Multiclass Arcanist with Rogue


Advice


I've looked around the interwebs and found some things on multiclassing, some for and some against. Despite this, there are some benefits for a caster to dip into melee and vice versa, or two melee (fighter+rogue) or two casters (wizard+sorcerer).

What I see are fewer examples of arcanists multiclassing with a melee combatant. I ask because I'm in the midst creating a backup character who's arcanist 2/rogue (unchained) 1 for flavor/story but also mechanistically so my squishy caster has better ability hide/stealth/escape when need be.

I already see some downsides to this, namely that I won't have access to higher level spells as quickly (4th level to get 2nd level spells??). Mechanically, this would seem like a good enough reason to stick with a pure arcanist and just get a good archetype (School Savant or Occultist), but the lure of a good story feels too good to ignore.

My questions are:

1. What are other considerations for multiclassing an arcanist, and are these enough to not multiclass?
2. How would you "successfully" multiclass an arcanist with an unchained rogue (e.g. how many levels in unchained rogue, what unchained rogue talents to pick up, what skills to focus on, etc.)?
3. What arcanist archetype would be good (I know School Savant and Occultist are really good, but would they still apply to an arcanist/unchained rogue character?)
4. Did you build the character's story first and the build second with any success?

I'm quite (very) new to the game, so if you're going to explain some game mechanics, I may ask a lot more questions to clarify what some things mean. Being new also reflects why I would focus on story and flavor more than I would mechanics, so help me understand the balance between the two.


The reason this is done so rarely, is there's already a class or two that combines them very effectively, the Magus and the Bloodrager. check those out for inspiration first, imo


1. Never multiclass unless you have an overwhelmingly exceptional benefit out of doing so.

2. If I want to cast spells, 0 levels of Unchained Rogue. If I wanted a bunch of class skills, 1 level. If I wanted to exploit a Rogue Talent, 2 levels. But usually, very much 0.

3. Not much change as they all get equally worse when you have less spells.

4. Yes, I mostly always do that. Pathfinder has BLOAT. A LOT of bloat. It's much easier to find a strong single-class build for a concept, than to tune a multiclass build.

In summary: multiclassing is very bad in this game (except perhaps in its early stages and for specific cheesy builds), and it's much easier to find a single-class option for your build.


Considering there are around 36 classes in 1st edition Pathfinder without counting archetypes there is very little reason to multiclass. When you factor in the archetypes there are even more choices. For the most part almost any concept can be done without multiclassing. For example if you want a spell casting rouge you could go with the Eldritch Scoundrel rouge archetype, or the Archeologist bard archetype. While neither one would give you exactly what the Arcanist Rouge combination does you would end up with a very similar character that is probably more useful and definitely more powerful.

The VMC rules also give another way to pick up class abilities from another class without having to sacrifice the progression of the class abilities of the first class. Sure lose a about half your feats is something that a lot of players will find difficult, but it is often better that trying to balance out two classes.

The last way to add some versatility to your character is through feats. Eldritch Heritage for example can give you access to some of the abilities of a sorcerer. There are also feats that allow you to pick up some fighter abilities.

With these options there is little reason to use the traditional multiclassing. If there is something you really want to do that does require multiclassing the best bet is to have the fewest levels in the secondary class as you can. This is especially true with any kind of spell caster. Usually taking more than two levels of a non-caster weaken the character to the point of being not worth playing. Even taking a single level will diminish your character.


I have a 2 builds that combine Arcanist and Rogue, and I think they're awesome. I think if you are primarily a Spellcaster, though, you usually end up being most powerful just by single classing. My character build is mostly a Rogue with a dip into Arcanist. And that unlocks a lot of sweetness.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Never multiclass unless you have an overwhelmingly exceptional benefit out of doing so.

The key to a Rogue inflicting Damage in Melee is that Sneak Attack Damage. Recall your Human Snakebite Striker Brawler you showed me on that Tiefling Brawler thread? In situations where you get your SA Damage, your Damage can be considerable.

Well, there is an Arcane Exploit called Dimensional Slide.

