Weretouched shifter natural attack build help


Advice


Greetings,

I like the idea of transforming to deal damage and I was thinking of going with a shifter for the flavour of multiple animal powers along the way (HELLO, BRAVESTARR?). The full BAB is always nice as well.

Then I learned to things I didn't comprehend till now.
1) shifter's aspect bonuses are enhancement bonuses which you can get fairly easy later on from gear (first meh)

2) your armor eitherway, when you transform gets absorbed into you so you lose the bonuses (second biggest meh)

After some digging around I found about weretouched shifter and its niche which enables it to keep wearing armor due to hybrid form.

As I see it, since you are aspect locked into the aspect you will chose in the beginning, chimeric aspect and greater chimeric aspect are tossed out of the window for weretouched shifter.

My focus then became to either go with deinonychus or tiger aspects (the one has more attacks, the other hits harder) and then boost as much as I can its attacks.

I was thinking about going with multiclass into alchemist and boost myself with mutagens etc.

I also saw the druid spells (strong jaw, animal growth, greater magic fang) and I also wondered if it is any good. (as a multiclass, or totally forego the shifter and go for a druid)

I am trying to figure out which combination would be better and how, (I can even possibly go master chymist later levels if I take the alchemist route), and any ideas into archetypes or other multiclassing.

therefore I would really appreciate any builds, combos or theorycrafting that can be suggested (what levels, what feats, etc)

thank you in advance!


For a Natural Attack Build that kept its armor on, I'd just be like a Tengu Warpriest and/or Unchained Barbarian.

Tengu have 2 Claw Attacks as an Alternate Racial Trait, and they all get a Bite Attack. You can get a Gore Attack as a Rage Power, and Unchained Barbarians can get those Stances that give them Attacks and Damage bonuses like every level or every other level. You can get a Hair Attack with 1 level in White Haired Witch.

You could also take mostly levels in Warpriest, doing Sacred Weapon Damage instead of your regular Damage, and self-buffing as Swift Actions to do even more damage.

Strong Jaw is awesome. I like the idea of dipping a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge as a Swift Action, increasing my Warpriest's Base Damage. I also love Druid Wildshape. Druidzilla characters can do horrendous damage.


Four levels in Weretouched is when you multiclass and never look back.

Shifter's Rush and especially Planar Wild Shape should be a priority for you, the latter being very useful since you have far more uses per day of Wild Shape than a Druid. You want a Wisdom modifier of at least +2, so going into any class that requires Intelligence or Charisma will spread your Point Buy too thin.

So Alchemist may not be the best choice, and as you've guessed it's probably smarter to just go straight Druid if you're considering multiclassing into it after four levels of Shifter.

As a Weretouched Deinonychus you have five natural attacks just from your class abilities (6 with an Animal Mask), so what you want is to start adding damage. Sneak Attack is always on the table, but the Warpriest and Inquisitor has ways to add damage more generally. It's also worth considering that four levels of Weretouched is the exact number the Boon Companion feat would boost an Animal Companion, so a pet class like Hunter and Cavalier works fine. If you're going for a mount, then Coordinated Charge is easy to trigger for two full-attacks per round.

Also, get the Rhino Hide when possible.


Wonderstell wrote:

Four levels in Weretouched is when you multiclass and never look back.

Shifter's Rush and especially Planar Wild Shape should be a priority for you, the latter being very useful since you have far more uses per day of Wild Shape than a Druid. You want a Wisdom modifier of at least +2, so going into any class that requires Intelligence or Charisma will spread your Point Buy too thin.

So Alchemist may not be the best choice, and as you've guessed it's probably smarter to just go straight Druid if you're considering multiclassing into it after four levels of Shifter.

As a Weretouched Deinonychus you have five natural attacks just from your class abilities (6 with an Animal Mask), so what you want is to start adding damage. Sneak Attack is always on the table, but the Warpriest and Inquisitor has ways to add damage more generally. It's also worth considering that four levels of Weretouched is the exact number the Boon Companion feat would boost an Animal Companion, so a pet class like Hunter and Cavalier works fine. If you're going for a mount, then Coordinated Charge is easy to trigger for two full-attacks per round.

