COM Clarification of Intent - Does Soulfire work with Solar Flare?


Rules Questions

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
MorikTheMad wrote:


Wait, are you arguing that "can only be applied to a solarian weapon crystal" means "can't be applied to a small arm", but does NOT mean "can't be applied to a melee weapon"?

No.

Please stop trying to pick every answer apart for a nonsensical contradictory result. This is the 5th or 6th one that hasn't been said, hinted, or implied by anything I've said but that you've leaped on as if you'd found a flaw.

What I am saying is not complicated. It is very plain, it is very straightforward. You are darting from what is written through 12 layers of implication like a literature major that hasn't slept in a week.

Dude, I said "An exception that works for solar weapons (can use soulfire despite soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon)" and you said "Soulfire does not have that restriction."

Perhaps I wasn't clear, or you misread my statement; I was not saying soulfire has a restriction that it can only go on melee weapons. I was saying soulfire has a restriction that it cannot be applied to melee weapons.

Your argument is: solar flare cannot use fusions which cannot be applied to a small arm.
A small arm cannot gain soulfire because soulfire can only go on a weapon crystal.
Solar flare cannot gain soulfire.

My argument is:

1) You can say the exact same thing about solar weapon, and arrive at an absurd conclusion:
Solar weapon cannot use fusions which cannot be applied to a melee weapon.
A melee weapon cannot gain soulfire because soulfire can only go on a weapon crystal.
Solar weapon cannot use soulfire.

2) So, since solar weapon can in fact use soulfire, what is the reason it can do so?
I am arguing that the reason is that soulfire's text is a specific exception, for weapons augmented with the fused crystal, to the general rule that a weapon cannot use fusions which can't be applied to that weapon type.

Do you disagree with this? If so, what is your explanation of why soulfire works on a solar weapon?

3) Things that are not a solar weapon cannot use things that apply only to solar weapons. (Yes, I'm aware this is a tautology.)

4)
The first part of the sentence: "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way", is establishing an exception to 3.

5) The second part of that sentence, "though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.", is putting a limitation on the exception established in 4, re-establishing the general rule that a weapon cannot use things that don't work with that weapon type.

This language is necessary to prevent a strict reading of the first sentence from leading to absurdity. I.e., preventing non-solarian class features that require a melee weapon type (such as a weapon crystal granting reach, or a fusion that can only be applied to melee weapons) from being usable by flare.

6) The soulfire exception in 2 above is more specific than that though statement.

If your disagreement is with #6, then I do understand your argument, I just disagree with it.
If your disagreement is with #1-#5, then I do not understand your argument; can you clarify?


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Actually, after thinking about this more, I agree with you.

Soulfire works with solar weapon because it specifically says it does, which works around the issue of soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon.

Solar flare can be augmented by the fused crystal, but cannot use the fusion as the though clause excludes it.

I.e., #1 in my post above is not correct.

The following thought experiment got me to this conclusion:
Pretend solar weapon and flare had item levels and could have fusions applied directly.
If a fusion said "this fusion can only be applied to a solar weapon", it would indeed exclude solar flare due to the though clause.

Though I think the intent is that solar flare should work with that fusion, it clearly does not by RAW.


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MorikTheMad wrote:

Actually, after thinking about this more, I agree with you.

Soulfire works with solar weapon because it specifically says it does, which works around the issue of soulfire not being applicable to a melee weapon.

Solar flare can be augmented by the fused crystal, but cannot use the fusion as the though clause excludes it.

I.e., #1 in my post above is not correct.

The following thought experiment got me to this conclusion:
Pretend solar weapon and flare had item levels and could have fusions applied directly.
If a fusion said "this fusion can only be applied to a solar weapon", it would indeed exclude solar flare due to the though clause.

Though I think the intent is that solar flare should work with that fusion, it clearly does not by RAW.

...Somebody spent max ranks in acrobatics. *Joke*


It seems pretty clear to me without an official ruling there is enough confusion here that whatever your GM decides for your specific game is what the mechanics the Soulfire Fusion will be under.

That being said I am in the camp of because it can't be applied to a small arm it can't be applied to the weapon as RAW, but RAI is not very clear.


Uetur wrote:

It seems pretty clear to me without an official ruling there is enough confusion here that whatever your GM decides for your specific game is what the mechanics the Soulfire Fusion will be under.

That being said I am in the camp of because it can't be applied to a small arm it can't be applied to the weapon as RAW, but RAI is not very clear.

See this post

The technical wording on flare means that by RAW things in those 3 categories (crit effect, weapon property, weapon fusion) which can only be applied to a solar weapon do NOT work on flare, as a solar weapon is not a small arm.

But it appears this was intended to work.

Original wording:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

What it seems the devs intended (my words):
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though when considering compatibility with any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion, treat the flare as a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.


In the long run I want this to work on all solar weapons. But it says

Soulfire wrote:
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.

In addition to your strength bonus.
In addition to your strength bonus.

