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I second Combat Reflexes. Aside from the extra attack(s), it also lets you make AoOs while flat-footed (so who cares about perception checks od Initiative).
GOBLIN CLEAVER (and maybe ORC HEWER).
DEDICATED ADVERSARY (great if you know you'll be facing the same enemy a lot, though if you do dip Ranger you don't need this).
You could take Vital Strike if you're planning on making use of Overhand Chop.
Or you could take CLEAVING FINISH and/or HURTFUL to make more use of Backswing after level 7 (if you're going for Hurtful, take CORNUGON SMASH).
On the defensive side you could look at SHIELD FOCUS and SHIELD BRACE.
Iron Will is probably something you'll want eventually as well.
I've goven you a lot of choices, you almost certainly don't need all of them. The only ones that I'd say are must-haves are Combat Reflexes and (eventually) Iron Will.
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@OP: You have a build that's easy to optimize. You're already doing pretty well. Those who mention Combat Reflexes and Power Attack are on the mark. Just those two feats, combined with a reach weapon, make for a powerful melee warrior.
You have a plan to inflict a lot of damage during your own turn. Consider what you can do to also inflict damage during the GM's turn. At low levels this can roughly double your damage output. That means learning and optimizing reach tactics. Note that this approach, which your Dwarven War hammer perfectly equips you for, can also protect and defend your squishier allies. The extreme and optimized version, which maximizes AoOs, also gets large. There's even a guide to the build you have chosen.
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I'm new to pathfinder and made a Dwarf Two-Handed fighter. I'm looking for a guide on what feats to take to maximize damage and...Maximizing damage comes at the expense of other things which are often just as important. (I.e., THF forfeits all Armor Training and Bravery; so no Sash of the War Champion or Advanced Armor Training goodies for you.)
My DM stated that we will mostly be fighting goblins. I am using a Dwarven long hammer as my weapon. I already have the toughness feat from Unstoppable as a trait.Unstoppable dwarves are pretty easy to stop when they fail a save because they forfeited Hardy (and thus also gave up access to the Glory of Old trait and the Steel Soul feat, all of which would have had them rocking +5 to all saves). With a 17 Con and fighter AC, you should be plenty good for hitpoints unless the GM is stingy with treasure and you're having trouble upgrading armor and shield.
the character he uses brute force as much as possible, so single target damage is ideal. Currently I am level 3 and have Power Attack, Cleave, and Weapon Focus.
As a dwarf fighter, you're short a feat (unless you just leveled, and that's why you're here).
Per your GM's not-so-subtle hinting, the feat Goblin Cleaver should be your pick. (Now if he doesn't throw goblins at you "mostly", you give him the big ol' stink-eye.)
In terms of point-buy, that's 21pt-buy, or a point better than you'd get in PFS. ...of course I wouldn't go with five odd stats, but that can't be helped. (Raise Str at 4th, Con at 8th, and whatever at 12th.)My abilities scores are
Str 17
Dex 13
Con 17
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 4 (I had a really bad roll)
Also I just leveled up to level 3 and my DM is allowing us to switch up anything we want till level 4 since we are all new.
Your GM is a sweetheart (although I'm assuming "anything" doesn't include those three 13s and a 4).
How is your GM doing hitpoints? (Full 1st, then half & round-up other levels -- or do you have to rolls those, too?)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
dwarf, no racial archetype (*keep* Hardy)
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Glory of Old
01 Fighter1* [combat feat: Power Attack], Steel Soul
02 Fighter2 [combat feat: Cleave]
03 Fighter3 Goblin Cleaver
04 Fighter4 [combat feat: Combat Reflexes]
(*I prefer core archetype to keep AT and Bravery, etc, as it's the best in the long-run, but the choice is yours.)
If your GM never asks you to make saving-throws, then you're perfectly good not giving a crap about them, and mostly keep what you have.
I usually don't take Weapon Focus because I use multiple weapons.
For ranged weaponry, I'd grab three or four javelins. Let the casters deal with artillery duels at longer ranges. With a Dex of 13, you're not much of an archer, so don't blow any feats toward archery, or spend unseemly amounts of gold on only-occasionally-used bows. Maybe buy a bunch of Tanglefoot bags if the GM is making it rain money.
Tactics: drink a 50gp potion of Enlarge Person as a move-action at the beginning of Combat, "grow" 5' in a desired direction, 5' another step, then standard-action hack, and then Cleave. Wreck stuff in your huge threatened zone, especially creatures that are smaller (and by becoming big, you made them smaller!).