Also, get the Rhino Hide when possible.

the prob with druid is the lower BAB though and I wont get any shifter claw boosts, which was pretty neat. I will get good spell progress though.... uuuungh this is a headache....


Agree with Wonderstell, if you want to transform and deal damage you can take 4 weretouched deinonychus shifter levels then multiclass never look back. Shifter claw damage progression is awful anyway, it's not a meaningful loss.

With 5 primary natural attacks and pounce from those 4 levels you have great flexibility and can really do whatever you feel like.

Wisdom doesn't have to be a priority stat for you, although it's certainly a viable option. Defensive instinct for 1+1/2 of your wisdom bonus? Not really worth investing in. You can multiclass into something with heavy armor proficiency and wear stoneplate. Are you really ever likely to need to spend more than 4 or 5 hours a day in your deinonychus form? Nope, especially when you take shifter's rush and can shift at a moment's notice. Some of the wild shape feats that do have wisdom reqs are nice, but you don't need them.

As mentioned if you do want to use defensive instinct you can go warpriest, inquisitor, druid, though the loss of spell progression hurts. Ninja also benefits from wisdom and sneak attack works well with 5+ natural attacks, so think about rogue and vivisectionist alchemist too.

Most martial or mostly-martial classes can work with it, but make special note of the Deepwater Rager barbarian archetype, which hugely opens up your ability to pounce and to pick your target when you do so. The archetype doesn't give much after 2nd level, but it doesn't take much either. You can multiclass again after or not. You can also get a gore attack through lesser fiend totem.


BAB doesn't matter that much to natural attack builds. Natural attacks don't get the iterative attacks so there's no loss there, and with all the attacks at full bonus accuracy isn't as much of a concern. There are even viable polymorphing wizard builds with noticeably less than a druids 3/4 BAB.


I just finished up a character that had as many natural weapons as I could possibly get. I went with deinonychus to get Talons as they are harder to get and since I kept Shifter Claws with it.


Aldrakan wrote:
Wisdom doesn't have to be a priority stat for you, although it's certainly a viable option. Defensive instinct for 1+1/2 of your wisdom bonus? Not really worth investing in. You can multiclass into something with heavy armor proficiency and wear stoneplate. Are you really ever likely to need to spend more than 4 or 5 hours a day in your deinonychus form? Nope, especially when you take shifter's rush and can shift at a moment's notice. Some of the wild shape feats that do have wisdom reqs are nice, but you don't need them.

It's mostly Planar Wild Shape that requires better wisdom, as you basically slash your uses in half for Darkvision, Energy Resistance and DR that scales with your total level. It's a good idea to keep a neutral alignment on the Good/Evil axis so that your DR works even against evil-infused attacks or the opposite.


Wonderstell wrote:
Also, get the Rhino Hide when possible.

What do you think "charge attack" means?


avr wrote:
BAB doesn't matter that much to natural attack builds. Natural attacks don't get the iterative attacks so there's no loss there, and with all the attacks at full bonus accuracy isn't as much of a concern. There are even viable polymorphing wizard builds with noticeably less than a druids 3/4 BAB.

Sure, I don't get itterative attacks but my full BAB will still be applied to my natural attacks and I want to hit dont I?.

I was thinking druid for the strong jaw, greater magic fang, animal growth or enlarged person, dunno how it functions with my current build.

My idea is to boost my size as much as possible while boosting my natural weapon damage by the same ammount.

sidenote: we will have a wizard in our party, dont know how much that will help with buffs.


Magnathor wrote:
Sure, I don't get itterative attacks but my full BAB will still be applied to my natural attacks and I want to hit dont I?

Sure, but the loss isn't that great that it wrecks your character. In any case, it's no reason to continue Shifter, as there are other full BAB fish in the class pool.

Casting classes are best for shoring up weaknesses, though - how to deal with flying or invisible enemies, for instance. Alchemist counts as a casting class for these purposes, and it's indeed a valid choice. Investigator is probably an even better choice; it's slow start is compensated by your character only having pounce with 5 attack by the time you take the first Investigator levels, and with Alchemist Discovery -> Mutagen and Quick Study, there's a lot of attack roll and damage increases going around. If you use the Jinyiwei archetype for Investigator, you don't even need Int.

Magnathor wrote:
My idea is to boost my size as much as possible while boosting my natural weapon damage by the same ammount.