That means it can only apply to melee solar weapons. Not even looking and lawyering the first part but in context of the last statement.


Garrett Larghi wrote:

In the long run I want this to work on all solar weapons. But it says

Soulfire wrote:
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.

In addition to your strength bonus.
In addition to your strength bonus.

That means it can only apply to melee solar weapons. Not even looking and lawyering the first part but in context of the last statement.

I guess I should put it this way, if there were any questions about the intention of Soulfire the last sentence removes all doubt that Soulfire is to be used in melee only.

Sovereign Court

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We've had a statement from the author that Solar Flare was intended to work with Soulfire. But due to a wording snafu, technically maybe it doesn't.

The only real question is whether the designer thought the same thing as the author (and also didn't catch the snafu), or whether the designer did notice the snafu but misunderstood the author's intent and thought it wasn't supposed to work together.

The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.


Ascalaphus wrote:

The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.

Designers chime in after a longer process and then not always. I don't think you can read too much into an absence of evidence on that front.

The intent may have been going for -stuff that goes on the pew pew solar flare has to make sense for a finger laser- , but I cannot work through the words that are there in any way except to exclude soulfire.

Also, I think in theory a solar flare solarion with soulfire runs neck and neck with a ranged soldier, but in practice the free, always fully upgraded solar flare is pretty far ahead. But my sense of class balance isn't very good evidence either.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

The only statement about intent that we've had was that of the author. The designer has said nothing to contradict it.

Designers chime in after a longer process and then not always. I don't think you can read too much into an absence of evidence on that front.

Yeah, but Xenocrat is doing the reverse:

Xenocrat wrote:
This is very strange. Notwithstanding the inability of many people to understand it, the language as published clearly does forbid soulfire to work with a solar flare. It's quite possible the developer reviewing the turnover thought about the soulfire issue, correctly interpreted the text, and accepted that's what he wanted.

I think that's unreasonable. In the absence of the designer chiming in, the author is the best authority.

The assumption that the designers always know what they're doing and never misread something doesn't really hold up, if you look at past books and errata discussions.

Xenocrat's theory that the designer saw the subtlety in the RAW, decided it meant exactly what it meant, but didn't realize that wasn't what the author meant, and the published the entire text without changes to make it more explicit - I think that's a bit too much of a conspiracy theory.

I think it's much more reasonable that the subtleties of exactly how Soulfire is formulated (which works unlike any other fusion) just slipped by. Because this really is a problem most people don't notice until they go over the sentence with a microscope looking for problems.


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Your problem is that you don’t understand here is no subtlety in the rule. It doesn’t allow Soul Fire. I don’t know if it’s the failure of people to learn how to diagram sentences in high school or take formal logic in college (I got a 100), but it’s not unclear or ambiguous. It’s only motivation and some degree of incompetence at reading comprehension that is confusing people.

I assume the developer wasn’t incompetent. I’m open to a simple mistake on a quick read through, but I’d need the developer to say that’s what happened.


English language is always ambiguous.

I see this as a problem with the wording of Soulfire. Does 'solar weapon' mean specifically the Solar Weapon manifestation type, or does it mean any Solar Manifestation that is able to do damage?

Soulfire was added first, in Armory. At that time Solar Weapon manifestation was the only manifestation type that did damage and was the only manifestation type that could be affected by a Solar Weapon Crystal with a Soulfire fusion.

When Solar Flare was created, they tried to get Solar Weapon Crystals to also be able to affect the Solar Flare. Hence the rules text 'Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way'.

So now we have an overloading of terms. 'Solar Weapon' is both a specific type of Solar Manifestation (as seen in the class description for Solarian), and a generic term for any Solar Manifestation types that deal damage (RAI from Solarian Weapon Crystals and the Solar Flare manifestation, and used by the Soulfire Fusion).

The concession from MorikTheMad at the top of this page is due only to the argument that Soulfire can only affect Solar Weapons because the text of Soulfire specifically state that it does so. But the text of the rules for Solar Flare says that Solar Weapon Crystals can affect them too. So if a Soulfire-augmented Solar Weapon Crystal is able to affect a Solar Weapon manifestation, why wouldn't it be able to also affect a Solar Flare manifestation? The only reason to say that it doesn't seems to be that Soulfire specifically says 'When you hit a target with a solar weapon...'.

Is that actually intended to be specific to just the Solar Weapon manifestation? At the time that the Soulfire rule was written, Solar Weapon manifestation was the only one that did any damage. Now we have three.

Or is it instead that the rule for Soulfire should include any Solar Manifestation that is able to do damage? Or maybe just the Solar Manifestations that duplicate the effects of other weapon types (thus excluding Solar Shield)?

So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.

And yes, I think I am doing a fine job of parsing out the English language, thank you very much.

----------

Also,

Shouldn't the Solar Weapon manifestation type also say that 'it can't gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can't be applied to an advanced melee weapon'? It probably would if Solar Weapon Crystals, Soulfire, and Solar Flare all existed at the time Solar Weapon was written.


hard to spell kitty wrote:
So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.

