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Here are the rules in question, so that they are clear before we begin.
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
Some people are arguing that the intent is for Soulfire to work with Solar Flare. I think the RAW is pretty clear that it doesn't (and I generally assume the developers at least try to write what they intend). Solar Flare can only benefit from fusions that you can put on small arms, and Soulfire is a fusion you can only put on Weapon Crystals. Those two things are not equal, so they can't work. But a number of people are already assuming they do and before this turns into another Ring of Fangs, it would be nice to get dev clarification or a FAQ. Especially since I'd love to be wrong here and get Soulfire on my solar flare.
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Yeah, I also don't agree with your interpretation, but I agree we need an FAQ one way or the other.
I don't think "the RAW is clear" is at all true, because there is actually nothing in the CRB letting you apply fusions directly to Solar Weapons, and all we have is a forum comment by Owen (who doesn't work here anymore) saying that you can apply fusions to solar weapons via crystals. So "as written", it's rather second-hand.
I think the line in Solar Flare is intended to prevent you from applying stuff like a melee- or thrown-only fusion to a Solar Flare.
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I’m flabbergasted that anyone could disagree with Pithica. Soulfire can’t go on a small arm, end of the line.
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I think the line in Solar Flare is intended to prevent you from applying stuff like a melee- or thrown-only fusion to a Solar Flare.
What it plainly says it does is not allow things that don't apply to small arms to apply to your solar flare.
Soulfire does not apply to small arms.
Soulfire does not apply to your solar flare.
I have yet to see any argument the other way that doesn't simply negate the entire prohibition to a null set.
I think the line in Solar Flare is intended to prevent you from applying stuff like a melee- or thrown-only fusion to a Solar Flare.
Then why be so specific as to apply to small arms rather than ranged weapons? Or long arms?
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Even if it said 'Ranged Weapons' instead of small arms, a Solarian Weapon Crystal isn't that, either.
I really can't see anything but wishful thinking here. I'm only posting the question hoping to head off the inevitable arguments in SFS if and when this gets an AR.
There's going to be a huge difference in Solar Flare performance between the tables where the DM says the damage is 1d4+5 and the ones where it's 1d4+1. I'm a bit of a munchkin, so I'd prefer the 1d4+5, but I can't read what it actually says and believe that it's legal.
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"Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way"
Soulfire specifically affects solar weapons.
Soulfire is applied to weapon crystals, solar flare can use weapon crystals
Weapon fusions that cannot be used on small arms say melee only. Soulfire does not say this.
Thus, solar flare meets both of those requirements to have the soulfire ability.
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Soulfire is applied to weapon crystals, solar flare can use weapon crystals
Weapon fusions that cannot be used on small arms say melee only. Soulfire does not say this.
Thus, solar flare meets both of those requirements to have the soulfire ability.
Taking the full paragraph together:
"Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
The restriction on fusions is presented by that sentence structure as the more specific subrule. The requitement on fusions is not "not melee only", it is "applicable to a small arm".
I'm not certain that soulfire was intended to not work, but the rules they wrote down and published don't allow it.
Ah, I see that the revelation that provides the disarm quality also wouldn’t work with solar flare.
But the only reason it isn't able to be put on a small arm is because it's limited to solar weapons.... So it isn't "not able to put put on a small arm" since there is no text suggesting that a small arm that is also a solarian weapon would be disqualified.
But the only reason it isn't able to be put on a small arm is because it's limited to solar weapons.... So it isn't "not able to put put on a small arm" since there is no text suggesting that a small arm that is also a solarian weapon would be disqualified.
Since it can only go on a solar weapon it absolutely isn't able to be put on a small arm.
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Since it can only go on a solar weapon it absolutely isn't able to be put on a small arm.
Based on what? Nothing in it suggests that small arms are banned from using the soulfire fusion as long as they meet the prerequisite of being a solar weapon.
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The title of this thread is "clarification of intent", not "what is the current RAW".
Current RAW on fusions and solar weapons is murky because the CRB doesn't actually explain it. We just have a forum post by Owen saying that you can get the effect of a fusion on a solar weapon by putting the fusion on the crystal. That actually leaves a LOT of questions unanswered, such as:
- Can you put a Disruptive fusion on a crystal if the crystal doesn't do bludgeoning damage, but the solar weapon you're using does?