Doesn't work, polymorph effects make you immune against size changing effects. There are feats like Improved Natural Attack, but those are very weak for your type of character.

For a Weretouched Shifter, your weapon base damage dice will be small. Accept it. Live with it. Your damage comes from elsewhere. 5+ attacks with pounce that all get full strength bonus, for instance. 2:1 Power Attack ratio, too.

Strong Jaw is nice, but don't overvalue it - for Deinonychus, the effect is about the same as Rage. Indeed, staying in Shifter would actually make you deal more damage than going into Druid for Strong Jaw, and you could get more damage from going into a different class. Rage alone boosts your damage by about the same amount. Of course, that's without any other spells or animal companion. Druid is not for increasing your stright up damage, but for broadening out your character.

Magnathor wrote:
I wont get any shifter claw boosts, which was pretty neat.

It's +1 average damage on two out of your five attacks (2 out of 6 with Haste) per four levels. It would be a tough challenge to find you a class that grants you less.

Wonderstell wrote:
Shifter's Rush and especially Planar Wild Shape should be a priority for you

I disagree. You don't have many uses with only 4 levels in Shifter, and I don't think the effect is that good. If you don't spend your uses on Planar Wild Shape, you don't usually need Shifter's Rush, either.

A good feat to look at is Mutated Shape - high wisdom requirement, but a free primary attack is nice.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
What do you think "charge attack" means?

As written, an attack made as part of the charge action. No sane GM will let you apply the bonus damage from Rhino Hide to every attack of a pounce, though, not when its big brother got nerved to being just the first attack. Still, RAW you do.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Also, get the Rhino Hide when possible.
What do you think "charge attack" means?

It's obviously when you knock someone out with copper pieces, which is why I'm recommending an improvised weapon build. What else could it be?


Magnathor wrote:

Greetings,

I like the idea of transforming to deal damage and I was thinking of going with a shifter for the flavour of multiple animal powers along the way (HELLO, BRAVESTARR?). The full BAB is always nice as well.

If you're looking to emulate bravestarr. The pathfinder equivalent of that is a hunter (the animal aspect ability is practically identical). If you don't care about having an animal companion you can take the Feral Hunter archetype which trades out your animal companion for wildshape and augmented summons. Hunter is only a 3/4 bab class, but as has been pointed out when going the natural attack route this is fine.


How about 4shifter/7alchemist/9 master chymist? I get brutality from chymist and some neat discoveries. (Ultra late game though)


LordKailas wrote:
Magnathor wrote:

Greetings,

I like the idea of transforming to deal damage and I was thinking of going with a shifter for the flavour of multiple animal powers along the way (HELLO, BRAVESTARR?). The full BAB is always nice as well.

If you're looking to emulate bravestarr. The pathfinder equivalent of that is a hunter (the animal aspect ability is practically identical). If you don't care about having an animal companion you can take the Feral Hunter archetype which trades out your animal companion for wildshape and augmented summons. Hunter is only a 3/4 bab class, but as has been pointed out when going the natural attack route this is fine.

I started as a happy-go-lucky bravestarr and I feel I'm going more and more like a raving lunatic altering his body... XD

Another thing to possibly point out.

The more I research it the more puzzled I am.

Should I totally forego the shifter pattern and try messing around with metamorph alchemist or goliath druid?


Magnathor wrote:
How about 4shifter/7alchemist/9 master chymist? I get brutality from chymist and some neat discoveries. (Ultra late game though)
Magnathor wrote:
Should I totally forego the shifter pattern and try messing around with metamorph alchemist or goliath druid?

Only you can answer these questions, because only you know what you actually want. Casting is king of versatility, how much of that you want is something you have to ask yourself.

There is little mechanical reason to select Alchemist/Master Chymist over Investigator. I think you're overrating Master Chymist - Furious Mutagen is weak, Growth Mutagen doesn't work, and Brutality completely pales in comparison to Studied Combat. The ability to gain the effects of a mutagen as a standard action is nice, but that's about it. It's possible to get the lost castign levels back with Prestigious Spellcaster, but that's a lot of feats for little gain; I would never take more than 3 levels in the prestige class.
Metamorph Alchemist can make one hell of a natural attack character thanks to the Deathsnatcher, but gains pounce 'only' at 9th level, and has no spellcasting/alchemy. It's an especially interesting archetype to combine with Variant Multiclassing, but even pounce, flying (all day long starting at 6th level!), and awesome damage can't hide the fact that it's a non-caster.
Goliath Druid is a bit of a trap - polymorphing into a giant is mechanically rather weak, especially for a natural attack build. Of course, it's still a full caster, and dinosaurs are good choices for wild shape and animal companion anyway. But the the main lure of the class is not something you actually ever want to do want from a mechanical viewpoint.