First belt upgrade: no, not strength, no, not constitution, --dexterity, because it fuels your AoOs that you'll be making with a 20' reach polearm.
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I have been considering Dwarven hatred style, for the +2 attack rolls and dmg vs goblins then getting goblin cleaver or is goblin cleaver better?If you pursue the getting-big tactic I described above (which is always great for polearm guys), Goblin Cleaver is way, way better because your opponents don't actually have to be goblins. Anything smaller than your now-large butt will do.
I know nothing about upgrading armor or shields, my armor is a +6 ac right now with a +1 for dex. I did not think I could use a shield if im using two handed fighter archtype.
Skip the shield for now; get that full-plate. (Even better would be that 3rd-edition super-heavy stuff that was AC10/Dex0; I forget what it was called (fortress plate??) , but it was awesome for dwarves who didn't care about being flat-footed.)
BTW, one reason to keep Armor Training (as a core fighter) is access to the Master Armorer advanced AT option. Basically, you get to start making your own stuff half-priced, which is not a bad deal at all (unless you've a party wizard who intends to do it).
Will it be manageable to do AoO, Cleave, and power swings and be able to do all 3?Absolutely. (And this is another reason to get big: +2 strength from size-bonus offsets some of the sting of losing attack-bonus by Power Attacking.)
I was looking into things like vital strike, but if cleave will be better for goblins than that could work too.
You can't get Vital Strike until 6th-level anyway.
I was looking for a choice for another feat because i had just leveled, I have been considering Dwarven hatred style, for the +2 attack rolls and dmg vs goblins then getting goblin cleaver or is goblin cleaver better?
Dearven Hatred Style gives you +1 to hit and +2 damage. This is a very good feat if you know you'll be facing these enemies a lot. You'll hit more often and deal more damage on a hit
Goblin Cleaver basically lets you use Cleave more often. Normally Cleave isn't considered a great feat because you can only use it when your enemies are standing next to one another. With Goblind Cleaver you can use it when they're standing within 20 or so feet of one another. Cleaving finish is more or less the same (but has a different trigger).
Both options will (hopefully) give you more successful attacks, so it's up to you.
I know nothing about upgrading armor or shields, my armor is a +6 ac right now with a +1 for dex. I did not think I could use a shield if im using two handed fighter archtype.
First priority should probably be to get full-plate armour. You're correct that you can't usually use a shield with a two-handed weapon, but the Shield Brace feat lets you get around that. You would take a penalty to your attack rolls equal to the shield's Armour Check Penalty (ACP), but if you can get a large wooden shield made of Darkwood it will have an ACP of 0. The initial +3 AC is good, but the cheaper upgrades as you level will also make a difference in later levels.
Once again though, go for heavier armour before you worry about this - Shield Brace is good, but not necessary.
Will it be manageable to do AoO, Cleave, and power swings and be able to do all 3? I was looking into things like vital strike, but if cleave will be better for goblins then that could work too.
Both Vital strike and Cleave use special standard actions, so you can't use them in the same turn. Otherwise yes everything should work in tendem.
And this is another reason to get big: +2 strength from size-bonus offsets some of the sting of losing attack-bonus by Power Attacking.
No it doesn't, it merely offsets the -1 on attack rolls from being large.
Both Vital strike and Cleave use special standard actions, so you can't use them in the same turn.
That's a gross oversimplification. Vital Strike doesn't use any action of its own, it's a triggered ability activated when you use the standard attack action. The result is the same for those two, but there are a bunch of other things that interact with the attack action. It's an important part of the game that, in my opinion, should be understood, and not bypassed.
As you can see from the word "when", Vital Strike is a triggered ability, and the trigger is using the standard attack action. Any time a feat, class feature, general rule et al. states an action type for an ability, it's not the attack action. Any ability that says "standard action", "move action" "swift action", "immediate action", "full-attack action", or "full round action" uses a different action and thus doesn't trigger Vital Strike. Attacks of Opportunity don't use an action, and thus obviously aren't attack actions either. Especially note that while the 'attack action' is a type of 'standard action', the opposite is not true (a 'standard action' with an attack is not the 'attack action' unless explicitly called out). If something does not use the exact phrase "attack action" (without a "full" in front), it's not the attack action. Likewise, while a 'full-attack action' is a type of 'full round action', the opposite is not true. Meanwhile, "full attack", "full-attack action" and (rarer) "full attack action" all mean the same (so pounce works with everything that says "as a full-attack action").
