| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
COM lays one question to rest as far as developer intent - serums are injectable via injection weapons (as well as the auto-injector armor upgrade).
Serums are vials of magic liquid that you can imbibe as a standard action, inject into a creature with an injection weapon, or carefully trickle down the throat of a helpless or unconscious creature as a full action.
I assume this language will be reflected in the CRB errata released in 2027.
Of other note on serums in COM:
Biohackers and serums: Biohackers can use their microlab to make non-magical serums that are permanent without using Mysticism. Alas, the microlab only allows the skill substitution, it doesn't remove the requirement for tools and a workshop, so you can't stack the theorem for faster serums and the Master Crafter feat to make 1 hour (later 30/15 minute) serums in the field like I originally thought.
I really hope we see a future theorem that lets a biohacker create one free serum without crafting rules. Make it one per day, make it 14th level prereq, make it only work on the biohacker, make it only create lower level serums, even make it only work on the Polymorphic Serum, but please, please, make it. I need my space Jekyll and Hyde. Which bring us to...
NEW SERUMS
Polymorphic Serum: It's the Polymorph spell in a bottle! Design any creature form when you craft the serum, drink it, and get mk=spell level x2 hours of duration. The mk 2 (675 credits) and mk 3 (2100 credits) serums are sweet spots, as they allow one or two racial traits respectively, and the mk 3 can give you a very wide variety of 1st level spells (or any spell at all if you can use the Svartalfar).
Rad-Out Serum: Cheap (225cr) and gives a nice bonus to radiation saves for 1 hour or drink after failing to get a new save and wipe clean any radiation effects you're suffering. Finally, a plausible in universe reason for radiation starship weapons not to be automatic death sentence for ships crewed by living beings.
Regeneration Serum: Also cheap (600cr) way to regenerate a lost limb or recover from a wound critical effect, but takes 24 hours and 24 days worth of food, which might actually bite some people who are unprepared. There's still that hideously expensive high level regeneration seed thing in Armory if you need it quicker and easier.
NEW MEDICINALS
None of these can be created by the Biohacker medicinal theorem (maybe a future level 8 theorem upgrade), but they're mostly useful at tier 1 (150cr) where they're still affordable. Plus only one of them is super useful to whip up in combat (the counteractant has other biohacker competition).
Antiobiotic: Untyped bonus of 3+tier to disease for tierx2 days.
Counteractant: Gain a bonus equal to your tier to saves to end afflictions, and successful save counts as consecutive saves equal to the tier. So here's where a tier 2 (3000 cr) might make sense against those really bad two save afflictions. Maybe.
Sal Volatile: Restore those unconscious due to HP loss to HP equal to the tier. If a saving throw effect knocked you out, get a new saving throw with a 3+tier bonus. I can definitely see a biohacker keeping one of these loaded in his injection weapon in case he need to get an ally up.
Vaccine: This is similar to the antibiotic, but it's tailored to a specific disease, getting you a 5+tier bonus against that disease only and lasting tier months. Doesn't stack with a general antibiotic.
Between the Biohacker abilities, the rad serum, and these medicinals, COM made poison and disease a lot less dangerous if you prepare and/or have a biohacker.
I laughed when I saw Rad-Out. Now we can re-make the Fallout games...
I recall last night reading the biohacker that it looks like they do have the ability to make serums/restoratives on the fly but they are like alchemist elixers where they don't last too long but can be used to load up and shoot. I believe they took two of the biohacker reagents to make them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I recall last night reading the biohacker that it looks like they do have the ability to make serums/restoratives on the fly but they are like alchemist elixers where they don't last too long but can be used to load up and shoot. I believe they took two of the biohacker reagents to make them.
This is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea.
You can quickly turn the compounds and catalysts in your custom microlab into medicinals (Core Rulebook 231). You can create an analgesic, an antitoxin, or a sedative with an item level no higher than your biohacker level. If you are an instinctive biohacker, you can also make excitants and stimulants (Armory 133). If you are a studious biohacker, you can also make antiemetics and coagulants (Armory 132). These medicinals are highly unstable and cannot be stored for later use or used by anyone else. You can add one of these medicinals to any attack you make with an injection weapon as part of the action to make the attack or attacks, but you can’t add a biohack of any kind to the same attack. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your key ability score, and you regain all expended uses of this ability (up to your maximum) when you take a 10-minute rest to recover Stamina Points.