In the end, the goal is to have fun, and no one can tell you what you'll have the most fun with. What I can tell you is that all these options make perfectly valid characters.


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

:

Shifter's Rush and especially Planar Wild Shape should be a priority for you

I disagree. You don't have many uses with only 4 levels in Shifter, and I don't think the effect is that good. If you don't spend your uses on Planar Wild Shape, you don't usually need Shifter's Rush, either.

A good feat to look at is Mutated Shape - high wisdom requirement, but a free primary attack is nice.

I agree regarding Planar Wild Shape, although if I were getting my wisdom to 19 for Mutated Wild Shape anyway I might pick it up.

But strongly disagree about Shifter's Rush. With limited uses of Wild Shape it becomes more important to be able to shift instantly. 4 hours is plenty for combat, but it's not that long outside of combat and a weredeinonychus is...visible.

If you're travelling through wilderness, there's a good chance you'll get ambushed at some point. You don't have the wild shape to just stay combat ready the whole time, but you don't want to spend the first turn shifting. In almost all cases, Rush takes care of that. Exploring a ruin? Probably fights in there but you don't always know when. Expect (or plan) for a parley to end in violence? If you show up as a dinosaur it's gonna be a tipoff.


Depends on the build and campaign, I guess. It's certainly worthy of consideration, I definitely give you that!


Derklord wrote:
No sane GM will let you apply the bonus damage from Rhino Hide to every attack of a pounce, though, not when its big brother got nerved to being just the first attack. Still, RAW you do.

Moi? Pounce? Whatever do you mean? *batting eyelids innocently*


Derklord wrote:
Magnathor wrote:
How about 4shifter/7alchemist/9 master chymist? I get brutality from chymist and some neat discoveries. (Ultra late game though)
Magnathor wrote:
Should I totally forego the shifter pattern and try messing around with metamorph alchemist or goliath druid?

Only you can answer these questions, because only you know what you actually want. Casting is king of versatility, how much of that you want is something you have to ask yourself.

There is little mechanical reason to select Alchemist/Master Chymist over Investigator. I think you're overrating Master Chymist - Furious Mutagen is weak, Growth Mutagen doesn't work, and Brutality completely pales in comparison to Studied Combat. The ability to gain the effects of a mutagen as a standard action is nice, but that's about it. It's possible to get the lost castign levels back with Prestigious Spellcaster, but that's a lot of feats for little gain; I would never take more than 3 levels in the prestige class.
Metamorph Alchemist can make one hell of a natural attack character thanks to the Deathsnatcher, but gains pounce 'only' at 9th level, and has no spellcasting/alchemy. It's an especially interesting archetype to combine with Variant Multiclassing, but even pounce, flying (all day long starting at 6th level!), and awesome damage can't hide the fact that it's a non-caster.
Goliath Druid is a bit of a trap - polymorphing into a giant is mechanically rather weak, especially for a natural attack build. Of course, it's still a full caster, and dinosaurs are good choices for wild shape and animal companion anyway. But the the main lure of the class is not something you actually ever want to do want from a mechanical viewpoint.

In the end, the goal is to have fun, and no one...

Wise words, wise words.

Could I go with brawler regarding the the second class after the weretouched shifter?

And 2.... Could I use Kasatha race? can you use the extra hands for attacking with natural attacks? (I could even switch them out with alchemist, monstrous graft)

If I understood it correct, with weretouched hybrid form I get deinonychus 5 natural attacks, but I keep my extra set of arms?

Another idea of mine was to go either sorcerer/wizard into eldritch knight and then go for magical beast, dragonform etc at higher levels. I would have high enough BAB to support it, stats will be rolled, per the gm.


