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Before I begin, I want to give a shout out to the folks who designed this playtest investigator because there are a lot of interesting new features to this class that are very ambitious and inspiring me to want to play.
However, I the introduction of new classes has me rethinking the purpose of class in PF2 and has me having some questions that I think are easiest to voice in analysis of one specific class/sub class.
On the one hand:
A forensic Medicine Investigator is very cool, and, if it could use Wisdom as a key attribute (which would make a LOT more sense than INT for this sub-class because all of its features utilize wisdom, it would be a pretty powerful option.
But:
Wouldn't it be the vastly more powerful non-magical healer than the Chirurgeon? Battle Medicine every hour is approaching Magical healer levels of utility in and out of combat. No it doesn't get access to elixirs of life like the Chirurgeon (although the Alchemical Sciences investigator probably does which reaffirms my confusion about what is supposed to be niche of these classes/sub-classes and if they are so close, why is it not better to find a way to bridge them with an archetype or class feats?)
So I guess, I sort of think it is cool that I will 3 different choices to make a character who's primary class identity is "non-magical healer" after the APG, but it is hard to imagine that one of the three is not going to emerge as the obvious best option (probably one of the investigator options because it will have access to far more skill feats, and new non-magical healing skill feats were already introduced in the Lost Omen's world guide, and will continue to drop every couple of new books).
And maybe other folks feel differently than me, but at the point that we start getting new classes that just do something another previous class did, only better, I start to worry that PF2 will hit that point where the core design is built around class niche being central to the entire rule system, but also being something that can essentially be bypassed by introducing more additional content. At which point I start wondering why be a class a system at all?
Again, I think there are a lot of really cool elements to the investigator class, and if the Forensic Medicine Investigator was WIS based, to fit with all of its class features, it would be a great class to play, but I just don't know how I feel about hybrid classes from PF1 coming along side flexible class chassis with options like alchemist field of study and rogue racket. It feels a little too much like a return to have to having an class archetype to make every class work like a gunslinger, rather than existing as one archetype for any class to be able to use a gun.
Maybe the primary elements of the Forensic Medicine sub-class should just be a non-class specific archetype for any class to choose that wants to focus on being a doctor/surgeon like character? And if you wanted to do it more with alchemical elixirs, you do it as an alchemist, and if you want to focus on skill feats you do it as a rogue, and if you want to focus on being an absolute heal bot, you do it as a cleric.
Regardless of which direction the developers decide to go, The Forensic Medicine Investigator should not use INT as a key stat, as the playtest build currently stands. It is very clearly a WIS based sub-class that suffers from a break in the fiction because (short of what the Chirurgeon gets, there is no way to make a PF2 character a medical genius that focus on INT.
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Seems to me that the simple solution to all this fooforah about INT being the investigator's key ability could be easily solved by allowing a choice: INT or WIS.
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Seems to me that the simple solution to all this fooforah about INT being the investigator's key ability could be easily solved by allowing a choice: INT or WIS.
It's a good solution, unless you want to play a high Int investigator.
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I think the Alchemical Sciences Investigator uses INT well enough, especially if the Study suspect class feature is changed to not need a roll.
The Empiricist needs something of a boost to utilize INT and should not be better built as a wisdom Investigator, but from the twitch stream, it seems like the developers are aware of that. My vote is for the Empiricist to get INT to Perception checks.
But the Forensic Science investigator is going to be leaning heavily onto Medicine as their key skill and it doesn't make any sense to me to have a second subclass (after the Chirurgeon) get INT to Medicine. It makes much more sense to me for the Forensic Medicine Investigator to get Wisdom as a key stat.
Giving all investigators a choice makes it feel too loose and undefined as a class to me, but having 1 subclass with a different key attribute seems fine to me.
However, even if they do give the Forensic Medicine investigator WIS, is there enough of a narrative difference between it and the Chiurgeon to justify it?
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I agree, I would like to see Forensic gain access to Wisdom as their key ability. I think setting that precedent also opens up a Charisma based Investigator subclass built on sweet talking and interrogating suspects, which would be a lot of fun in my opinion
The Empiricist needs something of a boost to utilize INT and should not be better built as a wisdom Investigator, but from the twitch stream, it seems like the developers are aware of that. My vote is for the Empiricist to get INT to Perception checks.While I can understand the emotional need to have INT do more, the problem for me is that the Empiricist is kind of the only true Investigator. If they give INT more benefit, then there really is no reason to build a WIS based Inv that isn't Forensic, unless the INT benefit were slight...and then it wouldn't satisfy what some people want. Or rather, it's going to be hard not to feel the need to max INT.
McGyver, Sherlock Homes, and Dr. Quinn Medicine woman. Seems like a whole genre of Inv is missing.