Lots of good advice regarding reach builds, shield brace, better armor, and ways to increase your damage. Not much that I can add on that front but you should look at shoring up your saves with the feat steel soul and glory of old trait as Slim Jim suggested.
Shield Brace definitely is a good idea to add.
Shield Brace, while not a bad feat per se, does have limitations:
* You use your two-handed spear or polearm in one hand (so, forfeiting 1.5x strength and 1.5x Power Attack). -- It doesn't explicitly state that in the text, but it's in an errata floating around out there (I know it's been ruled this way in PFS).* It also requires a mithral shield, or armor-training, if you don't want the shield's ACP subtracted from your attack-bonus.
* It has a tax-feat (Shield Focus, which is a good feat), meaning it's an annoyance to cram in at low-level.
Better idea: get a light quickdraw shield, or just wear a buckler (eating -1 attacks while wielding your longhammer in both hands). and save two feats.
How exactly do I get Glory of Old, is it different than Hardy if it is, how so? Does it replace other traits?
It's not an "Alternative Race Trait" (which is what you've been seeing while reading about Dwarves), but a general character trait. In PFS, and many/most APs, every character starts with two at character creation (no more than one from any category, i.e., "combat" traits, etc). Home-gamers new to GM'ing are sometimes unaware of traits, so you'll have to diplomatic in urging him to permit you to have them. (I'm a firm believer in not asking, just building your character with a few, and saying "I didn't know you didn't allow traits!" a month down the road if the GM notices and queries you about it.)
Glory of Old amplifies Hardy to be +3 rather than +2. The Steel Soul feats buffs it by a further +2.
You don't "pick" these; the core dwarf automatically comes with all of them. (If your GM told you that you can only take two, then he's, uhm, really green on how to play.)If it helps the traits I picked were...
Defensive training
Hardy
Stability
Stone-cunning
Hatred
Craftsman - I thought it be fun to try and craft stuff.
Craftsman worthless unless you keep Armor Training for your fighter, and decide to craft magic armor via the Advanced Armor Training:Master Armorer. (Don't spend any of your precious skill-points on Craft or Profession skills, as that is unnecessary if you're a Master Armorer.)
--But I'd take it. (The racial trait is replaces, Greed, is equally worthless.)
Shield Brace, while not a bad feat per se, does have limitations:
* You use your two-handed spear or polearm in one hand (so, forfeiting 1.5x strength and 1.5x Power Attack). -- It doesn't explicitly state that in the text, but it's in an errata floating around out there (I know it's been ruled this way in PFS).
That's not official. It's nothing more than a houserule. PFS changes are not official rules.
Glory of Old amplifies Hardy to be +3 rather than +2. The Steel Soul feats buffs it by a further +2.
Glory of Old is independent from Hardy - which is good, because that way it stacks with Steel Soul. The feat replaces the bonus from Hardy (instead of simply granting a +2 racial bonus, I presume the writer didn't actually know the rules well). I'm not sure if the distinction is relevant, but you don't actually apply the Hardy bonus if you have Steel Soul, you only apply the bonus from teh feat. The trait bonus from Glory of Old is, of course, applied either way (even if you trade out Hardy).
That's not official. It's nothing more than a houserule. PFS changes are not official rules.Shield Brace, while not a bad feat per se, does have limitations:
* You use your two-handed spear or polearm in one hand (so, forfeiting 1.5x strength and 1.5x Power Attack). -- It doesn't explicitly state that in the text, but it's in an errata floating around out there (I know it's been ruled this way in PFS).
If you swing a longhammer while using a heavy shield and try to claim 1.5x strength and PA, any reasonably-paying-attention GM is going to ask you which prehensile tail you're holding the shield with.
<shrug>
If you can get away with it, ya got away with it -- but it's ridiculous.
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If you swing a longhammer while using a heavy shield and try to claim 1.5x strength and PA, any reasonably-paying-attention GM is going to ask you which prehensile tail you're holding the shield with.
Only those who don't speak much english. Shield Brace. It's braced onto your arm. The whole concept of the feat is that you don't hold in in your hand, but have it strapped to your forearm.
Indeed, it's your 'version' that doesn't make sense, because it's a two-handed weapon, why would you suddenly be able to wield it in one hand? And if you can wield it in one hand, why does the ACP apply to attaks made with it, when the shield is on a different arm?