What about the exception from things that won't affect small arms?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
hard to spell kitty wrote:
So yes, I think that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare. And with Solar Shield for that matter.
What about the exception from things that won't affect small arms?

You mean this text here:

Quote:
it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

That is even more ambiguous. Off the cuff, I see two ways of reading that.

First:

it can't gain any:
* weapon special property
* critical hit effect
* weapon fusion
that can't be applied to a small arm.

Or:

it can't gain any:
* weapon special property
* critical hit effect
* weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm
.

In the first case it looks like it is restricting the effects allowed to be applied to a Solar Flare to be effects that are normally able to affect small arm weapons. This prevents adding effects like knockdown or something similar.

In the second case, it prevents all special properties and critical hit effects at all. It only allows weapon fusions that can be applied to a small arm.

---------

Language semantics aside:

What I find most odd about that last clause 'it can't gain any ... weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm' is that a Solar Flare also can't gain any weapon fusion that can be applied to a small arm either. Weapon fusions can't be applied to a Solar Manifestation.

So what is the intent with this?

In my RAI reading of the entire sentence 'Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.' is that it is trying to prevent effects from existing Solar Weapon Crystals that are not applicable to a ranged weapon, such as the Graviton Crystal that adds a knockdown critical hit effect. So (as far as I know) knockdown isn't permitted on a small arm, the Graviton Crystal wouldn't work on a Solar Flare even though a Solar Flare can generally use weapon crystals.

That is my understanding of the meaning of that restriction clause.


Here is what I eventually reached in my mind: You can argue that the intent of that clause is to restrict it to things that can apply to small arms in the same way that it is understood the solar weapon (melee) can only get things that can be applied to melee weapons.

But the way the clause is written goes further. I don't see any reasonable way to argue that a crit effect/weapon property/fusion that said "This can only be applied to a solar weapon" would be applicable to a solar flare, due to the though clause (because a small arm isn't a solar weapon).

Regarding knockdown, there is no text in either the crit description or the graviton crystal that I can see which would prevent its use on a small arm.


breithauptclan wrote:


That is even more ambiguous. Off the cuff, I see two ways of reading that.

Since the weapon fusion is whats under discussion, both ways of reading it give the same result.

Either it can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soul fire) or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire. You don't just need to argue ambiguity in the text (although I don't think there's much to be argued there between the two meanings) you also need ambiguity between a yes and no answer on soulfire, which your different readings here don't provide.

Quote:
What I find most odd about that last clause 'it can't gain any ... weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm' is that a Solar Flare also can't gain any weapon fusion that can be applied to a small arm either. Weapon fusions can't be applied to a Solar Manifestation.

No.

It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)

This is why we keep saying you can't read the sentence to include the pew pew lasers working with soulfire without tossing the baby out with the bath water.


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You could argue soulfire's wording makes it compatible with any weapon that can use weapon crystals in the same manner as solar weapons do.
I.e., it is not prohibited from applying to a small arm, so long as that small arm is able to use weapon crystals the same way a solar weapon can.

With the understanding that fusions and solar weapon interact like this:
- Put fusion on a weapon crystal (always allowed)
- When augmenting with that crystal, check if the fusion is compatible with solar weapon. I.e., can it be applied to a melee weapon, can it be applied to a weapon dealing whatever damage type your solar weapon deals, etc. If not, the fusion doesn't work.

Soulfire's text replaces the usual 'is this fusion compatible with a melee weapon dealing <whatever> type of damage' (which would normally exclude soulfire, as a melee weapon is not a weapon crystal), with 'this fusion works in a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal'.

Soulfire's more specific compatibility check should also be used with flare. I.e., soulfire is not excluded from being used on small arms; it is excluded from being used on weapons that cannot be augmented with a weapon crystal. If a small arm can be augmented with a weapon crystal the same way solar weapon can, then that small arm can benefit from soulfire.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:


No.

It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)

This is why we keep saying you can't read the sentence to include the pew pew lasers working with soulfire without tossing the baby out with the bath water.

Yeah but this is where the leap of logic into the abyss happens. First you have to accept the fudge that the devs admitted to that lets you apply fusions to crystals at all. Then you get Soulfire which is a fusion which can only ever be applied to crystals. But when you then get Solar Flare and the author saying it's intended to be possible, you grind to a halt on the technicalities.

But if you want to be technical about it, this topic is "clarification of intent", and the intent of the author is clear. If the devs remain silent, then the author is all you have to get by for intent.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Either it can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soul fire) or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire.

Hold up there...

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It has been clarified that you can put fusions on the solarion crystal, and assuming the devs are not jerkass genies or math teachers, they can be put on the crystal AND then work with the solar manifestation they make. (and not just be more useful in bashing someone in the head with a pretty shiny rock)

Exactly. Why shouldn't this affect Solar Flare also.

