Silly Question: Does Magic Missile need line of effect?


Rules Discussion


So here's a silly question: Does magic missile need line of effect?

I've always understood that magic missile just hits no matter what.

Quote:
Magic Missile (evo)H: Pelt creatures with unerring bolts of magical force.
Quote:
You send a dart of force streaking toward a creature that you can see. It automatically hits

I'm guessing the answer is yes all spells need line of effect. But has that always been the case with D&D? Or was that an introduction to 3e?


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Pg# 457 :Line of Effect
"When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect’s area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability."

Since magic missile doesn't mention an exception, I'd say it still requires it.

AD&D never spelled it out, but it explains individual spells hitting walls and such. 2E required seeing the target. 3E way when codified line of effects came in.


I think you've raised a good question, and it's a bit up to interpretation of whether "You send a dart of force streaking toward a creature that you can see" is rules text or not. That sentence clearly contradicts what constitutes line of effect, so it's my opinion that magic missile does not require line of effect.


May I further refine the question by the following example?

Can you cast and hit Magic Missile from outside a house on an enemy that is only visible through a closed glass window though any opening, e.g the chimney?

Rulestext LoS:
Quote:

Line of Sight

Some effects require you to have line of sight to your target. As long as you can precisely sense the area (as described in Perception on page 464) and it is not blocked by a solid barrier (as described in Cover on pages 476–477), you have line of sight. An area of darkness prevents line of sight if you don’t have darkvision, but portcullises and other obstacles that aren’t totally solid do not. If you’re unsure whether a barrier is solid enough to block line of sight, usually a 1-foot-square gap is enough to maintain line of sight, though the GM makes the final call.

1. Does a glass window (or similar transparent material) block line of sight as it is totally solid?

Rulestext LoE:
Quote:

Line of Effect

When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect’s area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability. This is called a line of effect. You have line of effect unless a creature is entirely behind a solid physical barrier. Visibility doesn’t matter for line of effect, nor do portcullises and other barriers that aren’t totally solid. If you’re unsure whether a barrier is solid enough, usually a 1-foot-square gap is enough to maintain a line of effect, though the GM makes the final call. In an area effect, creatures or targets must have line of effect to the point of origin to be affected. If there’s no line of effect between the origin of the area and the target, the effect doesn’t apply to that target. For example, if there’s a solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature that’s within the burst radius, the wall blocks the effect—that creature is unaffected by the fireball and doesn’t need to attempt a save against it. Likewise, any ongoing effects created by an ability with an area cease to affect anyone who moves outside of the line of effect.

2. If transparent material does not block LoS is LoE still a "line" (as in shortest direct connection of two points) or can you draw LoE around corners if there is any opening ("unblocked path to the target")?


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I think the intent for LoE is made clear in the Fireball example. They are referencing a wall between the FIREBALL and ist origin, aka the caster, while still being in the radius.
If line of effect could go around corners, this would establish line of effect, but it doesn't in the example.

NB: As I am not a native Speaker, I only assume the origin of the FIREBALL references to the caster, not the point of detonation.


DerNils wrote:

I think the intent for LoE is made clear in the Fireball example. They are referencing a wall between the FIREBALL and ist origin, aka the caster, while still being in the radius.

If line of effect could go around corners, this would establish line of effect, but it doesn't in the example.

NB: As I am not a native Speaker, I only assume the origin of the FIREBALL references to the caster, not the point of detonation.

As a fireball is aimed at an intersection the caster needs to have LoS and LoE to the intersection, and then the area effect (detonation) will draw LoE from that intersection.

The question is if LoE needs to be one mathematical line from origin to target (which the name indicates and I strongly assume is true) or if LoE is only meant as unbroken path to the target, e.g. you take a pen and as long as you can draw a series of interconnecting lines within the area of effect you will eventually reach the target.

So if you detonate a fireball in a corridor and the enemy is in an adjacent room with the door closed you can not draw LoE either way because the effect will be blocked along its whole area of effect by a solid physical barrier. If however you detonate a fireball shortly before a corner, will an enemy around the corner be effected? LoE as a straight line will probably cut the corner, so the answer is no. LoE as an "unblocked path to the target" will probably be able to reach the target so the answer would be yes.


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Ubertron_X wrote:
So if you detonate a fireball in a corridor and the enemy is in an adjacent room with the door closed you can not draw LoE either way because the effect will be blocked along its whole area of effect by a solid physical barrier. If however you detonate a fireball shortly before a corner, will an enemy around the corner be effected?

They will not.