The shield is strapped to your forearm. Your hand is holding the shield's handle. You're bracing your normally-unusable-with-one-hand two-handed weapon against the shield. Which is nice, except....If you swing a longhammer while using a heavy shield and try to claim 1.5x strength and PA, any reasonably-paying-attention GM is going to ask you which prehensile tail you're holding the shield with.Only those who don't speak much english. Shield Brace. It's braced onto your arm. The whole concept of the feat is that you don't hold in in your hand, but have it strapped to your forearm.
"....Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon....
"...This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands....But we're not using the weapon in two hands with Shield Brace. So, no 1.5x soup for us. By RAW, the feat doesn't grant it. We might have nominal control of the weapon with Shield Brace, but we don't have leverage from an additional paw with opposable thumbs to transfer excess power.
Indeed, it's your 'version' that doesn't make sense, because it's a two-handed weapon, why would you suddenly be able to wield it in one hand? And if you can wield it in one hand, why does the ACP apply to attaks made with it, when the shield is on a different arm?
Because that's what the feat does say it does.
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Pathfinder Player Companion: Armor Master's Handbook: Page 18—When using the Shield Brace feat, treat the polearm or spear as a one-handed weapon. More specifically, when calculating the damage the weapon deals, it uses your Strength bonus instead of 1.5 times your Strength bonus, and it counts as a one- handed weapon when determining extra damage from the Power Attack feat. You may use Two-Weapon Fighting and other feats as if the polearm were a one handed weapon.
(First issued July 19, 2016.)
They're actually giving a pretty good deal here: you lose out on the 1.5x (which Shield Brace never said you received in the first place), but the wording has been parsed to mean your two-hander-in-one-hand is now eligible for TWF. Which means that Shield Slam options are green-lit for those Enlarged polearm guys tired of opponents crowding inside their "donut". Is your mark adjacent? Declare TWF, slam + free bull rush them back, 5' back yourself, then smack 'em with your reach-weapon (and also enjoy them being in your AoO zone again).
Because that's what the feat does say it does.
Bull s@%%. The feat says absolutely nothing about wielding the weapon differently. The word "wield" doesn't appear in the description. The word "hand" only appears in the description in the phrase "two-handed". There isn't a single word in the description that supports your position.
That makes you objectively wrong.
At this stage it's a moot point.
BluePikachu - aso your GM how they would rule on Shield Brace, as that's the only opinion that matters. Then once you have a ruling you can decide if you want to take the feat or not.
(Keeping all the context in one post.)
~ ~ ~Bull s~*!. The feat says absolutely nothing about wielding the weapon differently. The word "wield" doesn't appear in the description. The word "hand" only appears in the description in the phrase "two-handed". There isn't a single word in the description that supports your position. That makes you objectively wrong.Indeed, it's your 'version' that doesn't make sense, because it's a two-handed weapon, why would you suddenly be able to wield it in one hand? And if you can wield it in one hand, why does the ACP apply to attaks made with it, when the shield is on a different arm?Because that's what the feat does say it does.
"....Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon....
"...This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands....
Benefit(s): You can use a two-handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with which you are proficient. The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon.You must be "using" the shield. How do you "use" a shield? You equip it. In a hand.
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
The RAW text of Shield Brace does not confer usage of a weapon in two hands (necessary for unlocking 1.5x multipliers sans some other ability) while simultaneously having a shield equipped in one of those hands (that being necessary for the Shield Brace feat to be applicable).
@BluePikachu
There's quite a lot of content for Pathfinder. Has your GM said anything about which books are available for you to use?
A Mutation Warrior Fighter would deal more single-target damage than the Two-handed Fighter archetype, in addition to increasing your attack bonus and allowing flight later on.
If you combine it with the High Guardian archetype you'd get a lot of Attacks of Opportunity, which means more dead enemies when they try to approach you and better defenses when you take the Cut from the Air feat later on.
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Better idea: get a light quickdraw shield, or just wear a buckler (eating -1 attacks while wielding your longhammer in both hands). and save two feats.
You do lose the AC bonus from a buckler until your next turn if you use the buckler hand to hold a weapon, so it would only give the penalty and no benefit. And while Quickdraw Shield + Quickdraw (the feat) is a combo that works, it would mean losing the reach property between your turns since you're unable to wield your longhammer while holding your shield.