Either it (Solar Flare) can't gain a weapon fusion at all (in which case it can't get soulfire), or It can't gain (a weapon fusion that can't be applied to a small arm) in which case.. it can't gain soul fire. it can gain the effects of a Solar Weapon Crystal (as the rules say it can) which has the Soulfire fusion applied to the crystal.

I'm not trying to put Soulfire directly on the Solar Flare.


breithauptclan wrote:


I'm not trying to put Soulfire directly on the Solar Flare.

A The solar whack you thingy

B The crystal

c The

But you are trying to put the effect from the soulfire onto the flare without apparently stopping to check the legality between A and C

This doesn't work unless you can dance between the ideas of "Im putting the fusion on the crystal" and "I'm putting the fusion on the weapon"

Quote:
it can gain the effects of a Solar Weapon Crystal (as the rules say it can) which has the Soulfire fusion applied to the crystal.

If this was the case that you didn't need to check for compatibility between the flare and the fusions effect the prohibition would be entirely meaningless because it could never work.


Ascalaphus wrote:


Yeah but this is where the leap of logic into the abyss happens. First you have to accept the fudge that the devs admitted to that lets you apply fusions to crystals at all.

Which is a common sense, non technical answer that the rules use most of the time.

Quote:
Then you get Soulfire which is a fusion which can only ever be applied to crystals. But when you then get Solar Flare and the author saying it's intended to be possible, you grind to a halt on the technicalities.

There's two problems with that idea.

1) I'm not seeing ANY kind of wording ambiguity here. Technical, non technical, both break the idea. If I keep the persnicket level consistent the result is a no.

2) We're not just dealing with something the author wrote, we're also dealing with its interaction with another thing out in the system.

Quote:


But if you want to be technical about it, this topic is "clarification of intent", and the intent of the author is clear. If the devs remain silent, then the author is all you have to get by for intent.

point 2 in particalar works against that idea


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I can see the argument from both sides, kind of like one of those optical illusions that have two different images in it.

Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?

With a normal fusion, you apply it to the crystal, augment the weapon with the crystal, and then check the fusion's requirements against the weapon to see if it can use it. Does everyone agree with that?

With soulfire, there is a specific rules exception in the text. Instead of checking the fusions requirements against the weapon (can only be applied to a weapon crystal, a solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so it doesn't work), the only requirement for this fusion is that it is applied to a crystal that is augmenting a solar weapon.

And here is where I think the two sides diverge.

One side says that you do have to do the normal fusion requirement check against flare, see that a small arm is not a weapon crystal, and so it doesn't work.
In other words, something covered by the 'though' (crit|prop|fusion) that says 'this only works on solar weapon' cannot work on solar flare, because a small arm is not a solar weapon. If there were a hypothetical critical hit effect that said "this only works with solar weapon", this viewpoint would say it doesn't work, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.

The other side is that you apply the same specific rule from soulfire; you don't compare "small arm is not a weapon crystal', just like you don't do that on solar weapon ("a melee weapon is not a weapon crystal"). Solar flare is augmented by the fused crystal, the fusion says it works on solar weapon when it is augmented by the crystal, flare can be augmented by the weapon crystal in the same way as solar weapon can, so it is affected in the same way. By this argument, soulfire is not prohibited from being applied to small arms; it is prohibited from working with things that aren't augmentable by a solarian weapon crystal. A small arm that can be augmented by a solarian weapon crystal is thus compatible with soulfire.
In other words, something (crit|prop|fusion) that says "this only works on solar weapons" would work on flare the same way, so long as that thing didn't have other requirements that exclude a small arm.

The first viewpoint could be summarized as: Flare doesn't get to pretend its a solar weapon for (crit|prop|fusion) that only affect solar weapon, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.

The second viewpoint could be summarized as: For crit|prop|fusion, flare is treated identically to the solar weapon, with one exception: it is a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.


Morik the mad wrote:
Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?

No. It works the same it just spells out the difference.


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I wonder how long people are gonna just keep repeating the exact same arguments back at each other before they get bored.


MorikTheMad wrote:

The first viewpoint could be summarized as: Flare doesn't get to pretend its a solar weapon for (crit|prop|fusion) that only affect solar weapon, because a small arm isn't a solar weapon.

The second viewpoint could be summarized as: For crit|prop|fusion, flare is treated identically to the solar weapon, with one exception: it is a small arm rather than an advanced melee weapon.

Pretty much.

Somehow the developers are supposed to see the future and write their rules accordingly. Because if there is any addition of subtypes to things like Solar Manifestation, then all of the other existing rules stop working the way they are intended to.

So when the Soulfire fusion says

Quote:
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal

it must obviously be referencing specifically the Solar Weapon Manifestation, not any weaponized Solar Manifestation such as Solar Flare.


breithauptclan wrote:

So when the Soulfire fusion says

Quote:
When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal

it must obviously be referencing specifically the Solar Weapon Manifestation, not any weaponized Solar Manifestation such as Solar Flare.