Weables wrote:
the Magus and the Bloodrager. check those out for inspiration first, imo

It's good advice to check out those gish classes, but as far as I know, neither is a path to Dimensional Slide.

Dimensional Slide is a tactical teleport: 10' Range. But can be done as part of your move, and it does not end your turn the way Dimension Door does. So as early as level 2, you can approach your opponent then teleport onto the other side of them as part of your Move, then reappear in in a Flanking Position, and unlock your Sneak Attack much more often.

Rogues only have 1 Good Save: Reflex, and that is the least important Save to have good. A single level dip in Arcanist gives you a +2 to your Will Save, and that is the most important save to have good.

Use Magical Device is considered to be a very important Skill to take Ranks in, but all the DCs for UMD are very high: the lowest DC is 20. In order to use a magic wand reliably through UMD, you need a huge investiture of Skill Points. But take only a 1 level dip in Arcanist, and you can use any Sorcerer or Wizard Wand you want, and you don't even need a skill check. There are a whole lot of self-buffs that are now available to you without Attacks of Opportunity, including Disguise Self--+10 on Disguise Checks, Grease +10 on Escape Artist Checks to escape a Grapple, and Greater Invisibility--when you are Invisible, you automatically get your Sneak Attack Damage. Arcanists also get those Cantrips that make Ranged Touch Attacks, and if you have a hidy-hole to snipe from, you are making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC, so you also get your Sneak Attack Damage! Scorching Ray is another Wand you can use. Also a Ranged Touch Attack that does 4d6. Take Vital Strike, and it does 8d6. And you can get your Sneak Attack Damage like with those Cantrips.

I think the combination of the above constitutes "an overwhelmingly exceptional benefit out of doing so."


Lalochezic wrote:
I've looked around the interwebs and found some things on multiclassing, some for and some against.

It doesn't make any sense to lookt at multiclassing as a whole, as different classes, archetypes, and build gain and lose different amounts when multiclassing. Gunsligner and Weretouched Shifter for instance get almost nothing from their class after 5th or 4th level, respectively, so for them, multiclassing is highly advised, likely into a casting/alchemical class to get more versatility. There are specific builds where a specific dip helps the build a lot and is thus justified, e.g. A Cave Druid dipping into Monk to flurry with the big natural attack, or a blaster Wizard dipping into Crossblooded Sorcerer for a +2 to each damage dice. For the vast majority of builds, a single class is best, though, even more so for full casters. The above builds are the exception, not the norm.

Lalochezic wrote:
I ask because I'm in the midst creating a backup character who's arcanist 2/rogue (unchained) 1 for flavor/story

You don't need specific classes for backstory. A backstory about a sneaky thief or something other rogue-ish does not require levels in Rogue. If you want a specific mechanic(al benefit) to suit your backstory, that's fine, but be advised that in Pathfinder, there's almost always multiple ways to archieve something. Most things can be done by multiple classes, archetypes, or other options like traits, feats, or racial options.

Most importantly, you should never get hung up on class names. You're playing a role, not a name, after all. To quote myself from another thread for examples, Rogue is not the best class to play a rogue style character, Ninja is not the best class to play a ninja style character, and Assassin is not the best class to play an assassin style character.

Lalochezic wrote:
but also mechanistically so my squishy caster has better ability hide/stealth/escape when need be.

Your multiclassding doesn't really do this, though. All Rogue would give you are a few class skills, and those can come form other sources. There are traits granting class skills: Slippery, Crocodile Swim (Werecrocodile-Kin Skinwalker), Trickster (Vanara), Bandit, Highlander, Swamp Rebel, Uskwood Hunter, Wisdom in the Flesh, and Familiy Trade for Stealth, and Unshackled, Freedom Fighter (Halfling), Persecuted Expatriate (Tiefling), Bandit, Narrow Escape, Vagabond Child, Wisdom in the Flesh, and Familiy Trade for Escape Artist (not that the skill sees much use). Look them up on Archives of Nethys.

There are also racial traits (that's a completely different thing, these are the benefits your race grants you) that grant class skills, most notably Fey Thoughts which can be selected by every core race.