You should get to keep the extra arms. But you do not get an extra set of claws on them from Shifter. You need to ask yourself what you'll be doing with the extra arms. For my character, I got a Slam attack for one of them and put a shield on the other.


Magnathor wrote:
Could I go with brawler regarding the the second class after the weretouched shifter?

You can take the levels in Warrior if you want. I don't really see the synergy between Shifter and Brawler, though.

Magnathor wrote:

And 2.... Could I use Kasatha race? can you use the extra hands for attacking with natural attacks?

(...)
If I understood it correct, with weretouched hybrid form I get deinonychus 5 natural attacks, but I keep my extra set of arms?

Yes, with ability that add natural attacks to your arms after polymorphing - if your GM allows it. Kasatha is one of two every-wannabe-munchkin-wants-to-use-it-to-cheat-the-system races, so don't expect that too much. It's not like your 5-8 primary natural attacks aren't enough...

Magnathor wrote:
I could even switch them out with alchemist, monstrous graft

That does not work - you lose all natural attack from your pre-polymorph body. You keep your general body shape, which would include the four arms, but your body still changes.

Magnathor wrote:
Another idea of mine was to go either sorcerer/wizard into eldritch knight and then go for magical beast, dragonform etc at higher levels. I would have high enough BAB to support it, stats will be rolled, per the gm.

That's without Shifter levels, I presume? It's certainly a playable build, usually done as Wizard or Arcanist, but entirely different. Machanically best is again Deathsnatcher, i.e. the Monstrous Physique line. It's a completely different direction, away from being polymorphed most of the day, towards self-buffing first round of combat and having the polymorph only last a couple of minutes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Derklord wrote:
No sane GM will let you apply the bonus damage from Rhino Hide to every attack of a pounce, though, not when its big brother got nerved to being just the first attack. Still, RAW you do.
Moi? Pounce? Whatever do you mean? *batting eyelids innocently*

Once again, the "you" is generic.


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Derklord wrote:
No sane GM will let you apply the bonus damage from Rhino Hide to every attack of a pounce, though, not when its big brother got nerved to being just the first attack. Still, RAW you do.
Moi? Pounce? Whatever do you mean? *batting eyelids innocently*
Once again, the "you" is generic.

A Royal You.


Derklord wrote:
Yes, with ability that add natural attacks to your arms after polymorphing - if your GM allows it. Kasatha is one of two every-wannabe-munchkin-wants-to-use-it-to-cheat-the-system races, so don't expect that too much. It's not like your 5-8 primary natural attacks aren't enough...

5-8? I coun't 5, maybe 6 with mutated shape( which would be really cool aesthetically, 2-headed epicness) am I missing something?

How can I add natural attacks to my arms after polymorphing? and would they be primary?

Derklord wrote:


That's without Shifter levels, I presume? It's certainly a playable build, usually done as Wizard or Arcanist, but entirely different. Machanically best is again Deathsnatcher, i.e. the Monstrous Physique line. It's a completely different direction, away from being polymorphed most of the day, towards self-buffing first round of combat and having the polymorph only last a couple of minutes.

Ye I could guess its completely different, but I like that idea. no need to be polymorphed 24/7.


Derklord wrote:
I don't really see the synergy between Shifter and Brawler, though.

I could chuck in styles, or feats that would help my natural attakcs perhaps? it would make some sense fluff-wise since we're talking about a hybrid humanoid.

Finally, I gotta say it, thanks a lot for your ideas and your clarifications!


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Shifter's Rush and especially Planar Wild Shape should be a priority for you

I disagree. You don't have many uses with only 4 levels in Shifter, and I don't think the effect is that good. If you don't spend your uses on Planar Wild Shape, you don't usually need Shifter's Rush, either.

A good feat to look at is Mutated Shape - high wisdom requirement, but a free primary attack is nice.

I disdisagree.

I'm guessing you aren't aware that Shifters add their wisdom modifier to their number of uses per day? Since you're proposing a feat that implies the Shifter has at least 8 uses per day, which is plenty enough for Planar Wild Shape.
And I'd appreciate if you elaborated on why you don't find DR/Energy Resistance/Darkvision good enough to spend a feat on. It's a great boon to your defenses, and I'm honestly very surprised you'd provide Mutated Shape as an example of a good feat compared to it.

