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While looking over the Skill feats granted by backgrounds, I noticed that some skills only ever seem to get a specific bonus skill feat, which is a little limiting.
Those Skills and Feats are Religion (Student of the Canon), Medicine (Battle Medicine) and Thievery (Pickpocket).
Thievery has another option (Subtle Theft) and I'm sure will appear in a background at some point and Assurance is always an option, but it feels like these particular skills need a second distinct feat to enable some more variance in builds.
I have no idea what Religion would make available to compare to Arcana's Arcane Sense, Occultism's Identify Oddity or Nature's Natural Medicine. Possibly an Undead Sense? A vague sense when undead are nearby?
However for Medicine there is currently no boost to long-term care and that would seem to be a low enough effect to be a 1st level feat. Alternatively, a first aid feat that provides a reduction in the Dying flat check DC might be useful.
Just thinking that there needs to be two feats for every skill at first level to prevent any medical or religious focused character being pigeonholed.
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While looking over the Skill feats granted by backgrounds, I noticed that some skills only ever seem to get a specific bonus skill feat, which is a little limiting.
Those Skills and Feats are Religion (Student of the Canon), Medicine (Battle Medicine) and Thievery (Pickpocket).
Thievery has another option (Subtle Theft) and I'm sure will appear in a background at some point and Assurance is always an option, but it feels like these particular skills need a second distinct feat to enable some more variance in builds.
I have no idea what Religion would make available to compare to Arcana's Arcane Sense, Occultism's Identify Oddity or Nature's Natural Medicine. Possibly an Undead Sense? A vague sense when undead are nearby?
However for Medicine there is currently no boost to long-term care and that would seem to be a low enough effect to be a 1st level feat. Alternatively, a first aid feat that provides a reduction in the Dying flat check DC might be useful.
Just thinking that there needs to be two feats for every skill at first level to prevent any medical or religious focused character being pigeonholed.
The title feels a bit misguiding to me, like there's not enough options for skill usage at level 1, while the issue here is more of "Some skills have less skill feats at level 1". It feels like those are very different things. As for Medicine skills, Battle Medic is pretty strong for a level 1, it fundementally changes how you can use a skill, opening up a combat use that is normally not a thing, and the immunity only applies to the Battle medicine usage, not normal treat wounds, plus there's a new feat in the World Guide that lowers that immunity duration as well. Medicine later also receives both Continual Recovery and Ward Medic really early on, it also grants Robust Recovery if I recall, which makes successes to cure poison/disease on you critical successes. I think Medicine has enough, not sure it needs more.
Can't comment on Religion skill though.
I'm in the other boat, where I think most skills lack higher level options. But I'm sure all this will get expanded with more books.
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This doesn't really feel like a valid complaint when players start with multiple skills so it's not as if you will be punished for taking religion.
The players have options in taking feats for other skills. There is no real need for the feat to come from a specific skill.
The only class that's likely to have issue with the choice of skill feats at the moment is rogue.
My only issue as a rogue is that there's too many choices and not all fit my character concept >:(
My only issue as a rogue is that there's too many choices and not all fit my character concept >:(This doesn't really feel like a valid complaint when players start with multiple skills so it's not as if you will be punished for taking religion.
The players have options in taking feats for other skills. There is no real need for the feat to come from a specific skill.
The only class that's likely to have issue with the choice of skill feats at the moment is rogue.
What is your character concept?
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This doesn't really feel like a valid complaint when players start with multiple skills so it's not as if you will be punished for taking religion.
The players have options in taking feats for other skills. There is no real need for the feat to come from a specific skill.
The only class that's likely to have issue with the choice of skill feats at the moment is rogue.
This does not help the fact that every background that gives Religion or Medicine is “forced” to give the same feat, making the ones that give those skills more homogeneous than those that give other skills.
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At least one of my players keeps complaining that all the Skill Feats absolutely suck until you get Expert level in a skill. :/
I would absolutely love to see a wider pool of skill feats. Especially a big pile of weird, niche stuff that will be dismissed as traps in optimization guides at the lower proficiency levels.
But I'm sure we'll get there in a bit. I have definitely noticed how small the general and skill feat pools are, but I don't think it's too bad for the point we're at, before books full of character options start piling on.
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Yeah I did start skipping a lot of LOWG Backgrounds because it became hard to even tell them apart, always giving the same <10 skill feats for the majority of them.
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At least one of my players keeps complaining that all the Skill Feats absolutely suck until you get Expert level in a skill. :/
Are they wrong?
Because I'm pretty sure they're not wrong.One of my playtest characters took the skill feats:
I Stopped
Being
Able To
Care
My choices were irrelevant.
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At least one of my players keeps complaining that all the Skill Feats absolutely suck until you get Expert level in a skill. :/Are they wrong?
Because I'm pretty sure they're not wrong.One of my playtest characters took the skill feats:
I Stopped
Being
Able To
CareMy choices were irrelevant.
How are they irrelevant? Just a quick glance shows Cat Fall alone being useful
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While looking over the Skill feats granted by backgrounds, I noticed that some skills only ever seem to get a specific bonus skill feat, which is a little limiting.
Those Skills and Feats are Religion (Student of the Canon), Medicine (Battle Medicine) and Thievery (Pickpocket).
Thievery has another option (Subtle Theft) and I'm sure will appear in a background at some point and Assurance is always an option, but it feels like these particular skills need a second distinct feat to enable some more variance in builds.
...