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They're actually giving a pretty good deal here: you lose out on the 1.5x (which Shield Brace never said you received in the first place), but the wording has been parsed to mean your two-hander-in-one-hand is now eligible for TWF. Which means that Shield Slam options are green-lit for those Enlarged polearm guys tired of opponents crowding inside their "donut". Is your mark adjacent? Declare TWF, slam + free bull rush them back, 5' back yourself, then smack 'em with your reach-weapon (and also enjoy them being in your AoO zone again).
TWF with a polearm and a shield will probably not end up well.
If you attack with the shield first you make it your main hand, which means all your iteratives must be with the shield. So after you've pushed the enemy out of your shield-range and made that one attack in your polearm-range you're unable to continue your full-attack.
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For the record, I agree with Derklord on the Shield Brace discussion.
Let's not treat Society nerfs as errata or intent, especially when Unhindering Shield exists. The feat from the same book and page as Shield Brace, that allows you to use a buckler and gain the Shield Bonus no matter what you use your two hands for.
***
TWF with a polearm and a shield will probably not end up well.
If you attack with the shield first you make it your main hand, which means all your iteratives must be with the shield. So after you've pushed the enemy out of your shield-range and made that one attack in your polearm-range you're unable to continue your full-attack.
Well, it depends... does "TWF with a polearm and a shield" nesessarily include making shield bashs? If yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you. If no, I think a Shielded Staff Style build could work pretty well. The high feat cost is doable on a Fighter, and with Shielded Staff Master, you don't even suffer the double weapon cost of regular TWF (past +1/+1 on your double weapon). I'd spend a feat for EWP to use a Boarding Gaff, which not only has reach, but also the trip feature - especially useful for Shielded Staff Ambush (make your AoO agains an approaching enemy, and then make a trip attempt via the feat).
I had considered Mutagen fighter, but it seemed a bit confusing to me. This is my first campaign so I wanted something fairly simple.
It's actually pretty simple. You get a mutagen (more strength!), and can select some discoveries in place of bonus feats - the only ones you need are Wings, and Greater/Grand Mutagen. As it's the best way to get flight on a Fighter, which is always a highly desirable thing, the archetype is something every Fighter needs to have a good reason not to take. It even improves your AC!
It's actually in a way simpler than going without it, because that way, you can simply fly towards enemies you can't reach, and use your regular weapon against them.
I could work in a reason why he decided to pick up a shield, but if it overall lowers my power it might not fit his character.
A good guideline is that unless you have a class feature that doesn't work with two-handed weapons, you use two-handed weapons, at least on strength-based builds. Killing enemies quicker oftem provides better defense than the few points of AC a shield grants. If you want to keep it simple, ignore everything in this thread about how to use a shield.
Having a good will save is definitely more important than getting shield AC; although Dwarfs have a signigifanctly easier time there thanks to the mentioned Glory of Old and Steel Soul.
FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO ARGUE ABOUT SHIELD BRACE, I MADE A NEW THREAD.
CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE THE ARGUMENT
(Feel free to keep arguing, but let's get this thread back on track)
My DM, said all things under the Core Rules in "The Trove" are fair game.
That looks like every 1st party book, so everyone's advice should be relevant.
I had considered Mutagen fighter, but it seemed a bit confusing to me. This is my first campaign so I wanted something fairly simple.
Hm. Yeah it is definitely easier to not have an ability score buff, since you have to recalculate a lot of stats. But that's what Barbarians do every fight and that's a pretty easy class to play. You could write down the end result of activating mutagen somewhere, preferably on the scrap paper you should have for scribbling down damage and conditions.
+2 to Attack, +3 to Damage
+2 Natural AC, +2 to CMD
+2 to Swim and Climb skill checks, -1 to Intelligence-based skills
The Two-Handed Fighter archetype basically only gives you +2 damage by now, and you'd need a Strength Score of 22 to get just as much damage as Mutation Warrior gives you.
Even if you're not interested in Mutation Warrior you might want to take a better archetype than the Two-Handed Fighter.
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It's actually pretty simple. You get a mutagen (more strength!), and can select some discoveries in place of bonus feats - the only ones you need are Wings, and Greater/Grand Mutagen.
Hm? You get to choose between certain discoveries at lv 7, 11, 15, and 19, replacing your Armor Training increases and Armor Mastery. You do not lose any Bonus Feats.
I had considered Mutagen fighter, but it seemed a bit confusing to me. This is my first campaign so I wanted something fairly simple.Hm. Yeah it is definitely easier to not have an ability score buff, since you have to recalculate a lot of stats. But that's what Barbarians do every fight and that's a pretty easy class to play. You could write down the end result of activating mutagen somewhere, preferably on the scrap paper you should have for scribbling down damage and conditions.
