Why witches should have one spell list

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, Spiritual is shared by Occult and Divine (with Occult also having Mental and Divine having Vital).

[Midnightoker]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, Spiritual is shared by Occult and Divine (with Occult also having Mental and Divine having Vital).

Ah I see.

That’s rather strange then to me but I suppose the thought behind them still makes sense.

Now I’m wondering how a Bard is at all “spiritual” and a Druid, who communes with the forces of nature, is not.

shrug

Edit: I suppose music is inherently spiritual in some form.

[Midnightoker]

On a completely separate and tangential note, the reddit summation of the stream I read in regards to the playtest feedback made me believe they weren’t changing much and that the feedback heard here was the minority and that not much would change.

I’m like halfway through the stream and that couldn’t be further from the truth. All this back and forth mattered. And regardless of where things end up, I think that’s pretty cool.

[WatersLethe]

I think it's flippin awesome that we could all contribute to the conversations going on at Paizo about where to go. Whatever direction they take it will be with a firm understanding of the consequences, thanks to our robust back and forth.

[The Raven Black]

Midnightoker wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, Spiritual is shared by Occult and Divine (with Occult also having Mental and Divine having Vital).

Ah I see.

That’s rather strange then to me but I suppose the thought behind them still makes sense.

Now I’m wondering how a Bard is at all “spiritual” and a Druid, who communes with the forces of nature, is not.

shrug

Edit: I suppose music is inherently spiritual in some form.

Spiritual is basically about the unseen, the intangible.

Material, its opposite, is about the tangible material world.

Nature is all about the material world, including its elemental energies, hence Material.

Emotions (intangible, unseen) are Spiritual. Since the Bard deals in emotions, Spiritual it is.

[Bandw2]

Midnightoker wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, Spiritual is shared by Occult and Divine (with Occult also having Mental and Divine having Vital).

Ah I see.

That’s rather strange then to me but I suppose the thought behind them still makes sense.

Now I’m wondering how a Bard is at all “spiritual” and a Druid, who communes with the forces of nature, is not.

shrug

Edit: I suppose music is inherently spiritual in some form.

i kinda went over it a long time ago, but to me;

Arcane is pragmatic and empirical, requiring diligence to change the world to how you need it. it's all about changing people or things to how you need them to be.

Divine is vague and emotional, requiring faith to protect or harm, being almost entirely around helping or harming people.

(i don't think they need as much explanation as the other two.)

Occult is idealistic, viewing things as how they are to people, but not to the world. occult magic alters the world like a narrative or a set, instead of based upon matter or people, it alters the soul of a situation, the center of a story, how it's perceived or how people are able to react to it. I find it no coincidence that occult magic is what most often you'll find it fairy tales and fables. (basically it can make illusions like a set, and curse or bless people to force their behavior like actors, mess with people's minds and souls, but not actually making permanent changes to the landscape)

Primal is simply how things are, regardless of people. it effects things as they are and has no connections to how people view things. it requires the ability to listen to everything but people, to a person's body and not the person himself. it only concerns itself with what is actually here.

[The Raven Black]

Vital is instinct, connection and faith. Whereas Mental is reason, logic, study.

Way I see it, Vital is about immersing yourself in either the tangible world (Material) or the unseen (Spiritual). And Mental is about understanding and controlling them.

[Sporkedup]

WatersLethe wrote:

I think it's flippin awesome that we could all contribute to the conversations going on at Paizo about where to go. Whatever direction they take it will be with a firm understanding of the consequences, thanks to our robust back and forth.

Exactly. I never for one minute believed anything I suggested would impact the game. But it got smarter people talking.

I expected that the playtest would function much more as a tuning than as a concept test. The basic forms they presented were always going to be the final products, just with value tweaking primarily.

[First World Bard]

So, I was in the "Witches should all cast off the Occult list" camp, and remain there. I found the Winter Witch using Primal was interesting and flavorful, but sorta found it odd that there was no mechanical restriction against just preparing a bunch of Fire spells. So I guess I'd advocate for the witch as a default sticking with the Occult spell list with patrons adding thematic non-occult spells, but turning Winter Witch into a class archetype that switched to the primal list but added back some of the Occult staples you'd expect every Witch to have. (And probably either disallow spells with the fire trait or turn them into Cold spells somehow)

[Niv Cel'on]

I’m on the side of choosing a tradition for witch as I feel all three feel the different flavors of a witch

[Bomberbros1011]

The Raven Black wrote:

Vital is instinct, connection and faith. Whereas Mental is reason, logic, study.

Way I see it, Vital is about immersing yourself in either the tangible world (Material) or the unseen (Spiritual). And Mental is about understanding and controlling them.

This is one reason why I don’t really care for primal witches. I prefer the style of patron that is a teacher or mentor for witches, which means it would be logical and based on study. I don’t really see witches as based on instinct or faith or a connection to the natural world like druids, so I don’t think primal fits. I personally would prefer an occult only witch who gets like nine spells, one of each level, from your patron choice, like PF1 witch or a sorcerers bloodline spells in a way.