You can shoot them, but they give you an entirely new pool of uses, rather than double uses of your biohacks. They are also a limited menu of medicinals, no serums at all. ("Restoratives" aren't a thing.) I talked about their combat uses (flat-footed or reflex debuffs and big nonlethal bonus damage) in a couple of recent posts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
During the playtest, I ran a ysoki biohacker who, because he had a pile of pregen credits and not a lot he really needed, bought a bunch of medicinals to shoot, and he ended up doing really well with both making people flat-footed and doing extra nonlethal damage; being able to make them is one of the things I requested; I guess that should go in the "What we requested, what we got" thread, too.
It is very, very strong, and now almost feels like a requirement to double your effective injection utility.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I missed that it was its own pool of uses. The biohackers seem just overall way better on release than the playtest. Given you get a lot of your stuff you can do back every 10 minute rest they are a nice combat buffer/debuffer that can basically hang with the martials doing their thing all day long.
I like the fact that even if you somehow someway used all of your uses of your various stuff you can still do the minor buffs/debuffs. They have a big bag of tricks and generally should always have something useful they can do every fight no matter how many you have in the day.
In thinking about it I guess it does make sense that serums were not included I just saw all the other stuff and thought it also added serums but all the stuff it lets you make are purely tech type materials. So I guess it makes some sense that the hybrid serums are not in the list.
Also if you could do healing serums it would make the healing biohacker option kinda pointless.
Need to go over them again but first read through they just seem really really good. Hell even if you don't use any of their tricks they are solid accurate combatants although highly specialized ones weapon wise.
I would be remiss not mention the two serum related feats in this book.
Quicker Trickler: Whoever named this is going to hell, but I LOL'd. You can trickle a serum down an unconscious character's throat as a standard rather than full action. Can these be combined with that utility accessory and quick draw to make a swift action draw, move action travel, standard action administer round? Note useful to a biohacker, of course.
Tailored Serum: Spend one minute to adjust a serum of healing to provide extra HP equal to item level to one designated character. Only usable Int modifier per day.
Mk1: 1d8+1 (5.5) 9.1 cr per HP
Mk2: 3d8+5 (18.5) 23 cr per HP
Mk3: 6d8+9 (36) 54.2 cr per HP
Mk3 healing serums went from being 6.5 times as expensive per HP healed as Mk1 down to...5.96. No, thanks.
I would be remiss not mention the two serum related feats in this book.
Quicker Trickler: Whoever named this is going to hell, but I LOL'd. You can trickle a serum down an unconscious character's throat as a standard rather than full action. Can these be combined with that utility accessory and quick draw to make a swift action draw, move action travel, standard action administer round? Note useful to a biohacker, of course.
Tailored Serum: Spend one minute to adjust a serum of healing to provide extra HP equal to item level to one designated character. Only usable Int modifier per day.
Mk1: 1d8+1 (5.5) 9.1 cr per HP
Mk2: 3d8+5 (18.5) 23 cr per HP
Mk3: 6d8+9 (36) 54.2 cr per HPMk3 healing serums went from being 6.5 times as expensive per HP healed as Mk1 down to...5.96. No, thanks.
In combat healing it is worth it compared to a Mk1 serum. Just saying. Especially at higher levels. Don't analyze things that way.
In combat healing it is worth it compared to a Mk1 serum. Just saying. Especially at higher levels. Don't analyze things that way.I would be remiss not mention the two serum related feats in this book.
Quicker Trickler: Whoever named this is going to hell, but I LOL'd. You can trickle a serum down an unconscious character's throat as a standard rather than full action. Can these be combined with that utility accessory and quick draw to make a swift action draw, move action travel, standard action administer round? Note useful to a biohacker, of course.