The italicized part ignores that quote.

COM wrote:

Anything that specifcally afects solar weapons (such as

solarian weapon crystals) afects your solar fare in the same
way,
though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical
hit efect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

The bolded part makes it still not work. Though writer (not developer) intent was that it would work.


It is still ambiguous.

In the case of the rules text for Solar Flare and how that interacts with Soulfire, it becomes contradictory. It depends on which of these two clauses takes priority.

Solar Flare wrote:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

or

Solar Flare wrote:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.

I'm not trying to say that the rules reading that prevents Soulfire on a Solar Flare is wrong. I'm saying that the rules reading that allows Soulfire on a Solar Flare is also valid. That is what ambiguous means. There is more than one valid interpretation.

Here is another attempt to summarize this alternate reading:

Soulfire specifically says that it affects solar weapon. Solar Flare specifically says that anything that affects a solar weapon affects the Solar Flare in the same way. This specific rule set overrides the general rule in Solar Flare preventing applying weapon fusions that can't affect a small arm weapon.


There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Morik the mad wrote:
Soulfire works a little differently than how other fusions work with a solar weapon. Does everyone agree with that?
No. It works the same it just spells out the difference.

I think you are missing something here, or I'm not understanding you.

Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar weapon?
1) Put the fusion on a crystal.
2) Put the crystal in the weapon.
3) Check the augmented weapon's properties against the fusion's requirements, if the requirements are met, the fusion works normally. Otherwise the fusion does not have any effect.

If so, consider, say, a tactical fusion on solar weapon.
1) Tactical fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Tactical fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "You can add the tactical fusion only to a ranged weapon", the solar weapon is not a ranged weapon, so the fusion does not have any effect.

(A)
If you do the exact same thing with soulfire, it doesn't work on anything:
1) Soulfire fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.

This is obviously wrong, and I don't think you are arguing that the above is how you check whether soulfire works on the weapon or not.

BUT, you seem to be arguing that the above IS how you check whether it works on flare.

(B)

Instead, soulfire has a more specific rule overriding the general way to check whether the fusion is active. That more specific rule is "When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion". Rewriting the above steps with this override in mind:
1) Soulfire fusion applied to crystal, fine.
2) Crystal augments weapon, fine.
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion is on a crystal augmenting a solar weapon, so the fusion functions when hitting things with that augmented solar weapon. (Note that the fusion is NOT disabled due to the solar weapon not being a weapon crystal.)

-------------------------------------------------------

The viewpoint that soulfire doesn't work on flare seems to be saying that you use process B when determining whether it works on solar weapon, but use process A when determining whether it works on solar flare.
The argument is something like, flare can't act like a solar weapon augmented by the crystal in this case (so can't be affected by 'When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion'), because the 'though' clause hard stops the fusion from working at all, because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal.

The viewpoint that soulfire does work on flare uses process B on both--flare is treated as if it is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal, there is no other requirement on this fusion that would rule out a small arm that is treated the same as solar weapon regarding crystal augmentation, so the fusion works.

EDIT: Another thought experiment to consider.
If a new manifestation, "Solar bashing stick" were created, which functions like a basic melee weapon, gets some extraneous bonuses in some situations (say, to combat maneuvers) to differentiate it from the advanced-melee-weapon solar weapon, with the text "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar bashing stick in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a basic melee weapon", would you say that soulfire doesn't work on this thing either?


MorikTheMad wrote:

.

Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar

This isn't even wrong.

At no point in the process is the idea to make a hard set of rules that you then follow like a jerkass genie. (and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out that it goes on the crystal but applies to the weapon)

At no point is the idea to turn a very complicated and straightforward process into an idea so complicated it breaks, and then blame the original idea rather than the rube goldberg process read into it.

You're relying on the idea that there is something different about the soulfire fusion when I'm telling you its the same It's just worded differently. You cannot change that premise and then claim its an internal contradiction with my reasoning. Which is what you're doing here

Quote:
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.

The fusion is made to go on a solar weapon. you check legality with the solar weapon. Its fine.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a.. no wait.

If you cannot put the fusion on a hand cannon, it won't work with solar flare.

Soulfire won't work with a hand cannon

It won't work on solar flare.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
MorikTheMad wrote:

.

Is this the understood process for fusions interacting with solar

This isn't even wrong.

At no point in the process is the idea to make a hard set of rules that you then follow like a jerkass genie. (and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out that it goes on the crystal but applies to the weapon)

At no point is the idea to turn a very complicated and straightforward process into an idea so complicated it breaks, and then blame the original idea rather than the rube goldberg process read into it.

I cannot make sense of any of that. If you have an argument or something for why what I said is incorrect, please present it. I read this as an attack against how I am arguing, without attempting to refute what I said.