In any case, class skills are only a +3 bonus, nothing more. An arcanist can have the same numer of ranks in Stealth as a Rogue, all the latter has is this +3 bonus (presuming the same dexterity).

Don't forget spells, either - Vanish and (at 4th level) Invisibility grant a higher bonus to stealth than a dozen levels in Rogue. Grease, Liberating Command, and Bouncy Body are first level spells that help yopu escape grapples et al., while Monkey Fish, Touch of the Sea, and later Levitate and Fly grant other movement options that could help you escape peril.


Multiclassing sometimes can be tedious, but you can also make some fun and powerful build. It's always depends what you have in mind.

Arcanist/rogue can be a good mix with arcane trickster. But also the archetype eldritch scoundrel is pretty cool. The first one is for a sneaky mage blaster, the second for a Rouge that have learned magic. It is your choice. Also an arcanist (VMC rouge with accomplishment sneak attack)/ arcane trickster can be fun.

It's true that Multiclassing isn't always the best thing to do, but that doesn't mean that you can't create something of amazing with the right feats and powers. For example I created an Eldritch Knight with the Blade Adept Arcanist that took Spell Combat from Phantom Blade Spiritualist and VMC Magus for Spellstrike (and Broad Study arcana to combine spells with Spellstrike and Spell Combat). At the beginning I wasn't so powerful and I risked to die two times. But in middle-high levels I became a beast against the enemies and I survived at odds situations.

All this to tell you that if you have a character in mind try to make him, even if it's difficult or others think that it isn't the best or the most powerful option.

The best think is to have fun with the character that you want to create.


Ronelim Walker wrote:
Multiclassing sometimes can be tedious, but you can also make some fun and powerful build. It's always depends what you have in mind.

I'd say that if your build depends on the achievement of high level class abilities, you should pretty much never multiclass, but if your build depends upon the accumulation of bonuses, then you might do very well by multiclassing.

I'm oversimplifying of course. You hit the nail on the head, though. It depends on what you want. Also, just like Secret Wizard said, you need a good reason to justify it. Don't just take a little of this and that willynilly.


I agree with everything Derklord said up above. IMO the question is why do you want the level in rogue?

Its possible to get most of what rogue offers without multi-classing into it. If its for background reasons, traits are designed to do this. They give you bonus to something that represents your character's upbringing.

Did your character grow up doing underhanded things? You could take the trait Criminal. Was your character part of a secret cult? Then grab Mystery Initiate. You get all the flavor without being forced to take levels in rogue, cleric or some other class in order to justify your character's background.

I would suggest writing up your character's background to be whatever you want it to be and then looking for traits that emphasize the parts you like the best. In general a character gets 2 traits (but they can't be the same type, so you couldn't have 2 social traits for example) and you can take a drawback in exchange for a 3rd trait. You will want to discuss this with your DM ahead of time though. Since they may have additional requirements and/or limitations for their game when it comes to traits.

As for classes themselves. Think about what kind of character you want to play. Do, you want to primarily stand back and cast spells? Do you want to mix it up in melee and not cast any spells? or Do you want something in between? Once you know the answer to that you should be able to find a class and/or archetype that gives the mix you want without needing to multiclass. Depending on what you're trying to achieve archetypes can be used to swap out class abilities you don't actually care about (or that don't fit your concept) for something that's more compelling.

As Derklord said, unfortunately some classes are so front loaded that there's little motivation to keep taking levels in it after a certain point. So, it's good to know ahead of time if that's the case with a class you're thinking about taking. But the nice thing is you don't have to make those kinds of decisions upfront. If you're taking levels in a class and it's working for you and you're having fun with then just keep taking levels in that class until you feel you need to make a change.


Lalochezic wrote:
I ask because I'm in the midst creating a backup character who's arcanist 2/rogue (unchained) 1 for flavor/story but also mechanistically so my squishy caster has better ability hide/stealth/escape when need be.

What you're describing is something handled by investing into the stealth skill, which does not require multiclassing. Take a trait that grants stealth as a class skill and invest maximum ranks in it, and you will be very good at hiding.