+2 to Attack, +3 to Damage
+2 Natural AC, +2 to CMD
+2 to Swim and Climb skill checks, -1 to Intelligence-based skills
For my Bloodrager I have a two character sheets: a regular sheet and my "Rage Page". This lets me just switch sheets when my stats change.
I don't know if you have to go that far (Wondersell's scrap looks like it has everything you need), but being able to switch sheets and ignore the math is pretty convenient. Essentially I'm doing the maths between sessions so I don't slow the game down by doing it mid-session. Whatever works for you.
Reguarding the complicated classes: While it seems simple to us it's a lot to learn on top of learning just the rules. Also, while the Mutagen Warrior is more powerful, it's not an important enough difference for the game they'll likely be playing.
Having said that, I think learning some of the more complicated aspects is probably going to help you more in the long run. Most classes in Pathfinder have some abilities that can only be used x/day. By learning how this works with something simple (like a Mutagen, as opposed to learning every Cleric spell) you can get used to one of the basic Pathfinder mechanics early on, which will make the rest of the gsme easier.
TLDR: It might be good in the long run to play something slightly more complicated in order to learn the rules a little better. Don't worry too mutch if this is your first character, just play what you want to play.
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Yeah it is definitely easier to not have an ability score buff, since you have to recalculate a lot of stats. But that's what Barbarians do every fight and that's a pretty easy class to play. You could write down the end result of activating mutagen somewhere, preferably on the scrap paper you should have for scribbling down damage and conditions.
For my Bloodrager I have a two character sheets: a regular sheet and my "Rage Page". This lets me just switch sheets when my stats change.
If I may suggest an alternative: A while ago I started creating cheat sheets for my characters, and that kinda turned into making such cheat sheets for others as well. It's basically a condensed version of the character sheet, without the irrelevant full calculations, but with multiple entries for things such as attack rolls, for different combinaiton of situational bonuses. Here are some examples. I would advise every player to create such cheat sheets, they make gameplay so much smoother and quicker you won't believe it. I literally stopped printing updated full character sheets and only bring such a one-page cheat sheet.
The third sheet in the above link is what I did for some pregen characters for my current campaign, with the goal to include feat and ability text as well. For a higher level character that can get a bit lengthy, but it's probably a good idea for a beginner.
Hm? You get to choose between certain discoveries at lv 7, 11, 15, and 19, replacing your Armor Training increases and Armor Mastery. You do not lose any Bonus Feats.
I shouldn't write stuff by memory for an archetype I've never actually played... sorry! I should have noticed that the two things in my head ("first gained at 7th level" and "instead of bonus feats") can't both be correct...
Thanks, I'll try it out.
For Rage I like the character sheet (I usually use double-sided 1-page character sheets anyway) because I can do things like cross out all the skills I can't use, change HP etc.
But I'll definitely try this out - anything that makes this quicker and easier is good.
It's from the weapon master's handbook.
It's a "Style feat" which has nothing to do with Ranger styles and bonus feats. Style feats are more of a monk thing usually (crane style/dragon style/etc). They're small feat-trees that focus on a specific aspect of combat (unarmed damage/grappling/fighting defensively/etc), and you can only enter one style at a time. So you couldn't use Dwarven Hatred Style at the same time as Crane Style, although if you wanted to have both for different situations you could.
I MADE A NEW THREAD.
Once upon a time this would be appreciated (and occasionally enforced), but nobody "official" is making rulings for PF1 anymore (i.e., dev responses in Rule threads), and haven't been for some time. To the extent that Paizo even addresses errata (beyond grammatical) in the past few years, it has come almost entirely in the form of clarifications distributed through Pathfinder Society (since PFS is the largest officially-supported campaign in the game). The PFS clarification on Shield Brace came three and a half years ago, and it is currently the most quasi-official ruling of any type since it's the only ruling of any type.
~ ~ ~
The "handedness" of a weapon is not what is at issue, it's how many hands you're using. If you're using only one (because the other is gripping a light/heavy/tower shield's handle), then you're not using the weapon in two hands.The RAW text of Shield Brace does not confer usage of a weapon in two hands....I have shown that the feat descrption does not change handedness. You have not shown that to be untrue. Claiming that it does say so is a pure lie.