There is some set of rules for how you apply these things.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


You're relying on the idea that there is something different about the soulfire fusion when I'm telling you its the same It's just worded differently. You cannot change that premise and then claim its an internal contradiction with my reasoning. Which is what you're doing here

You just got done saying "and even THEN get wrong because soulfire specifically points out..." --> that is the thing that is different.

What premise am I changing?

Soulfire specifically doesn't check the 'can only be applied to weapon crystals' requirement against the solar weapon the crystal augments. But you are arguing that the flare must check this requirement (and fail because a small arm isn't a weapon crystal), despite being affected by weapon crystals in the same way.
I sort of understand your argument--the 'though' clause forces a check against the general fusion requirement, and fails, so the flare won't be affected in the same way.

I don't understand how you don't see the other side of this--that the flare uses the crystal (the though clause doesn't turn this off), the fusion gets checked, the question 'is a small arm incompatible with this fusion' is checked, and the answer is 'no, this small arm is augmented with a weapon crystal and is treated as a solar weapon, it meets all the requirements of this fusion.'

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:
3) Soulfire fusion requirement checked against weapon. The fusion says "The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.", solar weapon is not a weapon crystal, so the fusion doesn't work.

The fusion is made to go on a solar weapon. you check legality with the solar weapon. Its fine.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a.. no wait.

If you cannot put the fusion on a hand cannon, it won't work with solar flare.

Soulfire won't work with a hand cannon

It won't work on solar flare.

If you cannot put the fusion on a melee weapon, it won't work with solar weapon.

Soulfire won't work with a melee weapon.

It won't work on solar weapon.

^ How is your argument regarding flare different from this? You are disregarding the text of how soulfire checks compatibility.

You can put the fusion on a hand cannon, if that hand cannon is treated as a solar weapon. Which it is: "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way"
The only requirements of the soulfire fusion to work with a weapon are:
- The fusion is on a crystal
- The weapon using the crystal is a solar weapon.

The 'though' clause prevents silly, as you would call it, jerk-ass genie arguments like "I can put interposing fusion on flare, because I put it on the crystal and put the crystal in flare, and this would work on solar weapon, and so it gets treated the same way.'
The though clause would prevent this--interposing can only go on melee weapons, so it doesn't work.


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MorikTheMad wrote:
How is your argument regarding flare different from this? You are disregarding the text of how soulfire checks compatibility.

No for two reasons.

One, for at least the fifth time, soulfire is written to spell out it absolutely works with solar weapons at a time when people weren't sure solar weapons could get fusions. That wording does NOT create any difference in the effect, at all, about how it works. Arguing for a difference means that no fusion BUT soulfire works on solar weapons.

Two, The restrictions on the solar flare are clearly more specific than the allowances (they would be entirely meaningless if they weren't). Solar flare is NOT a solar weapon. The part that allows
the solar flare to get something that only goes on a solar weapon specifically denies anything that won't go on a small arm.

The only way for something to be more specific than solar flares restriction is to specifically mention solar flare and.. it doesn't. Time travel not being invented yet...

Soulfire CAN hop on a weapon crystal. It can go to a solar weapon. It CAN"T get to the solar flare. The ability to jump from solar weapon to solar flare is dependent on being able to go on a small-arm.


Quote:
The ability to jump from solar weapon to solar flare is dependent on being able to go on a small-arm.

I think this is where the contention lies.

Viewpoint 1 says "can this fusion be applied to an arbitrary small arm" -> no -> doesn't work.

Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.

'When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion' is satisfied by the flare, per:
"Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way".

Is flare a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal? Yes, per the above. (Fusions don't even come into it yet; the though statement is not triggered for this part--the flare definitely counts as a solar weapon augmented by the weapon crystal.)

Can it use the soulfire fusion? Here the though statement comes into play.
Some fusions have a blacklist condition, such as "you cannot put this on ranged weapons". Some have a whitelist condition, such as "this can only be put on melee weapons".
The soulfire fusion has a whitelist condition: it works if you hit something with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal.

Do you disagree that the fusion is treated as "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal"? If you don't disagree with that, then I don't see how you can argue that the fusion's requirements aren't met. It works with any weapon that is treated as "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal".


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breithauptclan wrote:
The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.

It's one sentence, and the clauses are not contradictory. The second half is a clarification of the first.

For example, a solarian weapon crystal (and the weapon it's attached to) can gain these effects:

The defending fusion
The soulfire fusion
The menacing fusion
The throwing fusion
The block special property
The reach special property
The shell special property

The ', though it can't gain' excludes those effects from the solar flare with that same crystal getting those effects.


Garretmander wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
The first says that Soulfire should work with Solar Flare, the seconds says that it shouldn't.

It's one sentence, and the clauses are not contradictory. The second half is a clarification of the first.

For example, a solarian weapon crystal (and the weapon it's attached to) can gain these effects:

The defending fusion
The soulfire fusion
The menacing fusion
The throwing fusion
The block special property
The reach special property
The shell special property

The ', though it can't gain' excludes those effects from the solar flare with that same crystal getting those effects.

