route are orcs and half-orcs, which are great, but have some evil alignment baggage that can make playing as them complicated in large swaths of the setting. 5e has a great selection of giant-like characters, from Minotaurs and Centaurs, Firbolgs and Goliaths, and Dragonborn especially, all who stand a head taller than anyone else around them.
Looking through 1E’s Advanced Race Guide (which is one of my favorite PF books), I don’t see too many races that fill this niche either. Oreads are a relatively rare, supernatural ancestry. Nagaji and Trox seem kind of isolated to certain corners of the setting. Cyclopes seem slightly more spread around, but they’re also pretty rare. Interestingly, Firbolg are part of the setting, but I haven’t seen anything of them outside a Bestiary. Nuar/Minotaurs seem like the best bet, being pretty well represented in Absalom — which has got a big spotlight on it right now — and in Starfinder, where they were one of the first races made playable. Centaurs seem workable as well.
What kind of non-reputationally-evil giant races would you like to see make the jump to PC in a future 2E book?
Sporkedup |
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With the new Lost Omens book announced, I’m wondering if there’s anything Paizo could tap into for filling this niche. I super enjoy playing big, imposing characters in tabletop, and thus far, the only option to really go that route are orcs and half-orcs, which are great, but have some evil alignment baggage that can make playing as them complicated in large swaths of the setting. 5e has a great selection of giant-like characters, from Minotaurs and Centaurs, Firbolgs and Goliaths, and Dragonborn especially, all who stand a head taller than anyone else around them.
Looking through 1E’s Advanced Race Guide (which is one of my favorite PF books), I don’t see too many races that fill this niche either. Oreads are a relatively rare, supernatural bloodline. Nagaji and Trox seem kind of isolated to certain corners of the setting. Cyclopes seem slightly more spread around, but they’re also pretty rare. Interestingly, Firbolg are part of the setting, but I haven’t seen anything of them outside a Bestiary. Nuar seem like the best bet, being pretty well represented in Absalom — which has got a big spotlight on it right now — and in Starfinder, where they were one of the first races made playable. Centaurs seem workable as well.
What kind of non-reputationally-evil giant races would you like to see make the jump to PC in a future 2E book?
You and I are on exactly the same page on this. I even said as much in Luis Loza's Lost Omens survey yesterday.
Ascalaphus |
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I do think the new line of setting books would be a great opportunity to think again on giants.
We have this legacy from D&D in the 19XXs of "Hill Giants" and "Swamp Giants" and "particular biome that your earth sciences teacher once wrote a paper about Giants".
But really, how do giants fit into the world at large? Where do they live on Golarion? Are there giant nations? Are there actually sufficient breeding populations? Are the various "terrain giants" related through common descent?
Temperans |
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Well we do know some general areas where giants are frequent: Realm of the Mammoth Lord to Varisia, anywhere there is a Cyclops population, etc.
The Cyclops are known to have ruled nations in northern Casmaron, Avistan, and Garund before Azlant.
The Mongrel Giant Template does state that different species of giants can't crossbreed, but that there is speculation of a common ancestor.
The different Giants do have some level of history or society, I recommend reading this: Giants. That page and its links do have a lot of interesting things about giants, like the fact that the Elysian Titans are the only ones to remain free.
Seisho |
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Well, the Bestiaries kind of answer it for some of them
Hill Giants live in Hill Giant villages mostly around hill terrain.
Not sure if there is a stable population but if we consider orges we unfortunately know how that business goes
Stone Giants live rather reclusive high in the mointains and strong in line with nature, so their villages are probably rather hard to find
Frost Giants are Plunderers with their villages usually high in the north or on freezing mountains, basically a village of overgrown cliche vikings
Fire Giants have not so specified home turf but I imagine they prefer hotter climate (but not damp ones) and they spend much time to themselves honing their fighting skills
Cloud Giants also seem to prefer hidden valleys and lonely peaks where humans rarely tread - and theres the thing with the cloud villages they don't talk about
Storm Giants seem mostly to be living on tropical islands, coastlines and rocky archipelagos - at least the last one is hard to reach and they certainly can have their peace and quiet around those parts
Rune giants are even more reclusive then other giants - and since most giants fear them (and would probably hunt them given a good opportunity) it is no wonder that they are rarely seen
Wood Giants seem to be very social and besides their size to be easily able to hide in woodlands.
Marsh Giants are know to commit cannibalism and prefer to eat things they have slain in battle. It seem that they breed fast enough that they killing each other is part of factors that keep their population in check
Taiga Giants are nomads and some villages seem to give the offerings to be left in peace
In general there seems to be a stable population of giants in many terrains and they seem to breed enough that it does not seem to decline to much
Giant Nations seem not to be a thing, at least not on a large scale. But in a big place like golarion there are more then enough hidden corners where Giants can live in relative peace.
And about common descent - considering that the Titans on the planes are the biggest and most powerful giants, followed by the gigas, down to the unelegant hill giants and even below that ogres and the misshapen ogre-kin I think it is safe to assume (at least it seems to me like that) that lower giant kin is in many cases what happens if giants try to breed with humans (as we all knows, humans also breed with everything, given oppotunity)
Deadmanwalking |
However, I find rather strange that no discussions arised about that. I'll keep my pop-corn, just in case.