I don't see this as a problem for selecting a character's skill feats at 1st level, since the character has several skills. If the character wants to devote his or her skill feats to one skill line, we also have the General Skill Feats in Table 5-2 on page 255. For example, that includes the Assurance skill feat that can apply to any skill.
The shortage of 1st-level skill feats for some skills is a bigger problem for backgrounds. For example, both Criminal and Prisoner gain the Stealth skill and both gained the Experienced Smuggler skill feat. The single alternative 1st-level Stealth skill feat is Terrain Stalker, which I guess was too specialized. Terrain Stalker is used by the Emancipated campaign background for Age of Ashes. The Artisan, Artist, Tinker, and Local Scion (Age of Ashes) backgrounds all crowd into the Specialty Crafting skill feat. Crafting has three alternatives--Alchemical Crafting, Quick Repair, and Snare Crafting--but no background wanted them.
I made a careful catalog of how the 1st-level skill feats are used in my lengthy post Campaign Traits to Campaign Backgrounds: Theorycrafting and Ironfang Invasion. Let me cut-and-paste it here.
Strength
* Athletics -> Combat Climber, Hefty Hauler (Laborer CON), Quick Jump (Martial Disciple(1 of 2) DEX), Titan Wrestler, Underwater Marauder (Sailor DEX)
Dexterity
* Acrobatics -> Cat Fall (Martial Disciple(2 of 2) STR), Quick Squeeze, Steady Balance (Acrobat STR)
* Stealth -> Experienced Smuggler (Criminal INT, Prisoner STR CON), Terrain Stalker (Emancipated‡ CHA)
* Thievery -> Pickpocket (Street Urchin CON, Returning Descendent‡ WIS), Subtle Theft
Constitution
Intelligence
* Arcana -> Arcane Sense
* Crafting -> Alchemical Crafting, Quick Repair, Snare Crafting, Specialty Crafting (Artisan STR, Artist DEX CHA, Tinker DEX, Local Scion‡ CON CHA)
* Lore -> Additional Lore, Experienced Professional
* Occultism -> Oddity Identification (Fortune Teller CHA)
* Society -> Courtly Graces (Noble CHA, Hellknight Historian‡ STR), Multilingual (Emissary CHA), Read Lips, Sign Language, Streetwise (Detective WIS)
Wisdom
* Medicine -> Battle Medicine (Field Medic CON)
* Nature -> Natural Medicine (Herbalist CON), Train Animal (Animal Whisperer CHA)
* Religion -> Student of the Canon (Acolyte INT, Haunting Vision‡ CON)
* Survival -> Experienced Tracker (Bounty Hunter STR), Forager (Scout DEX), Survey Wildlife (Hunter DEX), Terrain Expertise ((underground) Miner STR, Reputation Seeker‡ DEX INT)
Charisma
* Deception -> Charming Liar (Charlatan INT), Lengthy Diversion, Lie to Me (Gambler DEX, Truth Seeker‡ STR WIS)
* Diplomacy -> Bargain Hunter (Merchant INT), Group Impression (Barrister INT), Hobnobber (Barkeep CON, Out-of-Towner‡ CON INT)
* Intimidation -> Group Coercion, Intimidating Glare (Warrior STR CON, Dragon Scholar‡ STR), Quick Coercion (Guard STR)
* Performance -> Fascinating Performance (Entertainer DEX), Impressive Performance (Gladiator STR), Virtuosic Performer
* Multiskill -> Assurance (STR Athletics: Farmhand CON WIS, WIS Survival: Nomad CON WIS, INT Arcana or WIS Nature or INT Occultism or Wis Religion: Scholar INT WIS), Dubious Knowledge (WIS Nature or INT Occultism: Hermit CON INT), Quick Identification, Recognize Spell, Skill Training, Trick Magic Item
‡ from Age of Ashes campaign background
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Field Medic proved to be a popular background at GenCon; I think there were three of us at our table of 1-02. So at the very least I appreciate the diversity of Lores, and being able to take Undead Lore or Abyssal Lore in place of Warfare Lore, but still get Medicine/Field Medicine.
What is your character concept?My only issue as a rogue is that there's too many choices and not all fit my character concept >:(This doesn't really feel like a valid complaint when players start with multiple skills so it's not as if you will be punished for taking religion.
The players have options in taking feats for other skills. There is no real need for the feat to come from a specific skill.
The only class that's likely to have issue with the choice of skill feats at the moment is rogue.
Not sure how to phrase it properly. Mostly going off a concept mental image on what feels right but I'm getting the hang of it I think. Rogue is amazing in a way since you get so many snazzy feats anyway, the work becomes almost what to pick when in a way.
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How are they irrelevant? Just a quick glance shows Cat Fall alone being useful
Because that chapter didn't feature a balcony to fall off of, a wall to climb, a chasm to leap over, or really anything that could have benefited from the vast majority of skill feats.
What I meant by "my choice (to not take skill feats) was irrelevant" was that there occurred no situation where I said, "gosh, if only I'd taken Skill Feat X..."
It was irrelevant in the purest sense of the word. Even if I'd had (say) Cat Fall in order to have made use of it I would have had to actively gone out of my way to have it get used.
Is Cat Fall a useful skill feat in general?
Yes
Could I have used it if I'd had it?
No
Therefor not-having-it was as useful as having-it.
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WutIf you never use something, it's just as useful as not having it.
That has to be one of the most short-sighted comments I have heard this month. Yeesh. I know it ia the internet, but come on.
Short-sighted...or insightful? XD