- Can you apply melee-only fusions on crystals, since crystals aren't melee weapons?
- All fusions except soulfire go directly on weapons. If you're doing them via crystal, presumably you'd read their requirements as if they were on the weapon, not on the crystal. But soulfire can only go on the crystal. So how can you even apply soulfire to an old school solar weapon then?
So the RAW is messy and the one thing we know about intent is that you can use crystals to put fusions onto solar weapons/flares.
What we need is an FAQ that sorts out Solar Flare, but also fusions on solar weapons in general.
Based on what? Nothing in it suggests that small arms are banned from using the soulfire fusion as long as they meet the prerequisite of being a solar weapon.Since it can only go on a solar weapon it absolutely isn't able to be put on a small arm.
Absolutely everything says that they can benefit from something that could go on a solar weapon UNLESS it's something that cannot also benefit a small arm
parsing out some non relevant text
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm."
So either fusions can effect solar weapons, or they cannot. If they cannot, soulfire can't do anything. (this would be silly)
If soulfire fusions can effect soulfire weapons they need to be able to effect small arms and they can't... so it doesn't work.
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So the RAW is messy and the one thing we know about intent is that you can use crystals to put fusions onto solar weapons/flares.
I do not see how you are seeing or arguing for any mess in the raw. At all.
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I do not see how you are seeing or arguing for any mess in the raw. At all.
So the RAW is messy and the one thing we know about intent is that you can use crystals to put fusions onto solar weapons/flares.
1) There are no written rules in the CRB for applying fusions on solar weapons. Messy.
2) With Owen's comment that you then put fusions intended for solar weapons on the crystal, you get a new mess: how do you determine whether a given fusion can go on a solar weapon? If you want a fusion that can only go on a bludgeoning weapon, can you use an Electron crystal to add it to your solar "hammer"? There is no RAW to tell you whether you can or can't. Messy.3) Let's say we do the most obvious thing, that I think most people were already doing: you put the fusion on the crystal, checking the crystal for level limits; but then you act as if the fusion is moved on to the weapon, checking if it meets other requirements of the fusion. But you can't do that with soulfire, because a solar weapon isn't a crystal so soulfire can't go on it. So soulfire has to be some kind of exception that stays on the crystal but still boosts the weapon. Again messy.
There is so much unwritten rules on how to apply fusions to crystals and solar weapons, that I think the argument from RAW doesn't have much merit.
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none of that mess is HERE though. it all belongs somewhere else under a different faq.
Soulfire can't go on a small arm. Solar flare only works with fusions that work with small arms. It's not insane troll logic, raw shenanigans, or anything other than the most plain straightforward reading of the plain text to reach that conclusion.
The clear intent is that things that can't go on a small arm can't go on a solar flare. This is more asking for a faqratta than a rules clarification.
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none of that mess is HERE though. it all belongs somewhere else under a different faq.
Soulfire can't go on a small arm. Solar flare only works with fusions that work with small arms. It's not insane troll logic, raw shenanigans, or anything other than the most plain straightforward reading of the plain text to reach that conclusion.
The clear intent is that things that can't go on a small arm can't go on a solar flare. This is more asking for a faqratta than a rules clarification.
I think the "clear intent" is that you can't put melee fusions, or perhaps a future fusion intended for bows or sniper rifles, can't go on a solar flare.
I don't think it's clear intent at all that soulfire won't work. Soulfire is the weird fusion that doesn't go on the weapon it's boosting, but on the crystal that's boosting the weapon. You couldn't put soulfire on a solar weapon either, only on the crystal.
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But you can't do that with soulfire, because a solar weapon isn't a crystal so soulfire can't go on it. So soulfire has to be some kind of exception that stays on the crystal but still boosts the weapon. Again messy.
This, right here, is absolutely not true. No one is making any assumptions about how soulfire works. The text of soulfire clearly defines exactly how it works.
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.
1. Soulfire as a fusion, can only be put on a solarian weapon crystal.
2. If you're using a Solar Weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the fusion, you add charisma to damage.It's two clear sentences. It isn't 'messy'.
The crux of the issue is that the text from solar flare is also clear. If you can't apply a fusion to a small arm, you can't get any benefit from it on your solar flare. Full Stop. That's also clearly written. Soulfire is a fusion you can't apply to a small arm therefore you can't get any benefit from it on your solar flare. There are no massive leaps of logic. A=B!=C therefore A!=C.