When multiclassing, you are looking for specific characteristics from each class that will synergize with your overall build. One level of Unchained Rogue gives you 1d6 sneak attack, weapon finesse, and trapfinding. While it is true that rogues do give you extra skill points and class skills, those can be more easily gotten elsewhere and should not factor heavily into your decision to multiclass. There are arcanist builds that can make use of sneak attacking, and those can make a case for a 1-level rogue dip, but if you just want to be a bit more stealthy this offers no real synergy for you and should be avoided.


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With regards to arcanist multiclassing, waiting till level 4 for your 2nd level spells is already a little rough, especially paired with the arcanist’s fewer spells per day. And extending that wait only makes things worse.

Arcanist can be a pretty good dip though, if you don’t want to be a main caster. Dimensional slide can be amazing for a martial class


Lalochezic wrote:
I already see some downsides to this, namely that I won't have access to higher level spells as quickly (4th level to get 2nd level spells??). Mechanically, this would seem like a good enough reason to stick with a pure arcanist and just get a good archetype (School Savant or Occultist), but the lure of a good story feels too good to ignore.

The first thing I want to say is: if the story is too good to ignore, then that's actually a pretty good reason to do it. Check with your GM that it fits the optimisation level for their game.

People will generally advise you not to multiclass a full caster at all, or not without a plan, and there's a good reason for that: the cost of multiclassing actually rises the higher level you are. Like, at level 2 a multiclass rogue 1 arcanist 1 is probably better than an arcanist 2 - it's only one spell per day and one cantrip prepared worse off in terms of arcane power, and has more skills and stuff. But when you hit level 10, an arcanist 9/rogue 1 has 4th level spells, while an arcanist 10 has 5th. Essentially, you're not trading the other class benefits for the stuff you get at level 1 arcanist - you're trading them for whatever you get at the highest level of arcanist you'd get to without them, and that stuff is "more and better spells", which means the price is constantly going up the more levels you have.
Meanwhile, the benefits are frequently lowering as you rise in levels. Is it worth having a bit more stealth if it means you have fewer spell slots to cast invisibility? I really like skills and playing skilled characters, but there's a pretty compelling argument for solving things with magic. And a stealth score that's relevant at level 1 will become uselessly small at some point.

Lalochezic wrote:
2. How would you "successfully" multiclass an arcanist with an unchained rogue (e.g. how many levels in unchained rogue, what unchained rogue talents to pick up, what skills to focus on, etc.)?

So the first thing I'd do is ask my GM if advancing an arcanist through a prestige class would advance my spell preparations per day. This is important, because RAW it doesn't, but if it doesn't then arcanist and prestige classes is a total fail.

The second thing I'd do would be to plan out an Arcane Trickster build.
Probably with one level of rogue followed by four of arcanist, then arcane trickster, using the "accomplished sneak attacker" feat to qualify for the prestige class. I might instead swap the rogue for Brawler (snakebite striker archetype). I'd consider taking the School Savant archetype with the Admixture subschool of Evocation, and consider a 5th level of arcanist to get an actual Exploit so I could take the Extra Exploit feat.
(I'd also ask myself if I didn't instead want to use Exploiter Wizard for this.)
Why? Because I don't see the point in being a bit sneaky at level 1 if you're just going to drop it later. Hence the Arcane Trickster.

Lalochezic wrote:
"4. Did you build the character's story first and the build second with any success?"

Yes, and no.

I have had a story, and built to the story, and it has been a success. It's why my first organised play character is such an interesting multiclass. But, it was a lot of work, and I did end up tweaking the story a little. And I thought about it a lot and did a lot of maths and stuff before coming to the conclusion it was probably functional and trying it. And even now, it's working, but I have to acknowledge it might stop working at some point.


Personally I feel that arcanist is a great full caster to multiclass. It has the most versatility of the three classes that use the wizard list, but the fewest slots. So as a multiclass you get the most benefit from having something other to do than casting, and you have the most likelhood of having the right spells available to supliment your non spellcasting abilities.

But it's important to realize you are not a full caster and not try to play as one, otherwise you will be disappointed. A multiclass character is about having options. Rarely will you be better at anything than anyone else, but you will usually have something you can do.

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