You're quoting rule and rule while ignoring that a feat can overrule those.Shield Brace overrules the requirement of needing two hands to use a two-handed weapon. But you still have one hand on a light/heavy/tower shield, and one hand on a weapon. The feat is not giving you a noodle limb that snakes around the shield handle and then comes out and grips the weapon too.
If you want to make an argument, base it on the feat's description. But you can't do that, can you? Because the feat description only supports what I'm saying.
The feat "supports" its labeling: You're using your shield to brace a two-handed weapon held in one hand, and unlock the ability to make attacks with it that you would ordinarily be denied. There's nothing in there about "using" the weapon with "two hands" (to get 1.5x).
Except when you're flat-footed at the beginning of the combat (as fighters frequently are) and would rather have the AC bonus at that point, or if you're a "buckler build" pursuing Unhindering Shield.Better idea: get a light quickdraw shield, or just wear a buckler (eating -1 attacks while wielding your longhammer in both hands). and save two feats.You do lose the AC bonus from a buckler until your next turn if you use the buckler hand to hold a weapon, so it would only give the penalty and no benefit.
(And while Quickdraw Shield + Quickdraw (the feat) is a combo that works, it would mean losing the reach property between your turns since you're unable to wield your longhammer while holding your shield.Well, aside from Shield Brace, since a light quickdraw shield would be an applicable shield for that feat.
This is where the magic happens: While your opponent is crowding you, you either can't use your polearm (some GMs rule that way), or you're -4 to an improvised-weapon attack with its probably non-magical haft. So, in highest-to-lowest order, your shield attack would come first. But, after a Shield Slam (plus free Bull Rush, and any necessary 5' on your part between attacks), the enemy is now in the sweet spot of the business end of your polearm, its penalty goes away, and it is then then next-highest attack-bonus in the sequence.They're (PFS Shield Brace clarification is) actually giving a pretty good deal here: you lose out on the 1.5x (which Shield Brace never said you received in the first place), but the wording has been parsed to mean your two-hander-in-one-hand is now eligible for TWF. Which means that Shield Slam options are green-lit for those Enlarged polearm guys tired of opponents crowding inside their "donut". Is your mark adjacent? Declare TWF, slam + free bull rush them back, 5' back yourself, then smack 'em with your reach-weapon (and also enjoy them being in your AoO zone again).TWF with a polearm and a shield will probably not end up well. If you attack with the shield first you make it your main hand, which means all your iteratives must be with the shield. So after you've pushed the enemy out of your shield-range and made that one attack in your polearm-range you're unable to continue your full-attack.
"...If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."Note that it does not require you to determine the order of your attacks before making any of them. (And, per the sentiment of some personages who put up spirited resistance awhile back to the idea that later sentences in a paragraph are contextually dependent upon its lede sentence, I would surmise that many players would parse that paragraph to mean that they can use any weapon they want first, if they have several available to them.)
For the record, I agree with Derklord on the Shield Brace discussion. Let's not treat Society nerfs as errata or intent, especially when Unhindering Shield exists. Th(at) feat (is) from the same book and page as Shield Brace, (and Unhindering Shield) allows you to use a buckler and gain the Shield Bonus no matter what you use your two hands for.
A buckler has always explicitly permitted using a weapon in two hands because a Pathfinder-style buckler (note: distinct from a real-world medieval buckler, which was held in the fist) is entirely on your forearm, leaving that arm's hand free.
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Slim I made the other thread because the argument is irrelevant to this thread.
This thread is about helping someone who asked for advice, and that someone has already taken the question about Shield Brace to their GM, so anything we decide is meaningless. What we can do now is get back to helping this thread.
(If you want to keep debating it, absolutely go ahead in the other thread, that's what it's there for.)
@BluePikachu
If you don't take the Two-Handed Fighter archetype you'd get to skip the Shield Focus requirement of Shield Brace since it's a Shield Mastery Feat, which saves you a feat.
If you're looking into Cleave I'd yet again consider another archetype. The damage bonus would never apply to your Cleave attacks.
A handful of specialists train to maximize a shield’s use in battle. Presented here are new feats categorized as shield mastery feats, each requiring Shield Focus as a prerequisite. Characters with the armor training class feature can ignore the Shield Focus feat as a prerequisite for shield mastery feats.
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Power Attack should stay, and it's bonus damage would apply on your AoOs too.
Weapon Focus isn't that great a feat, so if possible I'd avoid it. +1 to Attack for a feat is a poor trade. Weapon Specialization isn't super for a two-handed build either, since it's a small static bonus. Much better on a TWF build or an archer that has many attacks, for example.