Spending more resources on offense to get one additional attack when you should have around seven attacks by the time you meet the wisdom prerequisite is curious.


Magnathor wrote:
How can I add natural attacks to my arms after polymorphing? and would they be primary?

Easiest way is the Chaos Reigns feat, it's probably what Heather referred to.

Magnathor wrote:
5-8? I coun't 5, maybe 6 with mutated shape( which would be really cool aesthetically, 2-headed epicness) am I missing something?

6th from Mutated Shape, 7th gore from Lesser Fiend Totem/Spirit Oni Mask/Helm of the Mammoth Lord, 8th from Haste.

Magnathor wrote:
I could chuck in styles, or feats that would help my natural attacks perhaps?

There aren't really many feats that do that. Most style feats especially don't work with natural attacks. I mean, sure, you could grab Dedicated Adversary for a +2 to attack and damage rolls... or you could be a Barbarian instead and do the same as a free action rather than a move action.

It's not that you wouldn't find uses for Martial Flexibility, it's that you'd gain nothing else form the class, and Martial Flexibility at half sdtrength just doesn't cut it. It's basically the same reason we suggested multiclass out of Shifter in the first place - other classes simply grant more.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
A Royal You.

Thou darest to adress us like a commoner instead of with "your majesty, the king"? Off with his head!

In case you really don't know how it works, generic you.


Derklord wrote:

There aren't really many feats that do that. Most style feats especially don't work with natural attacks. I mean, sure, you could grab Dedicated Adversary for a +2 to attack and damage rolls... or you could be a Barbarian instead and do the same as a free action rather than a move action.

It's not that you wouldn't find uses for Martial Flexibility, it's that you'd gain nothing else form the class, and Martial Flexibility at half sdtrength just doesn't cut it. It's basically the same reason we suggested multiclass out of Shifter in the first place - other classes simply grant more.

so barbarian seems like a more realistic solution? or what else? investigator looked like a nice flavorfull alternative but looks like a lot of dead-time during combat to pick a different studied target, although that first full attack pounce should be massive.

Theoretically, I could go druid for the buffs and general wildshape uses

Could I go dragon disciple? (stat boosts are okeyish, the overall dragony-scaly appearance works well with deinonychus, the breath I guess wont be as strong not full sorcerer levels and not huge charisma, I will get wings tho, but the dragon form feels like overwritting the whole shifter start)

Any other ideas?


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
A Royal You.

Thou darest to adress us like a commoner instead of with "your majesty, the king"? Off with his head!

In case you really don't know how it works, generic you.

Oddly enough 'you' was originally a plural and also the way you'd refer to a social superior. The Royal We is a vestige of that. Thee/thou was for equals and inferiors. Quakers refused to use you in an attempt to remove enforced respect from the language; I'm not sure if the actual results were a total success or a total failure for them.


Derklord wrote:
Doesn't work, polymorph effects make you immune against size changing effects. There are feats like Improved Natural Attack, but those are very weak for your type of character.

pretty far-fetched but....

how about abyssal bloodrager on top of that?

Quote:
At 1st level, you grow claws while bloodraging. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack, using your full base attack bonus

Doesn't mention which set of hands, wink wink.

and 2

Quote:

Demonic Bulk (Su)

At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.

would that apply to my shifter form? I mean it's not a spell or spell-like ability.


Yes, I used Chaos Reigns for Slam. I also used Mutated Shape to get Sting.


Magnathor wrote:
Quote:

Demonic Bulk (Su)

At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
would that apply to my shifter form? I mean it's not a spell or spell-like ability.

Many rules refer to spells because spells are the default form of magic powers. There's no separate set of rules to refer to for supernatural or spell-like abilities in most cases.


Magnathor wrote:
so barbarian seems like a more realistic solution?

It's an easy choice for more martial prowess, but offers little else. Again, only you know what you want, and you know better than us how your campaign will be like. There are campaigns where you won't get far without an ability to combat flying or invisible enemies, in such a game, Barbarian may be a poor choice. In other games, almost all your combats may be on even, firm ground against enemies without many magical abilities, for that type of game, I would consider at least a dip into Barbarian or Bloodrager, possibly staying in that class.

Magnathor wrote:
investigator looked like a nice flavorfull alternative but looks like a lot of dead-time during combat to pick a different studied target, although that first full attack pounce should be massive.