Tailored Serum: Spend one minute to adjust a serum of healing to provide extra HP equal to item level to one designated character. Only usable Int modifier per day.
Mk1: 1d8+1 (5.5) 9.1 cr per HP
Mk2: 3d8+5 (18.5) 23 cr per HP
Mk3: 6d8+9 (36) 54.2 cr per HPMk3 healing serums went from being 6.5 times as expensive per HP healed as Mk1 down to...5.96. No, thanks.
I'm not familiar with parties so incompetent that they need in combat healing enough to spend 1950 credits and a full round action on 27 points of it at levels 9+. A typical CR 9 combatant array averages 19.5 points of ranged damage with one hit, 20+strength modifier with a melee hit.
Oh so because you breeze through fights everyone else is incompetent? I think you need to back off of your high horse there buddy. I am sorry we all can't have god characters like you. Yes you make it sound that way. Again your outlook is pretty negative and you clearly analyze things way too much. What are we just not suppose to receive damage in combat? Or even take damage in combat? By doing that then I don't ever need to buy serums.
Also I hear to many people suggest someone play a healing mystic.
1. I don't think they are all that great. To spend resolve to heal isn't idea
2. Not everyone wants to play that role (In our case we didn't). In no way does this suggest we are incompetent. If you think that then I am glad I don't play with you. As I can tell you would suck the fun out of things.
Who said a full round action? As the biohacker I can deliver a serum as a standard action without attacking.
We just got through playing an adventure path where we were hit (at 6th level) with 6 grenades before anyone could truly react. We got hit with 2 grenades in a surprise round. Then by unluckly initiative only one party member beat the enemies in initiative. Then the 2 bad guys both shot with grenade launchers so most of the party was hit with 6 grenades. So half of party already had lost most in not all of their SP in round 1. Then from there it goes down.
I am sorry that we don' have the perfect party to never take damage. We the take on average 19-21 damage around, Mk 1 serums just doesn't get the job done, I don't care who or what you are at higher levels that isn't going to EVER cut it.
Even you stated it average of 19.5 damage on a hit. A Mk 1 serum isn't going to cut it. So please then explain how we can make Mk 1 serums work at 9+? I don't think you understand simple math at this point. I take 19.5 and you expect a Mk 1 do the job? I already made this argument at one point. I prefer treat deadly wounds over all. Even though it is limited. At 9th level I will be able to heal for 24 hits points by beating a DC 20 by 5 or more. The creatures CR + Int + my level. I can do that 2 times per day. You OVERESTIMATE the importance of in combat healing. I wish I could play in your falsity world where I don't need to worry about healing in combat enough that Mk 1 serum will work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm honestly surprised you run into in combat healing regularly. Are you using the stamina system?
Running dead suns, I saw my party enter a fight without stamina... never.
They went in with low stamina a few times, and actually used in combat healing in two fights across 12 levels, both of which being difficult boss encounters 4 levels over theirs.
Pretending those two mystic cure spells were serums of healing. They could and would have sold them, and just toughed out the fight instead. You can buy 19 serums mk. I by just selling a single mk. III.
The mk. III serum isn't useless, but it is very much overpriced.
I will have to agree with Garretmander and Xenocrat.
Healing serums are very rarely a good combat strategy for most characters.
Biohacker: Shooting an ally with a healing serum? Yes absolutely.
Mystic: Casting 3rd level Mystic Cure for 5d8 on ally or casting Mindthrust on enemy for 7d10? My players generally go for the chance to damage the enemy.
Envoy: absolutely use inspiring boost to give target SP.
Soldier, Operative: attack, attack, attack!
A dead enemy can not cause a group further damage.
Something that my players learned long ago: An enemy with 1 HP left is just as dangerous to the party as an enemy with all HP in any given round.
Almost 100% of all fights my players have been at full Stamina and most of the time they have plenty of RP to self stabilize with.
So in most cases heal wounds outside of combat.