I understand for all of those except soulfire.

If a fusion said "this can only go on weapons that deal fire damage" you wouldn't say "a small arm is not necessarily a weapon that deals fire damage, so it doesn't work". You would check whether the specific small arm you are applying it to does fire damage.
Similarly, when soulfire says "this works when you hit someone with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal", you check this against flare, and this condition is met--the flare is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal.

This doesn't work for any of the others, because when you check the fusion's conditions, they categorically exclude small arms (or larger categories small arms are part of, such as ranged weapons).


MorikTheMad wrote:


Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.

This is more than a mite circular.

And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work


BigNorseWolf wrote:
MorikTheMad wrote:


Viewpoint 2 says "can this fusion be applied to a small arm that is treated as a solar weapon with regard to weapon crystals", and the answer is yes--the only requirement for the soulfire fusion to work is that it is fused to a crystal, and that crystal is augmenting a solar weapon.

This is more than a mite circular.

How so?

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...

--> Solar flare can be augmented with crystals, and things that affect a solar weapon augmented with crystals affect the solar flare the same way.

I.e., for the purposes of things that say "when you do X with a solar weapon augmented by a weapon crystal", the flare is affected the same way.

Soulfire's requirement is that you "hit something with a solar weapon augmented with the fused crystal".

Solar flare meets this requirement. The fusion doesn't care whether its a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, a thrown weapon, a grenade, or a piece of ammo. All it cares about is that you "hit something with a solar weapon augmented with the fused crystal". Flare meets this requirement.

Quote:


And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work

The notion that the fusion being only applicable to the crystal discounts it from being applied to a small arm, despite that small arm being augmentable with the crystal is, to use your words, a jerk-ass genie argument.

The fusion is not restricted from being put on a small arm any more than it is restricted from being put on a melee weapon.

All of the requirements of the fusion are met:
- The fusion is on a crystal
- You are hitting something with "a solar weapon augmented by the crystal"--flare counts as a solar weapon augmented by the crystal due to the first part of that sentence (Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...)


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MorikTheMad wrote:

If a fusion said "this can only go on weapons that deal fire damage" you wouldn't say "a small arm is not necessarily a weapon that deals fire damage, so it doesn't work". You would check whether the specific small arm you are applying it to does fire damage.

Similarly, when soulfire says "this works when you hit someone with a solar weapon augmented by the fused crystal", you check this against flare, and this condition is met--the flare is a solar weapon augmented by the crystal.

You've skipped a step. You aren't checking if the fusion's effect works with a solar weapon, then applying the fusion.

You are checking if the fusion can be applied on a small arm, which it can't.


Garretmander wrote:

You've skipped a step. You aren't checking if the fusion's effect works with a solar weapon, then applying the fusion.

You are checking if the fusion can be applied on a small arm, which it can't.

When you check if a fusion's effect works (with any weapon), you check that all of the fusion's requirements are met.

In the case of, say, the interposing fusion & solar weapon, you would go through these steps:
- Put interposing on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Interposing's requirement is "You can add the interposing fusion only to a melee weapon." Is this requirement met? -> Yes (despite the fact that a weapon crystal is not a melee weapon)-> Fusion works.

Going through these same steps with flare:
- Put interposing on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Interposing's requirement is "You can add the interposing fusion only to a melee weapon." Is this requirement met? -> No, this fusion can't be applied to a small arm because a small arm isn't a melee weapon -> Fusion does not work.

Now with soulfire on solar weapon:
- Put soulfire on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Soulfire's requirements are
1) The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals.
and
2) When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, <fusion has effects>
- Is the fusion on a crystal? Yes. Are you augmenting a solar weapon with the crystal? Yes. Fusion works, despite the fact that a solar weapon is not a solarian weapon crystal.

Now with soulfire on solar flare:
- Put soulfire on crystal, fine
- Put crystal in weapon, fine
- Is the fusion on a crystal? Yes. Are you augmenting a solar weapon with the crystal? Yes, per "Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way", the flare is treated as a solar weapon augmented with the crystal.
Is there anything in these requirements that prevents a (small arm) solar weapon augmented with the crystal from fulfilling these requirements? No. Is the solar flare a (small arm) solar weapon for the purposes of text that references/affects solar weapons? Yes.
So it doesn't fall afoul of the 'though' clause, because this particular small arm meets the fusion's requirements.

I don't see how you can argue on the one hand that things like "melee only" can go on crystals and transfer the requirement through to the weapon, but "a weapon crystal isn't a small arm"...
Either requirements all transfer through (so if it says crystal only, any weapon augmented with the crystal meets that particular requirement, and if it says melee only, you can put it on a crystal and check against the augmented weapon), or none of them do.
The argument that a small arm isn't a crystal, so flare can't use crystal-only fusions, is very similar to saying "you can't put interposing on solar weapon, because it has to go on the crystal, and the crystal isn't a melee weapon".


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Can I source this thread for my Advanced English Language Theory class?