[Bandw2]

The Raven Black wrote:

Vital is instinct, connection and faith. Whereas Mental is reason, logic, study.

Way I see it, Vital is about immersing yourself in either the tangible world (Material) or the unseen (Spiritual). And Mental is about understanding and controlling them.

I actually disagree, the essences are the end goals, and the traditions are how you get to that goal. I don't think the essences themselves say anything about the tradition, but that the tradition says everything about the essences.

a small difference of opinion, but a difference none the less.

[Bomberbros1011]

Bandw2 wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Vital is instinct, connection and faith. Whereas Mental is reason, logic, study.

Way I see it, Vital is about immersing yourself in either the tangible world (Material) or the unseen (Spiritual). And Mental is about understanding and controlling them.

I actually disagree, the essences are the end goals, and the traditions are how you get to that goal. I don't think the essences themselves say anything about the tradition, but that the tradition says everything about the essences.

a small difference of opinion, but a difference none the less.

According to Mark Seifter during the playtest, the essences "shape magic from behind the scenes", and the vital essence refers to "an instinctual connection and faith", so primal magic refers to an instinctual connection or faith in nature and the world around.

[HumbleGamer]

I am ok with being only able to use occult spells, but maybe could be nice to have a class feat which allows to select one spell from another list.

Like the crossblooded evolution sorcerer feat

Quote:

PFS Legal Crossblooded EvolutionFeat 8

Sorcerer
Source Core Rulebook pg. 200

Odd interactions in your bloodline provide you with unexpected spells. You can have one spell in your spell repertoire from a tradition other than the one that matches your bloodline. You cast that spell as a spell from your bloodline’s tradition. You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.

Talking about balance, we can see that the possibility to choose 1 spell from another bloodline( which is limited, because we are not talking about a full spellcasting list, bug just a few spells ) is worth a lvl 8 class feat, in terms of cost.

So, occult as main spellcasting + a feat which allows the witch to take spells from other classes could do thr job.

Obviously with limits, like

"You can choose a single spell from any spellcasting list. The spell must be of a lvl equal to the max spell lvl you can cast -2"

So by lvl 9 a witch could take a lvl 3 fireball from the arcane list.

[Bomberbros1011]

HumbleGamer wrote:

I am ok with being only able to use occult spells, but maybe could be nice to have a class feat which allows to select one spell from another list.

Like the crossblooded evolution sorcerer feat

Quote:

PFS Legal Crossblooded EvolutionFeat 8

Sorcerer
Source Core Rulebook pg. 200

Odd interactions in your bloodline provide you with unexpected spells. You can have one spell in your spell repertoire from a tradition other than the one that matches your bloodline. You cast that spell as a spell from your bloodline’s tradition. You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.

Talking about balance, we can see that the possibility to choose 1 spell from another bloodline( which is limited, because we are not talking about a full spellcasting list, bug just a few spells ) is worth a lvl 8 class feat, in terms of cost.

So, occult as main spellcasting + a feat which allows the witch to take spells from other classes could do thr job.

Obviously with limits, like

"You can choose a single spell from any spellcasting list. The spell must be of a lvl equal to the max spell lvl you can cast -2"

So by lvl 9 a witch could take a lvl 3 fireball from the arcane list.

I am okay with this, but the only issue is if witch took fireball for example, she could heighten the spell by preparing it in a higher spell slot, so this feat in this instance makes heightenable spells like fireball or burning hands much more valuable than spells that don't have any extra effects when heightened.

[HumbleGamer]

Bomberbros1011 wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

I am ok with being only able to use occult spells, but maybe could be nice to have a class feat which allows to select one spell from another list.

Like the crossblooded evolution sorcerer feat

Quote:

PFS Legal Crossblooded EvolutionFeat 8

Sorcerer
Source Core Rulebook pg. 200

Odd interactions in your bloodline provide you with unexpected spells. You can have one spell in your spell repertoire from a tradition other than the one that matches your bloodline. You cast that spell as a spell from your bloodline’s tradition. You can swap which spell you add and from which tradition as you could any other sorcerer spell, but you can’t have more than one spell from another tradition in your spell repertoire at the same time using this feat.

Talking about balance, we can see that the possibility to choose 1 spell from another bloodline( which is limited, because we are not talking about a full spellcasting list, bug just a few spells ) is worth a lvl 8 class feat, in terms of cost.

So, occult as main spellcasting + a feat which allows the witch to take spells from other classes could do thr job.

Obviously with limits, like

"You can choose a single spell from any spellcasting list. The spell must be of a lvl equal to the max spell lvl you can cast -2"

So by lvl 9 a witch could take a lvl 3 fireball from the arcane list.

I am okay with this, but the only issue is if witch took fireball for example, she could heighten the spell by preparing it in a higher spell slot, so this feat in this instance makes heightenable spells like fireball or burning hands much more valuable than spells that don't have any extra effects when heightened.

I deliberately left the hightened stuff possible because occult stuff has no damaging options.

To say this better, I thought that even by leaving to a lvl 9 witch the possibility to highten a fireball from lvl 3 to lvl 5, its damage would have been lower than lvl 5 arcane/primal spells.