If the devs meant for it to work. Great. They can come by and say that, and I hope they do.
Absolutely everything says that they can benefit from something that could go on a solar weapon UNLESS it's something that cannot also benefit a small arm
parsing out some non relevant text
My point was that there is nothing in soulfire that actually suggests you cannot put it on a small arm. The restriction of "UNLESS it's something that cannot also benefit a small arm " only takes effect if there is something that says it cannot apply to a small arm, which it doesn't actually say.
It says " When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion" not " When you hit a target with a melee solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion" or "When you hit a target with a non-small-arm solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion".
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Gang, we're retreading ground. Bright people on both sides of the discussion are reading the exact same wording in two very different ways. Rather than repeat ourselves, I think we should wait for Joe Pasini (or some other member of the Starfinder Team)'s clarification.
As much as I would like soulfire to be used with solar flare, the debate here is contentious enough that I would not use it until there is an official ruling -- largely because I hate rules arguments, but also because ambiguity in OrgPlay leads to unhappy players and GMs.
Hmm
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My point was that there is nothing in soulfire that actually suggests you cannot put it on a small arm.The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.
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Unless you somehow craft a small arm using a solarian weapon crystal as a base, you really can't put a soulfire fusion on it.
As much as I would like soulfire to be used with solar flare, the debate here is contentious enough that I would not use it until there is an official ruling -- largely because I hate rules arguments, but also because ambiguity in OrgPlay leads to unhappy players and GMs.
This is why I asked for the clarification. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong and have a Dev say, "Yeah we meant for this to work." I really don't want to waste time at table listening to or participating in arguments. I don't have the time for that.
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Absolutely everything says that they can benefit from something that could go on a solar weapon UNLESS it's something that cannot also benefit a small arm
parsing out some non relevant text
My point was that there is nothing in soulfire that actually suggests you cannot put it on a small arm. The restriction of "UNLESS it's something that cannot also benefit a small arm " only takes effect if there is something that says it cannot apply to a small arm, which it doesn't actually say.
Absolutely does not follow. Something that can only be placed on a solarion cystal is something that cannot be placed on a small arm. Something that can be placed only on a long arm cannot be placed on a small arm. Etc. I don't think anything in the game is worded exactly the way you say it has to be worded here to count.
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Gang, we're retreading ground. Bright people on both sides of the discussion are reading the exact same wording in two very different ways. Rather than repeat ourselves, I think we should wait for Joe Pasini (or some other member of the Starfinder Team)'s clarification.
As much as I would like soulfire to be used with solar flare, the debate here is contentious enough that I would not use it until there is an official ruling -- largely because I hate rules arguments, but also because ambiguity in OrgPlay leads to unhappy players and GMs.
Hmm
I am all for recognizing vaguarities of the english language and competing areas of the rules but every argument for soulfire working by the rules we have is just flat out nonsensical.
And thus, request for clarification of intent.
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Though I realize that I called for you all to stop arguing... I suddenly realize that the unintended consequence of this is that this thread dropped off the top of the forum.
:/
I do want a clarification on this, which means this discussion needs to keep going I suppose.
So here are some questions for all of you:
1) Would the addition of soulfire to solar flare be unbalanced compared to other solarian options?
2) Would it be unbalanced compared to other ranged options?
1) I don’t believe so.
2) Same as above :3
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Let's see, at level 1, a solarian with a modest 14 in Charisma and a cheap solar crystal with soulfire could do 1d4 (2.5 average)+1 photon mode+1crystal+2charisma=6.5 average damage. That averages the same aa a d12, which is as big as any ranged attack at level 1. But it isn't more damage than a thrown spear can do, even if you increase the charisma to 16. So that sounds very strong, but not gamebreaking.
At level 6, when the solar flare goes up to 2d4, we might see 2d4 (5) +1d4 (2.5) crystal + 6 specialization + 2 photon mode + 3 charisma (though this might reasonably be looking like a +5 by this point) = 18.5 damage per shot. That compares favorably to a normal shot from a Reaction Cannon, Tactical, a level 7 KAC targeting heavy weapon. (0.5 damage behind if the heavy gunner also has photon mode).