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Morik the mad wrote:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...

EXCEPT things that won't work on small arms.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

This is more than a mite circular.

And completely ignores why people say it doesn't work

Hmm..... Actually, I think that is because of the nature of the contention.

What is under contention is the meaning of 'solar weapon' in the Soulfire rules. Does it mean just Solar Weapon, or any solar weapon? Also the specifics of the restrictions on Solar Flare.

But with those being ambiguous (or being considered ambiguous), the meanings of those have to be decided on in order to come to a conclusion. And the conclusion is rather fixed once those are decided on.

So to someone who reads those points under contention differently, it will feel like they are being decided on by axiom. They become an assumption in the logic that forms the conclusion.

So it always feels like circular logic to someone who reads those contended points differently.

From both sides.

And that is just the nature of ambiguity.


Lethallin wrote:
Can I source this thread for my Advanced English Language Theory class?

Might be a fun topic for the teacher.

MoriktheMad wrote:
When you check if a fusion's effect works (with any weapon), you check that all of the fusion's requirements are met.

No. I would assert that you check if a fusion can be applied to a small arm first and only. Then you apply it, and then check if it does anything. Such as fusions that only work with weapons that deal bludgeoning damage.

After all, you can have a defending fusion on a solar crystal affecting a solar weapon, then using extra manifestation, turn that weapon into a flare, and the fusion ceases to work.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Morik the mad wrote:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way...
EXCEPT things that won't work on small arms.

no, not 'things', only these 3: fusions/crit effects/weapon props.

Augmenting with a crystal is not one of those. Any text referring to "a solar weapon augmented by a crystal' applies to solar flare the same way it applies to a solar weapon.

----------------

Can you put interposing fusion on a weapon crystal? What is your rationale for this, given that "a weapon crystal is not a melee weapon, interposing can only go on melee weapons".

If the rationale is that the crystal transfers the fusion's requirements to the weapon, then the only reasonable way to interpret "crystal only" fusions, is that they work with any weapon (be it a small arm, melee weapon, or what have you) that can be augmented with the crystal.

If you are going to argue that "crystal only fusion cannot work with a small arm, even one that can be augmented with the crystal", how are you on the other hand arguing "melee only fusions can be applied to a crystal, even though it isn't a melee weapon"?


BigNorseWolf wrote:

There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.

I'm failing to parse this one.

No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.

And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.

i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?


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breithauptclan wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.

I'm failing to parse this one.

No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.

And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.

i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?

Soulfire fusions work on solarian weapon crystals. They do not work on small arms.

Therefore, they do not work on solar flare manifestations, despite writer intent.


breithauptclan wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

There's no or. Both the though and the sentences very existence put the no non small arms stuff as the more specific.

I'm failing to parse this one.

No, there isn't an 'or'. But there is a 'though'.

And with Soulfire we have an item that does work on Solar Manifestations, but doesn't work on small arms. So why does the restriction take precedence? Why not the permission? There are plenty of other things that the restriction is restricting. So the restriction isn't unnecessary even if it doesn't apply to Soulfire.

i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?

I think they are saying this:

Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

You cannot apply soulfire directly to a small arm, because it can only go on a weapon crystal.

What I am saying is: "applied to" should be read as "works with" given the funkyness in general around fusions on crystals. And I don't think it is correct to argue soulfire doesn't "work with" a small arm that "is affected the same way" as solar weapon by text referring to 'a solar weapon augmented with a crystal'. (Unlike, say, interposing, which does not work with small arms, whether or not they are able to augment with crystals. Soulfire doesn't categorically exclude small arms; it categorically excludes any weapon that can't be augmented with the fused crystal.)

Yet, they are also saying "you can apply interposing to a crystal, even though a crystal is not a melee weapon".


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breithauptclan wrote:


i.e., is there some reason other than your personal preference to say that the restriction overrides the permission?

1) that's how the sentence is written.

Look, I'm all for reading things two different ways. Most of our conversations are picking apart between reading A and reading B. But this sentence as written drops that reading out like an F(x) problem.

2) there's no point putting restrictions on something that you can evade. There is no point for the words being there unless they restrict the first part of the sentence, they're meaningless.

I personal preferences for the RESULT is a mild no.

If they decide to say that we intended a larger view "no nonsensical stuff on the finger lasers" I'm fine with that. But I don't think you can get there from the wording


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This might not make total sense to people, but this sentence is essentially an AND logic gate:

COM wrote:
Anything that specifically affects solar weapons (such as solarian weapon crystals) affects your solar flare in the same way, though it can’t gain any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion that can’t be applied to a small arm.

italic = input A

bold = input B.

Soulfire is a fusion that affects a solar weapon. A = TRUE

Souflire is a fusion that cannot affect a small arm. B = FALSE

A B = Output (T/F)
F F = F
T F = F
F T = F
T T = T

In this scenario, A is true, and B is false, therefore, the AND gate outputs FALSE, the soulfire fusion does not apply.

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