Combat Reflexes, definitely. In addition to getting an additional AoO you can also take AoOs in the first round of combat before you've acted, which is very important because that's when the most movement happens. Your 4th lv ability score increase should be placed in strength, so that you get your 18 Strength. That one is worth +1 to Attack and +2 to Damage (even without your archetype).
Repeating myself, but High Guardian is very good for this exact reason. At lv 4 you'd have 2 AoO as a normal fighter with 18 Strength and 13 Dexterity. A High Guardian with 18 Strength would have 5 AoO, and if you increase in size you'd actually get 6 AoO per turn instead of just 1.
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Except when you're flat-footed at the beginning of the combat (as fighters frequently are) and would rather have the AC bonus at that point, or if you're a "buckler build" pursuing Unhindering Shield.
Well, aside from Shield Brace, since a light quickdraw shield would be an applicable shield for that feat.
Yes, that's great and all. But you proposed it as a replacement to spending two feats on Shield Brace. Spending even more feats hardly seems like a solution, no?
This is where the magic happens: While your opponent is crowding you, you either can't use your polearm (some GMs rule that way), or you're -4 to an improvised-weapon attack with its probably non-magical haft. So, in highest-to-lowest order, your shield attack would come first. But, after a Shield Slam (plus free Bull Rush, and any necessary 5' on your part between attacks), the enemy is now in the sweet spot of the business end of your polearm, its penalty goes away, and it is then then next-highest attack-bonus in the sequence.
"...If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."
I mean, that paragraph is obviously talking about your Base Attack Bonus, not a general attack bonus.
Note that it does not require you to determine the order of your attacks before making any of them.
Yes, indeed. But the TWF FAQ does exactly that. If you attack first with your shield, it is your main hand weapon and gets all your iteratives. If you don't use TWF, you could switch between your shield and polearm, making attacks in the highest to lowest BAB order with whatever weapon you want.
So if you don't use TWF, you could Shield Slam an enemy with your first attack and then attack them with the polearm with your iteratives. Which isn't TWF, but simply fighting with two weapons. And you don't need the Society nerf of treating your polearm as a one-handed weapon to fight with two weapons.
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A buckler has always explicitly permitted using a weapon in two hands because a Pathfinder-style buckler (note: distinct from a real-world medieval buckler, which was held in the fist) is entirely on your forearm, leaving that arm's hand free.
The point I attempted to make is that we already have a feat from the same page and book that would allow you to get your shield bonus while wielding a polearm in two hands and get 1.5x Str. The benefit of Shield Brace (getting 1.5x Str and a shield bonus) is very much in line with other feats from the source, which is in my opinion a clear indication of intent.
Yes, that's great and all. But you proposed it as a replacement to spending two feats on Shield Brace. Spending even more feats hardly seems like a solution, no?Except when you're flat-footed at the beginning of the combat (as fighters frequently are) and would rather have the AC bonus at that point, or if you're a "buckler build" pursuing Unhindering Shield.Better idea: get a light quickdraw shield, or just wear a buckler (eating -1 attacks while wielding your longhammer in both hands). and save two feats.You do lose the AC bonus from a buckler until your next turn if you use the buckler hand to hold a weapon, so it would only give the penalty and no benefit.(And while Quickdraw Shield + Quickdraw (the feat) is a combo that works, it would mean losing the reach property between your turns since you're unable to wield your longhammer while holding your shield.Well, aside from Shield Brace, since a light quickdraw shield would be an applicable shield for that feat.
Not at all, since using a buckler and a two-handed weapon together is perfectly feasible without any feats at all. (It's just that you'd want Unhindering Shield later on after you have the funds to pay for a highly magical buckler, that being at about the point where many opponents acquire additional attacks, and the percentage of inbound attacks occurring while being flat-footed shrivels to a tiny number).
But strap on a light/heavy/tower, then you will need Shield Brace (and Shield Focus) while also deploying polearm? --You must have those feats, right then and there, to make the equipment work in the desired manner.
once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
(mulling....) Yeah, I guess you'd to have Longarm on your shield arm to pull it off right. At least, you would desire so at BAB6, anyway. (Prior to BAB6, the "magic" works as I described.)
(Have I ever see a GM enforce that TWF ordering? ...I don't know that I have....)
The benefit of Shield Brace (getting 1.5x Str) is very much in line with other feats from the source...
When you're reduced to extrapolation to stake a claim, it represents a stipulation that what you desire is not contained in RAW.