Level 10 we've got 3d4 +1d6 crystal + 10 specialization +2 photon mode +4 charisma = 27. A standard shot from a level 10 Heavy Reaction Cannon with a level 10 wielder is about 26.5.
By this point flashing strikes has kicked in, but provides a smaller bonus than a heavy gunner harness.
So, it looks to me like this manifestation is, by quick napkin math, extremely strong. With soulfire being allowed, you could easily be looking at single target, KAC heavy weapon damage, while using only one hand and targeting EAC. That being said, I still don't think it would break the game by raising the bar on how much ranged damage output can occur, especially depending on the details of the interactions of the qi adept's level 5 abilities, and other unarmed abilities.
As for how it balances compared to other manifestations... are you comparing to solar weapon, or to the unloved and unsupported solar armor?
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How much damage does Solar Armor do?
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Comparing the closest level artillery laser, a non-unwieldy heavy weapon targeting EAC. (favoring higher level if none-on level) As well, we'll compare an armor solarian who has picked up heavy weapons, or a soldier, I think their to-hits should be similar enough. I'm going to add the damage from the higher damaging crystals as well.
At level 20, assuming 18 DEX, 16 CHA, and the second personal upgrade going to CHA.
12d4+10d4+20+6 (avg: 81 or 75) vs EAC compared to a soldier with a 9d8+20 artillery laser (avg: 60.5)...
At level 6 2d4+1d4+6+4 (avg: 17.5 or 13.5) vs 2d8+6 (avg: 15), it's better, maybe not that much better.
At level 12, 4d4+2d4+12+5 (avg: 32 or 27) vs. 4d8+12 (avg: 30), looks pretty similar on average, still a few points ahead.
Level 16, 8d4+6d4+16+6 (avg: 57 or 51) compared to 7d8+16 (avg 47.5), pulls way ahead again...
It's better than non-unwieldy heavy weapons damage per hit without the soulfire fusion. I'm pretty sure it's not intended to work with the soulfire fusion.
How much damage does Solar Armor do?
30, at the most, at the cost of dismissing your armor and losing attunement. But I wasn't saying that the two manifestations should be compared in terms of damage against each other. The comparison of how well the solar flare works as a weapon, compared to just buying a weapon, is pretty important to determine its value, though.
https://thehiddentruth.info/player/equipment/augmentations/cybernetics.php? page=Solaroverloadconduitmk1
Comparing the closest level artillery laser, a non-unwieldy heavy weapon targeting EAC. (favoring higher level if none-on level) As well, we'll compare an armor solarian who has picked up heavy weapons, or a soldier, I think their to-hits should be similar enough. I'm going to add the damage from the higher damaging crystals as well.
At level 20, assuming 18 DEX, 16 CHA, and the second personal upgrade going to CHA.
12d4+10d4+20+6 (avg: 81 or 75) vs EAC compared to a soldier with a 9d8+20 artillery laser (avg: 60.5)...
At level 6 2d4+1d4+6+4 (avg: 17.5 or 13.5) vs 2d8+6 (avg: 15), it's better, maybe not that much better.
At level 12, 4d4+2d4+12+5 (avg: 32 or 27) vs. 4d8+12 (avg: 30), looks pretty similar on average, still a few points ahead.
Level 16, 8d4+6d4+16+6 (avg: 57 or 51) compared to 7d8+16 (avg 47.5), pulls way ahead again...
It's better than non-unwieldy heavy weapons damage per hit without the soulfire fusion. I'm pretty sure it's not intended to work with the soulfire fusion.
You should assume Photon Mode damage from level 1 and Plasma Sheath damage from level 2 (admittedly the latter will take a move action to get going).
Level 6: +5, or Solar Flare 22.5/18.5 vs. 15 AL
Level 12: +9, or Solar Flare 41/36 vs 30 AL
Level 16: +11, or Solar Flare 68/62 vs 47.5 AL
Level 20: +14, or Solar Flare 95/89 vs 60.5 AL
In the heavy weapons' favor, reduced full attack penalties available from gunner's harness and a scope for range increments, plus they generally get a good special ability (the artillery laser's Penetrating is among the worst for general use) and can pick a harder to resist energy type than F/C or avoid immunity issues by going kinetic. And they don't take a move action to get their peak damage boost going by invoking Plasma Sheath.
But yeah, Solar Flare hits like a truck even without Soulfire fusion.