I think there's a very important factor missing in all the fancy math
Mk1: 1d8+1 (5.5) 9.1 cr per HP = 1 hit or less from a monster when you can afford this
Mk2: 3d8+5 (18.5) 23 cr per HP= 1 hit or less from a monster when you can afford this
Mk3: 6d8+9 (36) 54.2 cr per HP= 1 hit or less from a monster when you can afford this.
when you get knocked down and then get up again.... it really doesn't matter if you can take 1 hit or 9/10ths of a hit or 1/5th of the hit, you get hit you drop again. Adding a few extra hit points is pretty irrelevant: you either get your keister out of the fight or you're going down again in one hit. The number of hit points only matter in terms of a hit killing you, and thats fairly unlikely as your HP total goes up faster than damage taken in one shot.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.
I will have to double check I thought it was any beneficial injectable delivered via their gun at range. I will reread that could just be my eyes reading one thing and brain assuming something else.
Where these extras become important is when you have parties with no envoys or healing mystics. Though there were a number of times in Dead Suns where I really ripped apart my group -- especially in Book 6.
I assume this is basically what they are for. If you have healers in your group your consumable use for healing should be low as its not very cost effective. But if you are lacking healers having something to speed up HP healing if damage bleeds into that helps.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.I will have to double check I thought it was any beneficial injectable delivered via their gun at range. I will reread that could just be my eyes reading one thing and brain assuming something else.
Nah.
Under some circumstances, you can deliver biohacks to attuned creatures using ranged injection weapons without making an attack roll.
You can also use a ranged injection weapon to deliver a biohack to a willing ally you have attuned your custom microlab to as a standard action without making an attack roll, as long as they’re within your custom microlab’s range.
You can quickly turn the compounds and catalysts in your custom microlab into medicinals (Core Rulebook 231). You can create an analgesic, an antitoxin, or a sedative with an item level no higher than your biohacker level. If you are an instinctive biohacker, you can also make excitants and stimulants (Armory 133). If you are a studious biohacker, you can also make antiemetics and coagulants (Armory 132). These medicinals are highly unstable and cannot be stored for later use or used by anyone else. You can add one of these medicinals to any attack you make with an injection weapon as part of the action to make the attack or attacks, but you can’t add a biohack of any kind to the same attack. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your key ability score, and you regain all expended uses of this ability (up to your maximum) when you take a 10-minute rest to recover Stamina Points.
There's nothing in medication mastery to adopt the biohack rules, they separately have no action economy to load and regenerate after rests, like biohacks, but don't adopt any biohack rules explicitly.
There's nothing special for serums at all - they have to be loaded normally and attack rolls made, but injection expert does allow you to pull the right one out for an attack if you have it preloaded somewhere in your dart magazine.
Tranq dart theorem and your superserum do function as biohacks, so they can be shot at attuned allies - the former would be useful if your mind-controlled solarion friend is about to carve the party up.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.
Taking from the Biohack description:
You can deliver any biohack you create with any attack from an injection weapon. You must declare prior to the attack roll that you are using a biohack and specify which effect you are using, but you select and apply the biohack as part of the action used to make the attack. You do not need to preload your weapon with biohacks. If you are making a ranged attack and miss your target, the biohack is expended along with the attack’s ammunition.
Taking the injection weapon property:
This weapon or its ammunition can be filed with a drug, an injury poison, or a medicinal compound.
There is nothing stating that a healing serum cannot be in a vial with a dart tip on the end.
Also Biohackers can make serums with their custom microlab.
My ruling is that the ammo is the healing serum dart, a biohack can be applied to it and you do not have to hit a designated ally.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.Taking from the Biohack description:
You can deliver any biohack you create with any attack from an injection weapon. You must declare prior to the attack roll that you are using a biohack and specify which effect you are using, but you select and apply the biohack as part of the action used to make the attack. You do not need to preload your weapon with biohacks. If you are making a ranged attack and miss your target, the biohack is expended along with the attack’s ammunition.Taking the injection weapon property:
This weapon or its ammunition can be filed with a drug, an injury poison, or a medicinal compound.There is nothing stating that a healing serum cannot be in a vial with a dart tip on the end.
Also Biohackers can make serums with their custom microlab.