I think on the scene is a pretty interesting and innovative feat, but it will be a challenge for many GMs to employ it and I can see it causing frustration at a lot of tables. It also has nothing to do with INT and I think that is a mistake. I would like the Empiricist to be able to make some kind of INT skill check in order to get an extra piece of information about a crime scene rather than for it to just be a free thing.
If the Empiricist only got to use INT for perception when using the studied suspect action (if they keep studied suspect as an action requiring a check), it would still be hard to totally tank Wisdom, because they are going to be making lots of other perception checks, including for initiative.
I also really like the idea of a CHA based investigator that specializes in using diplomacy to trip people up and get them to reveal secrets about themselves.
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I don’t think a Charisma based (as in having charisma as your highest stat) investigator is currently viable. If it is, it probably is an empiricist with an 8 or 10 INT, who would be much, much better built as a rogue scoundrel, who possibly MCs into investigator, assuming the skill abilities given can stack in some way.
I appreciate wanting to see build diversity, but the only reason the empiricist has that now is because all intelligence and charisma do for them right now is give access to skills and skill feats, which the rogue does as well, but gets the superior mechanic in sneak attack, and loses nothing in proficiencies, getting legendary perception by 13. A 16/12/10/12/14/16 or a 12/16/10/12/14/16 stat array is a far more viable character as rogue than as an investigator. While I really enjoy a lot of the investigator concepts and feat offerings, it is hard to see where the investigator clearly outshines a rogue who just had better access to more investigative skill feats.
I like the idea of a future investigator built more specifically around diplomacy, but want class features And class feats to support it.
A class who gains no advantage over any other class from investing in their key attribute doesn’t actually have a key attribute. Right now, the alchemical sciences investigator is the only investigator who is better for investing in INT. I don’t want to see a hokey INT to attack or damage mechanics turning the class into a one true build class that makes the wizard seem like an idiot for using 2 action spells to do what the investigator does at-will, but I do want a class forced into having INT be a key stat to utilize that stat more effectively than a rogue. Especially because investigator already has to build moderately to maximumly toward Dex (for attack and AC) and Wisdom(for their signature class ability and because perception is the defining characteristic of the class: the see/sense things).
Again I like a lot of the ideas, but in practice, to me, the investigator just feels like a less good and less flexible rogue with some focused out utility feat options easily added to the rogue’s feat list. The only thing it offers is the ability to avoid some of the baggage some people heap on the class by calling it a rogue, but at the cost of quite a bit of combat effectiveness and flexibility.
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Basically, I think the scoundrel’s unique ability should be the baseline floor of what a class utilizes it’s key attribute for.
For the forensics investigator this is easily accomplished by adopting wisdom as the key attribute. It is already accomplished for INT with the alchemical sciences investigator. It is only lacking for the empiricist
I don’t think a Charisma based (as in having charisma as your highest stat) investigator is currently viable.What is "viable" in this context?
Ideally, I'd perfer there to be an investigator that uniquely synergizes with charisma and charisma based skills,
but the build requires a pretty high wisdom to make use of abilities, and pretty much a 16 dexterity to have any survivability or attack action to take, so prioritizing charisma is difficult to do well and subpar to any charisma focused character. Right now the charisma skill based character is exclusively the scoundrel rogue, but it would be cool to see options for a more social investigator come along in the APG.
Basically, viable to me as a character class/class option means that there is interesting and unique things that this character can contribute that other characters cannot.
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Well, I think the point of playtesting is to find out what people find enjoyable, interesting and unique on a larger scale than one person.
An investigator with a 14 in WIS and a 16 in CHA, is going to struggle to be a good investigator, AND be not as good as other CHA skill based classes.
But I apologize for using the word viable. I meant "fun to play" which is absolutely subjective, but it is subjective in a testable fashion, and I'm pretty confident that being an investigator who maximizes CHA (with what we currently have) is not going to fall into the "more fun to play" category than the Scoundrel rogue, for the vast majority of people who try out both.
Regarding the topic of viability/fun.
Two questions that come to mind when talking about nonstandard stat distributions for me:
How effectively can you make a build around your chosen stat and how well does that build function in and out of combat?
and
How much does your class uniquely qualify you to leverage that stat in a way that other classes can't? That is to say, what makes a high-Cha (or Wis or Int or whatever) Investigator stand out from a high-Cha Fighter or Rogue or Wizard?
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Thanks for the non-magic healing analysis everyone!
I don’t think a Charisma based (as in having charisma as your highest stat) investigator is currently viable.What is "viable" in this context?Ideally, I'd perfer there to be an investigator that uniquely synergizes with charisma and charisma based skills,
(...)
Yeah, I'm surprised there is no "Interogator" subclass that focuses on CHA and well... interogation techniques.