Why would you assume plasma sheathe? It affects only melee attacks and doesn't specifically affect solar weapons, so it isn't applicable to solar flare.
Why would you assume plasma sheathe? It affects only melee attacks and doesn't specifically affect solar weapons, so it isn't applicable to solar flare.
According to the OP:
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks.
Is this rules citation wrong?
Any solarian class features (including stellar revelations and zenith revelations) that specifically affect melee weapons (such as the flashing strikes class feature) function with your solar flare, even if they normally work only with melee attacks. Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
I conflated it with the next line about "specifically affects solar weapons" in my head, which is why I left plasma sheathe out of my quick napkin math. So I got that wrong.
With plasma sheathe working, I really can't consider soulfire not working with flare to be an issue.
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When comparing the flare to other guns, we should keep in mind that it's your keystone class feature, so to make a fair comparison, you should maybe compare to a properly built gun soldier with feats, combat styles and gear boosts, not to just a gun and nothing else.
I think it's a strong feature, but I don't think it's over the top. It's going to get solarians back on the front page again, but that's okay. They'll be facing stiff competition from vanguards on the melee front. And soldiers got lots of good stuff in SCOM too.
If every class is power-creepin', don't compare Solar Flare to a middling optimized CRB only build :P
I'm a little worried it's starting to look like they assumed that the gunner would have a maxed our level gun at every level for comparison. Under most loot schemes thats DEFINITELY not the case. You simply don't have enough credits to by the best gun at every level, it usually works out to upgrade every 3/4 levels. If the solar flare is set to be as good/slightly better than a gunner with the best level gun, they're going to be better/way better than a gunner as the gunners weapon drops below their level before rising back up.
Isn't that factored in with the Sun Gun dice damage not going up that often?
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I'm a little worried it's starting to look like they assumed that the gunner would have a maxed our level gun at every level for comparison. Under most loot schemes thats DEFINITELY not the case. You simply don't have enough credits to by the best gun at every level, it usually works out to upgrade every 3/4 levels. If the solar flare is set to be as good/slightly better than a gunner with the best level gun, they're going to be better/way better than a gunner as the gunners weapon drops below their level before rising back up.
I think you're a bit too pessimistic about how often you can afford to upgrade. You earn a lot more money than needed for WBL because the obsolescence rate is factored in. You should be able to replace ALL your equipment every 4 levels.
Or keep some of it. Most weapons and armor have a new version every 3-4 levels, but if you're willing to alternate between two different weapons, you'll also have a backup weapon with a different energy type up your sleeve. Which is not quite as easy for sun guns.
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I'm a little worried it's starting to look like they assumed that the gunner would have a maxed our level gun at every level for comparison. Under most loot schemes thats DEFINITELY not the case. You simply don't have enough credits to by the best gun at every level, it usually works out to upgrade every 3/4 levels. If the solar flare is set to be as good/slightly better than a gunner with the best level gun, they're going to be better/way better than a gunner as the gunners weapon drops below their level before rising back up.
But the Solar Flare Solarian also needs a top level crystal investment (probably with element changing fusions) to hit these numbers.
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The biggest issue I see is this sentence:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.
It's one sentence that starts specifically including soulfire, then goes on to specifically exclude soulfire.
We should take into account that heavy weapons have other mitigating factors to balance out their higher baseline damage like limited ammo capacity and high bulk penalties. Many classes also need a minimum strength to use them effectively, meaning there's a good chance the gundarian in our example would have a higher dexterity and better to hit bonus than a heavy weapon character.
Unfortunately I don't have access to COM yet so I'm a little hazy on the details for the flare in that regard. Does it need to be reloaded? Does it have an encumbrance? Is it considered a small arm in regards to weapon specialization?
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The biggest issue I see is this sentence:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.It's one sentence that starts specifically including soulfire, then goes on to specifically exclude soulfire.
Right. The second sentence defines the exceptions to the first. That's why it isn't ambiguous.
Unfortunately I don't have access to COM yet so I'm a little hazy on the details for the flare in that regard. Does it need to be reloaded? Does it have an encumbrance? Is it considered a small arm in regards to weapon specialization?
One handed. No ammo. No bulk. It is a small arm but gets full Solarian level and half of any other levels for specialization damage.
So...it's been about a month.
>.>
<.<
Anybody hear anything new on this?