My ruling is that the ammo is the healing serum dart, a biohack can be applied to it and you do not have to hit a designated ally.
No one said that a serum can't go in a dart. I would also run that dart as operating the same ad one that contains a biohack. That being said it is important to note the deviation from the letter of the rules in the book. It's important as a GM, so I can tell players to expect the difference. It's important as a player, because I can't assume that kind of ruling without asking the GM.
As a side note, the way that the final bio hacker was written, they only auto hit friends at range with biohacks, not serums. I expect that's a RAI/RAW disconnect, but it may matter if you play at very RAW focused tables.Taking from the Biohack description:
You can deliver any biohack you create with any attack from an injection weapon. You must declare prior to the attack roll that you are using a biohack and specify which effect you are using, but you select and apply the biohack as part of the action used to make the attack. You do not need to preload your weapon with biohacks. If you are making a ranged attack and miss your target, the biohack is expended along with the attack’s ammunition.Taking the injection weapon property:
This weapon or its ammunition can be filed with a drug, an injury poison, or a medicinal compound.There is nothing stating that a healing serum cannot be in a vial with a dart tip on the end.
Also Biohackers can make serums with their custom microlab.
My ruling is that the ammo is the healing serum dart, a biohack can be applied to it and you do not have to hit a designated ally.
Wuh? The biohack is its own solution. It goes in an otherwise empty piece of ammunition fired from an injection weapon. You can't combine with with a medicinal or serum that's already in an injection shot.
Unless you meant "my houseruling is..."
Edit: Seeing Hammerjack's post and rereading yours I think you're arguing against something no one is claiming (serums can't be fired in injection weapons - COM finally clarified that they can) combined with something clearly wrong (biohacks can be fired in an injection shot containing something else).
Wuh? The biohack is its own solution. It goes in an otherwise empty piece of ammunition fired from an injection weapon. You can't combine with with a medicinal or serum that's already in an injection shot.Unless you meant "my houseruling is..."
Not a house rule at all. A healing serum dart is a piece of ammunition. A biohack can be applied to any piece of ammunition that is fired from an injection weapon. No where does it say that the ammo has to be empty or hollow for that matter.
I could have missed it but I did not see anything written that states a biohack cannot be added to this type of ammunition. The RAW as written seems to indicate otherwise. It clearly says select and apply, not select and load. Maybe the biohack is applied to the outside of the ammo.
If there is a specific passage in COM, please let me know.
Wuh? The biohack is its own solution. It goes in an otherwise empty piece of ammunition fired from an injection weapon. You can't combine with with a medicinal or serum that's already in an injection shot.Unless you meant "my houseruling is..."
Not a house rule at all. A healing serum dart is a piece of ammunition. A biohack can be applied to any piece of ammunition that is fired from an injection weapon. No where does it say that the ammo has to be empty or hollow for that matter.
I could have missed it but I did not see anything written that states a biohack cannot be added to this type of ammunition. The RAW as written seems to indicate otherwise. It clearly says select and apply, not select and load. Maybe the biohack is applied to the outside of the ammo.
If there is a specific passage in COM, please let me know.
How many individual fluids do you think a dart can hold? Two serums? Three? Five? Ninety-nine serums of healing in the dart, ninety-nine serums in the dart?
An (empty) dart is a piece of ammunition. Poisons, serums, medicinals, and now biohacks (and other things that function as biohacks, like the tranq dart) are individual items that can be put in those empty darts and those darts loaded in a weapon. There is no justification for believing that a biohack can be added to a dart that is already full of another solution.
Edit: Actually, I'm going to have to go with RAW allowing this. "You can deliver any biohack you create with any attack from an injection weapon." A dart already loaded with another substance is part of "any attack." If they don't like it they can FAQ or errata it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Xenocrat
I do not dispute your logic on what a hollow dart holds. I agree with it.
I would think a hollow dart holds 1 serum. Maybe you could put a contact substance on the tip of that dart.
As you pointed out the RAW on biohack is very broad with the "any attack" statement.
That's all I was basing my statements on.