A lvl 5 fireball would deal 10d6
A lvl 5 cone of cold would deal 12d6

As for the occult list, there are some damaging spells, but they are exceptions if compared to buff/debuff/control/utility stuff.

Do you think that being able to heighten "borrowed spells" to the witch max lvl would be too good for them?

I don't know casters very well and I can't figure out if with this possibility the witch could outshine other spellcaster ( even considering the fact that you will have to trade class feats for extra spells ).

[Fumarole]

I say give them school lists instead of traditions. Say, enchantment, divination and transmutation. Those three schools have 143 spells in the CRB + Age of Ashes, and of course the list will grow.

Spell List:

Aerial Form
Air Walk
Alter Reality
Anathematic Reprisal
Animal Form
Animal Messenger
Animal Vision
Ant Haul
Augury
Avatar
Baleful Polymorph
Bane
Bless
Calm Emotions
Charm
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Command
Comprehend Language
Confusion
Crisis of Faith
Crusade
Crushing Despair
Darkvision
Daze
Detect Alignment
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Scrying
Dinosaur Form
Discern Lies
Discern Location
Divine Inspiration
Dominate
Dragon Form
Dreaming Potential
Dream Message
Earthbind
Elemental Form
Enhance Victuals
Enlarge
Entangle
Enthrall
Fabricated Truth
Fear
Feeblemind
Feet to Fins
Fiery Body
Fleet Step
Flesh to Stone
Fly
Foresight
Forgotten Lines
Gaseous Form
Ghostly Weapon
Glibness
Guidance
Haste
Heroism
Hideous Laughter
Humanoid Form
Hypercognition
Imprint Message
Insect Form
Join Pasts
Jump
Knock
Know Direction
Locate
Longstrider
Magic Fang
Magic Weapon
Meld into Stone
Mending
Mindlink
Mind Probe
Mind Reading
Miracle
Modify Memory
Monstrosity Form
Moon Frenzy
Nature Incarnate
Nature's Enmity
Object Reading
Outcast's Curse
Overwhelming Presence
Paralyze
Pest Form
Plant Form
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Primal Herd
Primal Phenomenon
Prying Eye
Read Aura
Read Omens
Remove Fear
Retrocognition
Righteous Might
Scrying
See Invisibility
Sending
Shapechange
Shape Stone
Shape Wood
Shillelagh
Shrink
Shrink Item
Sigil
Sleep
Slow
Soothe
Speak with Animals
Speak with Plants
Spider Climb
Status
Stone to Flesh
Subconscious Suggestion
Suggestion
Synaptic Pulse
Synesthesia
Telepathic Bond
Telepathic Demand
Telepathy
Time Stop
Tongues
Touch of Idiocy
Tree Shape
True Seeing
True Strike
True Target
Uncontrollable Dance
Unfathomable Song
Unrelenting Observation
Wanderer's Guide
Warp Mind
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Walk
Wish
Zealous Conviction
Zone of Truth

Those seem appropriately witchy and they have a decent breakdown by spell level:

C 5
1 24
2 23
3 19
4 19
5 13
6 10
7 5
8 7
9 8
10 9

[Bomberbros1011]

Fumarole wrote:

I say give them school lists instead of traditions. Say, enchantment, divination and transmutation. Those three schools have 143 spells in the CRB + Age of Ashes, and of course the list will grow.

** spoiler omitted **...

My only issue with this is that it breaks the paradigm set up by Paizo really early on in the games life. That's not necessarily bad, but I wouldn't expect something like that to happen this early on in the games lifespan at least

[Squiggit]

Bomberbros1011 wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

I say give them school lists instead of traditions. Say, enchantment, divination and transmutation. Those three schools have 143 spells in the CRB + Age of Ashes, and of course the list will grow.

** spoiler omitted **...

My only issue with this is that it breaks the paradigm set up by Paizo really early on in the games life. That's not necessarily bad, but I wouldn't expect something like that to happen this early on in the games lifespan at least

It's not a full class, but the Red Mantis Assassin archetype already does this. It gets Transmutation and Illusion spells, plus a small number of other spells.

[Midnightoker]

Thing is, witches are known wards, even one of their hexes is, and also are known summoners/conjurers in some senses too, and again some witches have evocations. Illusion is also common for disguising themselves, their dwellings and hiding them, and other such visual charms.

So while all transmutation enchantment and divination does cover a lot, it still means patrons would have to provide substantial expansion into the other schools, IMO.

[Bomberbros1011]

Squiggit wrote:

Bomberbros1011 wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

I say give them school lists instead of traditions. Say, enchantment, divination and transmutation. Those three schools have 143 spells in the CRB + Age of Ashes, and of course the list will grow.

** spoiler omitted **...

My only issue with this is that it breaks the paradigm set up by Paizo really early on in the games life. That's not necessarily bad, but I wouldn't expect something like that to happen this early on in the games lifespan at least

It's not a full class, but the Red Mantis Assassin archetype already does this. It gets Transmutation and Illusion spells, plus a small number of other spells.

Fair point, however I do feel an archetype is a bit different from a full class, especially one as popular and requested as the witch.