I get that people know what they want to play, but at some point don't people need to actually test their theories and provide anecdotes to affirm or contradict preconceptions?
This. Although I'm not sure about the "anecdotes" part. What did you test, how did you test it, what were the results? I'll grant that the fun factor is hard to quantify as well as being subjective, so anecdotes are probably useful there.
All I was saying about a CHA based Investigator, is that without a different subclass than is offered in the playtest, it is a character I would never try to build/play. But if there was a diplomacy based subclass, it would be cool, and would make a charisma based social investigator something I would be interested in playing.
But all of that derails the primary point of this thread, which I am thankful that Mark commented on and reminded me of, which is:
How many non-magical healer builds should we get?
If the the Forensics Investigator got Wisdom as an attribute option, they would be a very strong class build for the non-magical healer. Is it better for the game to have two different classes do something so very similar in terms of character niche? Or does it start to erode the purpose of class if there are too many ways to build a very similar character? Especially if one of them turns out to just clearly be the superior option?
Or more simply, if the Forensic Investigator exists and got Wisdom as a key attribute, would they be just plain better than the Chiurgeon?
And if they didn't get Wisdom as a Key Attribute, why does INT make any sense as their key attribute, since the only way to have INT be a relevant skill to a medical doctor in PF2 is the Chiurgeon route of focusing on an INT skill as a replacement for medicine and would be very redundant to do again?
I think that chirurgeon's toes aren't stepped on here, as alchemical healer is a different niche from a primarily Medicine-based healer. For example, chirurgeon's in-combat heals can be reapplied many times in one combat. In this case I feel like they are distinct enough.
I think your concerns about one emerging as the "best" over the other are valid though, especially as healing is such a directly measureable effect.
The Alchemist class is all about making stuff, so having a class option that replaces some other skill with Crafting makes sense.
The Investigator class is all about knowing or finding out stuff -- so what Int-based skill would it make sense for that class to use for such purposes instead of Crafting? Maybe an "Investigative Lore" skill that does absolutely nothing except for whatever various feats and class features let it be used for?
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The Investigator class is all about knowing or finding out stuff -- so what Int-based skill would it make sense for that class to use for such purposes instead of Crafting?
Society (Int)
"You understand the people and systems that make civilization run, and you know the historical events that make societies what they are today. Further, you can use that knowledge to navigate the complex physical, societal, and economic workings of settlements." Good old investigation seems like a fairly good fit for it.
The more closely I have looked at the Medical Forensics investigator, the more confident I am that it should be the version of the investigator that gets wisdom as a key attribute. It seems like the best way to establish a clear and definitive boundary between the Chiurgeon and the Medical Forensics investigator in terms of build, even though both can still benefit from having the other attribute be the strong secondary attribute. Having both non-magical healers use the same Key attribute puts them into too much of a direct competition with each other for an important, but relatively niche aspect of the game. For example, having many strength based or Dex based strikers is fine, because attacking is such a central part of the game that it happens all the time and little nuanced changes are strongly felt. Whereas, even in combat healing doesn't necessarily come up every round of combat, and it will already struggle to feel unique. At least with different key attributes, the Medical Investigator can really be the absolute best Medicine skill junkie, while the Chiurgeon can be the best alchemical healer option (although the Alchemical sciences investigator, can be chasing pretty closely behind).
It also leaves the Alchemical and Forensics investigator working very well with all of the other investigator mechanics as is, with the exception that something needs to change about studied suspect to allow it to fire off more easily, at least against the target of Take the case. My suggestion for that is still to allow failures to count as successes against targets of the Take the case (perhaps with something else added to slightly boost regular success so there is still a difference between those two tiers, if it doesn't bog down the mechanic and make it too complicated). This will also contribute to the strategic feel of the investigator as needing to do their research to be most effective. If necessary (I am not getting to field test these very much), addition feats that allow the different kinds of investigators to take cases, and switch their cases in ways relevant to their fields would help cover any cracks, and these investigators look very fun to play, with some real narrative and mechanical niche to them.
Also, with this change, the difference between the rogue and the investigator is made stronger because preparation becomes a clear focus of the investigator class, in a very similar way that wizards and sorcerers have different niches because of prepared and spontaneous casting abilities.
The empiricist gets some really cool things, but isn't feeling enough like Sherlock homes to me/ doesn't get enough from being the most brilliant mind in the room. Intelligence to Perception for this one subclass would probably cover that without stepping on the other builds toes, because the Alchemical Sciences investigator is going to be having plenty of elixirs to cover a 1 or 2 point attribute deficit over many levels of play and be better at having well balanced stats to take advantage of their alchemical flexibility.
Overall, My concerns about non-magical healing being too similar are starting to lesson the more I look at it and I am really excited to see what the investigator will look like as a final class.