Both are far enough away from human that it mostly avoids unfortunate implications territory, IMO. It is, perhaps, no coincidence that they're some of the ancestries most completely divorced from being or looking human.
The fact that ability penalties are able to be completely overcome in PF2, meaning a genius Iruxi is as smart as a genius Human just rarer, is also probably a factor.
Why would an Int penalty be a big deal?
It's the least useful stat, having a -1 to it isn't much of an issue.
This is pretty untrue, IMO. I'd strongly argue Charisma is the least useful stat, with Str and Int about on par as next worst. And all three of those are still useful on the right characters.
..
.
On the actual topic, I think a giant-affiliated Ancestry would be sweet and I'd love to see one. In the meantime, it's been revealed what Orc stat mods are (+2 Str, floating +2, no flaw), and those or Iruxi should both work for 'big strong race guy' pretty well.
Temperans |
Hmm from the wiki.
* Hill Giants do tend to be nomadic. With populations in the Gnashers mountain range, the Land of Linnorm Kings, the Mana Wastes, and the Realm of Mammoth Lord.
* There is a population of Fire Giants in the Mindspin Mountains.
* The majority of Stone Giants live in the Storval Plateau, with some living in the Iron Peaks and Wyvern Mountains. Some giants also live in the Tusk and Kodar Mountains, where the young may be captured and raised among humans.
* Marsh Giants prefer to live in swamps and bayous. Preferably saltwater swamps to conduct rituals. Btw I am unsure on the Cannibalism part. But they do practice a form of Animism where eating stuff gives you power and giving birth reduces it.
* Rune Giants are rare and mostly found in Thessalonian ruins.
* Storm Giants can be found with guarantee along the coast of Garund, islands off shore of Katapesh, in the mountains of Rahadoum, and on Jagged Reach (a small island near the Eye of Abendego).
* Cloud Giants are found in the peaks of the Kodar, Mindspin, and Menador Mountains or in ruined Thassilonian outpost (they are easily the prettiest giants).
* Half of Frost Giants are nomadic, the rest use abandoned castles and caves.
* Eclipse Giants (40ft tall) spend their time wandering while looking at the sky in search of eclipses to unlock their inner self.
* River Giants have a rising population on the Sellen River.
* Several Shadow Giants families are known to live in Nidal serving the Umbral Court.
* Ash Giants live in desolate and barren places in the inner sea region.
***************************
More on topic.
While I was reading where the giants lived on Golarion, I found out that some hill giants are born unusually small that are only 8.5 ft tall, but are just as strong as normal sized Hill Giants (10-11 ft tall).
So if there is any version of true giants that might become a PC its those. Note, they are still giants with all that entails.
glass |
Salamileg wrote:Pretty sure Goliaths are owned by WotC, but if Paizo wanted their own ancestry in that vein they could always make half giants./sigh. I thought the OGL would have gotten around that. :-(
By "owned by WotC", I think Salamileg was suggesting that they are not open content (and if they weren't, I am). Therefore the OGL has no bearing.
_
glass.
Staffan Johansson |
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Is "I am always large, even when it is inconvenient" a core part of the fantasy or can we fill this sort of thing with "I can get big when I want to"?
Both goliaths and 3.5e half-giants are on the large size of Medium, but not actually Large. Half-giants had the Powerful Build ability (treat as Large for the purpose of combat maneuvers, weapon use, and things like Swallow Whole), but were technically Medium. Not sure if goliaths had the same.
PossibleCabbage |
So could we fill this niche with an ancestry that isn't especially human-esque but runs 8-9' tall and thickly built but doesn't leave the medium category?
Like if they're furry, or scaly, or plant-like, or planar, or w/e would that work? Or if like "Jumbo Package" were a heritage for Androids, who are literally awakened constructs and could theoretically be whatever size.
Staffan Johansson |
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I think a big part of the attraction of playing a goliath is being the Big Dude without being, for lack of a better word, monstrous. I don't think a Wookiee lookalike (Wookalike?) would fill the same niche.
That said, I don't think Powerful Build needs to be imported from 3e to cover them, particularly since weapon damage doesn't scale with size anymore. Or at least not in its 3.5e form. 5e goliaths also have an ability called Powerful Build, but it only covers weight capacity (carry, drag, lift).
Goliaths also get bonus popularity from Critical Role, as one of the PCs in the original campaign was one. So any Big Dude ancestry should be able to do what Grog could do, albeit in a Pathfinder context.
Shisumo |
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I think a big part of the attraction of playing a goliath is being the Big Dude without being, for lack of a better word, monstrous. I don't think a Wookiee lookalike (Wookalike?) would fill the same niche.
That said, I don't think Powerful Build needs to be imported from 3e to cover them, particularly since weapon damage doesn't scale with size anymore. Or at least not in its 3.5e form. 5e goliaths also have an ability called Powerful Build, but it only covers weight capacity (carry, drag, lift).
Could be as simple as giving Hefty Hauler as a ancestral bonus feat, in the same way that iruxi get Breath Control.
Odraude |
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Paizo may not have Goliaths but they do have Nephilim.
And I would love to see them as an Ancestry.
This is a super cool idea and something I actually have for my own setting. You could even have the ancestry as descended from nephilim. I know from the same mysticism, there are tribes of giant peoples called elioud that descended from nephilim. Would be a cool way to introduce them in and base them on real-world lore.