CRB page 457, Line of Effect wrote:
In an area effect, creatures or targets must have line of effect to the point of origin to be affected. If there’s no line of effect between the origin of the area and the target, the effect doesn’t apply to that target. For example, if there’s a solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature that’s within the burst radius, the wall blocks the effect—that creature is unaffected by the fireball and doesn’t need to attempt a save against it. Likewise, any ongoing effects created by an ability with an area cease to affect anyone who moves outside of the line of effect.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Ubertron_X wrote:
So if you detonate a fireball in a corridor and the enemy is in an adjacent room with the door closed you can not draw LoE either way because the effect will be blocked along its whole area of effect by a solid physical barrier. If however you detonate a fireball shortly before a corner, will an enemy around the corner be effected?

They will not.

CRB page 457, Line of Effect wrote:
In an area effect, creatures or targets must have line of effect to the point of origin to be affected. If there’s no line of effect between the origin of the area and the target, the effect doesn’t apply to that target. For example, if there’s a solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature that’s within the burst radius, the wall blocks the effect—that creature is unaffected by the fireball and doesn’t need to attempt a save against it. Likewise, any ongoing effects created by an ability with an area cease to affect anyone who moves outside of the line of effect.

Thank you good Sir but please be assured I have already read the quoted example. However my question still is:

Is this considered a "solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature"? (in this scenario the area of effect can never reach the creature)

...W
...W
...W
C.W.F
...W
...W
...W

Or is this already considered a "solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature"? (in this scenario the area of effect could possibly reach the creature, because based on on range we can draw at least 2 unblocked paths to the target hex).

C.W.F

Same thing about e.g. Stinking Cloud (also a burst, but with a duration):

WWWWWWWWWWW
............sSSSs
..........ssSSSss
WWWWSSSWWWW
...........WSXSW
...........WSSSW
...........WSSSW

Originating from X will it effect only "direct line hexes" S or will it also effect hexes s?


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In CWF, there is a solid wall between the creature and the fireball's point of origin. Therefore, according to the quoted text, the creature is unaffected by it. Anything you may note about "paths" from the one to the other is beside the point, unless you can quote some text that talks about that.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
In CWF, there is a solid wall between the creature and the fireball's point of origin. Therefore, according to the quoted text, the creature is unaffected by it. Anything you may note about "paths" from the one to the other is beside the point, unless you can quote some text that talks about that.

Well, its right at the beginning of the line of effect text?

Quote:
When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect’s area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability. This is called a line of effect.

Don't get me wrong. I am 99.99% sure you are right, but it does not say anywhere in the rules that this path needs to be straight, apart from naming that path "line of effect". And while "line" strongly indicates straightness however I can think of a lot of polygonal paths that are not exactly straight.


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Ubertron_X wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
In CWF, there is a solid wall between the creature and the fireball's point of origin. Therefore, according to the quoted text, the creature is unaffected by it. Anything you may note about "paths" from the one to the other is beside the point, unless you can quote some text that talks about that.

Well, its right at the beginning of the line of effect text?

Quote:
When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect’s area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability. This is called a line of effect.
Don't get me wrong. I am 99.99% sure you are right, but it does not say anywhere in the rules that this path needs to be straight, apart from naming that path "line of effect". And while "line" strongly indicates straightness however I can think of a lot of polygonal paths that are not exactly straight.

But I'm not saying "C is unaffected by F because there is no line of effect." I'm saying "C is unaffected by F because that is given to us as an explicit example." If W is a solid wall, and W is between C and F, then the conditions of the example are met, and therefore C is unaffected by F.

You can now leverage that fact to cut down on the possibilities of what "line of effect" means. That's what an example is for. It's not there to get you to question what "solid wall" means.

EDIT: However, I will certainly stipulate that they should have written "you usually need an unblocked line to..." for clarity.


Ubertron_X wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I am 99.99% sure you are right

Can't we just go with that then? I think most of the threads that go off the rails on this forum do so because people want absurdly definitive answers to everything.


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Thanks everyone for the replies :) Also grays tone for the history lesson.

One interesting thing is line of effect doesn’t need sight. So magic missile is “worse” because it needs BOTH line of effect AND line of sight. Practically speaking I’ll probably just go with my usual rule (if you can see so much as a toe and there is a reasonable path then magic missile works), but it was interesting to consider whether or not that’s “by the rules”.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:


One interesting thing is line of effect doesn’t need sight. So magic missile is “worse” because it needs BOTH line of effect AND line of sight.

The general rules for spell targeting say you need to be able to see the target, so not really.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Ubertron_X wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I am 99.99% sure you are right
Can't we just go with that then? I think most of the threads that go off the rails on this forum do so because people want absurdly definitive answers to everything.

That nagging shadow of doubt is what many are looking for... ;)

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