The fact that medication mastery has this line
"You can add one of these medicinals to any attack you make with an injection weapon as part of the action to make the attack or attacks, but you can’t add a biohack of any kind to the same attack."
implies that biohack can only not be added when something specifies it like this. And there isn't any wording preventing for serums. or the "not free" medicinals.
I think
That's a good point. I'd thought this was to avoid trying to combine them with Spark of Ingenuity, but this makes more sense.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Right so if you add a medicinal from medication mastery you can't also add a biohack. You can add one or the other.
And you can add that one or the other to a dart that already has a serum loaded in it.
Again your argument is flawed. Continuing to use your averages.
If the creature is hitting for 19.5 If I heal more than that and can heal more than I damage then it is worth it to heal. I didn't build a combat based biohacker. I build a medical doctor who HEALS and is the primary healer. Also based on your logic then nothing I have as the Biohacker is worth it. I should try to reduce the creatures resistances or reduce its to hit. Because that should be solely spent on attacking. Not every class was build to just do damage. That is what there are options. Yeas you can build a Biohacker who does damage, but how well does it compare to that of an operative who can get the trick attack off almost 100% of the time after 7th. Or a soldier who can deal massive amounts of damage. Again your logic is flawed beyond belief.
at 7th I am dealing 1d8 + 6. Thats is with painful injection. +3 (weapon spec) 3 (painful injection) 0r 10.5 average. Still healing for 18.5 with Mk2 at 18.5 is still the better move. It is a gamble. Can I heal more than they take it is worth it. Especially if the damage dealers can do the damage, which is where I come in AS WELL to help lower attack. Lower the AC by 2 (Basic Inhibitor), -2 to hit in melee (Toxicology Booster), -1 to hit (Minor Inhibitor).But remember by your flawed logic I should just attack. If you aren't healing as much as the bad guys are dealing then yes it doesn't make sense to waste time with that. But wait only if there was a solution for that. But hold on there is Mk 3 serum on average can solve that issue. Is it the most cost effective no argument there. But just to dismiss it solely on breaking the numbers down, my original point. YOU OVER ANALYZE everything to the smallest possible factor. Just because you don't believe in to does not mean it isn't viable. Because not everyone wants to play a DPS style character doesn't mean you have to. That is why you can play this thing called SUPPORT, HEALER.
Hawk you even state for most characters. Biohacker it is great which is what I initially tried to make my point, but was immediately brushed off an told we were incompetent.
End this argument with:
There is value in everything, you just have to be smart enough to figure that part out. Not everything is idea, but has its uses. And clearly there is a use for everything or else it wouldn't exist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I still think in combat healing is nearly useless when the whole stamina system exists, I realize I made an error in my previous post regarding selling stuff.
A sold mk. III serum and five credits more will only get you four mk. I serums.
So, a looted serum should probably be saved for later, but you should never buy any higher serum than a mk. I. You should probably still do debuffs and damage in combat, then drink it afterwards, but you shouldn't sell it.
Again your argument is flawed. Continuing to use your averages.
It's ok that you aren't capable of understanding this. I'm not actually arguing with you, I'm explaining it for the benefit of others. I hope you're happy playing your way.
Biohackers can actually do some respectable damage, especially with Painful Injections and Medicinal Mastery's free sedatives.
Also, it's a little hot in here. Can we take the temperature down a bit and realize that we are just discussing a game, which is supposed to be fun?
Saying that in combat healing is useless doesn't really hold up.
It's a bit niche. You don't need it every day, and it isn't really a full time role for a character, but it doeseems occasionally do a lot of good. Stamina is the single largest reason for the reduced need for healing in SF, but sometimes things happen back to back and you can't rest between encounters, and HP becomes a lot more important. Sometimes you only have a round or 3 before reinforcements show up. Sometimes you just get really unlucky and start a high CR encounter by losing initiative and eating multiple crits, to put a character or two down before you can even act.
I've also had this conversation with someone who is playing in a game that is a serious meatgrinder, where every encounter is at least CR+3. In a game like that, healing takes on more importance.
Combat has a use, and not one that only occurs when the party makes extremely poor decisions. Just not one that comes up constantly.