I actually already adressed that, although I didn't link it - Quick Study turns studied combat into a swift action, meaning if you don't need those (or immediate actions) for anything else, you can study a new target every round. You wouldn't even need a positive int score if you use Jinyiwei. The other talent I mentioned was Alchemist Discovery, which allows you to grab Mutagen. You wouldn't be allow to get the mutagen improvements (Greater/Grand Mutagen), unlike an Alchemist, but that'd be 16th and 20th total level, respectively, anyway.

A regular wildshape-centric Druid works very well, of course. It has some issues with AC (and talking!) and starts slower (pounce at 6th level, only 3 attacks before 8th level), but it's a full caster and has a full level animal companion. Mutated Shape works, and since you turn into something without hands, Chaos Reigns actually grants a natural attack without occupying a limb (body slam or headbutt, I envision).

Dragon Disciple with a base of Shifter 4/Sorcerer 1 works fairly well, even though Dragon Bite and Dragon Form would be redundant, and the Breath Weapon is only useful for fighting swarms, or hordes of cannon fodder. One big issue is that your casting keys of charisma, and there's nothing you can do about that (Empyreal bloodline is incompatible with Dragon Disciple). Unless you spend a bunch of feats on Prestigious Spellcaster, you get spell levels actually a level after Investigator (2nd level spells at 9th overall level instead of 8th, for instance).

Another natural attack build that jumps to mind is Beastkin Berserker Barbarian.

Magnathor wrote:
Doesn't mention which set of hands, wink wink.

Yes, that ability, Sorcerer's Draconic Bloodline, Feral Mutagen, Lesser Beast totem, all these abilities "add natural attacks to your arms after polymorphing" as I've put it, they all work after polymorphing, and four arms can host four claws, meaning you could use two of these abilities (including Shifter's Claws). It's a unique advantage of the Kasatha, and a reason why that race is a favourite of munchkins - it cheats the normal limitations that PCs are supposed to have.

In Inner Sea Races, Kasatha is marked **, "Races marked with two asterisks (**) are considered monstrous races, and likely offer significant advantages over the core races due to improved mobility, higher attribute bonuses, or unusual immunities. GMs should review these races carefully before approving them for their campaigns." ISR pg. 236

Not just an "advanced race", which already should be reviewed by the GM, but a "monstrous race". If everyone plays humans, dwarfs, and elfs, and you play a mounstrous, four-armed race from another planet because half a dozen natural attacks at 5th level isn't enough for you, even if the GM allows it, your fellow players might not like it. Definitely talk to the entire group before the first session!


Wonderstell wrote:
I'm guessing you aren't aware that Shifters add their wisdom modifier to their number of uses per day? Since you're proposing a feat that implies the Shifter has at least 8 uses per day, which is plenty enough for Planar Wild Shape.

Wis mod to uses yes, but for some reasons, I though it was half level. I still don't like permament spell resistance (although it's pretty low), but I withdraw my opposition.


Magnathor wrote:

so barbarian seems like a more realistic solution? or what else?

I'm gonna re-up my suggestion of the Deepwater Rager barbarian archetype here, because its Spiraling Charge ability is extremely good for a character with pounce. It mostly gets around the worst enemy of charge builds - "the dark priest/vile alchemist/corrupt noble stands behind an altar/his work station/his bodyguards".


Derklord wrote:
I actually already adressed that, although I didn't link it - Quick Study turns studied combat into a swift action, meaning if you don't need those (or immediate actions) for anything else, you can study a new target every round. You wouldn't even need a positive int score if you use Jinyiwei. The other talent I mentioned was Alchemist Discovery, which allows you to grab Mutagen. You wouldn't be allow to get the mutagen improvements (Greater/Grand Mutagen), unlike an Alchemist, but that'd be 16th and 20th total level, respectively, anyway.

So basically I can spam studied strike on my pounces/full attacks, and with alchemy I can get the mutagen to up my strength a bit more?

Also, kasatha race isn't perimitted (thank god, I was feeling a bit too much) BUT lizardfolk is, so I could add a tail over here!

trying to figure out if bloodrager pure or bloodrager dragon disciple or investigator would grant me the biggest boost

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Weretouched shifter natural attack build help All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.