I've noticed the trend that Alchemist may feel a bit lackluster at the moment and was curious if it's a good dip for the cost of a level 9 ancestry, if not for free poisons from the daily batches. I didn't plan on investing further into it, but at level 9, no other ancestry feat catches my attention, and it feels like a decent synergy with rogue, granting me some alchemical items and some skills for the cost of one ancestry feat?
Yeah I think it seems pretty solid. Our ranger really wanted to do it but unfortunately they added the half elves are the only one who ignore ability scores thing after the playtest.
For the most part... No.
As an example, the poisons you mention, a level 9 monster probably makes the save on the level 1 poisons on a 2.
There are some good, low level, utility consumables you can make, but you'd want to be able to craft like level 6 items for most of them.
Level 1 utility stuff will be limited for the most to temporary +1 item bonuses to specific skills, that at that level you can easily buy a permanent +1 without dipping into your pockets too much.
If it's just a single feat, I think both the elven one that lets you pick up skills every morning, or 2 cantrips via caster MC, will provide more utility.
So, it's a solid MC, but it needs imo at least the 2nd and probably the 3rd feat as well.
It doesn't have to be amazing, or viable for combat. Mostly just wanna use the Multitalented for something, as the alternative for level 9 ancestry feat is another general feat, and as Rogue I have so many skill feats that I'm drowning in them.
For the price of one ancestry feat tho, 18 free level 1 alchemical items aren't that bad right? Plus Alchemical Crafting feat and a skill.
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Alchemist is a very good multiclass because you can get quite a lot out of it for relatively small investment. That being said, it's only great if you add Expert and Master Alchemy
For a Dedication-only Multiclass, I'd Definitely pick something else. Ranger might be nice if you use ranged weapons occasionally because Hunt Prey can negate the first range increment penalty.
Other than that, Cleric or Druid is probably your best bet, giving you two cantrips per day with the option of switching them out on a daily basis.
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For the price of one ancestry feat tho, 18 free level 1 alchemical items aren't that bad right? Plus Alchemical Crafting feat and a skill.
A level 1 alchemical item costs 3 gp. And that's for the case you find a good enough one at level 9, which is highly improbable as most of them won't give their bonus due to you wearing a +2 armor/weapon/item.
If you want Alchemical Crafting, then just take it, it's the only nice part of Alchemist Dedication.Now, if you want to take the feats to get to higher alchemical items, it gets better. You can have many nice things, from Darkvision to Blur.
For the most part... No.
As an example, the poisons you mention, a level 9 monster probably makes the save on the level 1 poisons on a 2.
There are some good, low level, utility consumables you can make, but you'd want to be able to craft like level 6 items for most of them.
Level 1 utility stuff will be limited for the most to temporary +1 item bonuses to specific skills, that at that level you can easily buy a permanent +1 without dipping into your pockets too much.
If it's just a single feat, I think both the elven one that lets you pick up skills every morning, or 2 cantrips via caster MC, will provide more utility.
So, it's a solid MC, but it needs imo at least the 2nd and probably the 3rd feat as well.
It doesn't have to be amazing, or viable for combat. Mostly just wanna use the Multitalented for something, as the alternative for level 9 ancestry feat is another general feat, and as Rogue I have so many skill feats that I'm drowning in them.
For the price of one ancestry feat tho, 18 free level 1 alchemical items aren't that bad right? Plus Alchemical Crafting feat and a skill.
Depends, 18 times a day a +1 on a skill is still worse than permanent +1 to the same skill^^
And as a half elf, you also have access to all the level 9 ELVEN feats as well, not just mutlitalented.
Expert longevity as an example lets you pick up skills, at expert proficiency no less, each day. And Elf step may be a good combat option, build depending.
Plus, you could always pick 2 cantrips for an at will +1 to a skill via Guidance + something else.
Not sure I understood the first line. I mean that at level 9, advanced alchemy lets you create 18 batches of alchemical items for free without any skill involement.
I'm aware of the other elf feats, but at level 9, none of them are appealing to me. The Expert longevity requires you to be 100 years old and another ancestry feat, leaving 50 years of adventuring or so left. Aesthetically not appealing to me if my character can instead have 100 years or more to adventure, as half-elves can live easily up to 150.
While the cantrips can be interesting, they are at the same time a little dull. The reason I'm going with Multitalented is that it adds a little more variety and depth to the character. Being able to craft free potions and elixirs adds a little more roleplay angles, and even if I can't super heal with high level elixirs, I can always pass them out to the npc's who have less healing access.
Alchemist is a very good multiclass because you can get quite a lot out of it for relatively small investment. That being said, it's only great if you add Expert and Master Alchemy
For a Dedication-only Multiclass, I'd Definitely pick something else. Ranger might be nice if you use ranged weapons occasionally because Hunt Prey can negate the first range increment penalty.
Other than that, Cleric or Druid is probably your best bet, giving you two cantrips per day with the option of switching them out on a daily basis.
I had first considered druid and picking up Wild Shape. Still am. But the downside to both druid and cleric is the roleplay requirements and anathemas. I could potentially have a more ranger-y rogue who lives out in the woods, but I'm not fully sold on that angle. And Clerics kind of need to worship someone if i recall?
For the price of one ancestry feat tho, 18 free level 1 alchemical items aren't that bad right? Plus Alchemical Crafting feat and a skill.A level 1 alchemical item costs 3 gp. And that's for the case you find a good enough one at level 9, which is highly improbable as most of them won't give their bonus due to you wearing a +2 armor/weapon/item.
If you want Alchemical Crafting, then just take it, it's the only nice part of Alchemist Dedication.Now, if you want to take the feats to get to higher alchemical items, it gets better. You can have many nice things, from Darkvision to Blur.
So that's about 3x9=27GP per day worth, as well as a skill and general feat for cost of one Ancestry feat? The antidote and disease cures would supplement fortitude saves, and the leaping potion is basically free Quick Jump skill feat for ten rounds? Alternatives at that level for ancestry feats for half-elves aren't huge, least for my aesthetic, so I've been so far going for a general feat from human side. Or is it the case that the bonuses from potions vs poison/disease are negated by the new runes on armor? There's always the mobility and perception potions. I take it DC 17 on a free level 1 poison is too easily negated by enemies at level 9? Alchemists fire would be on par with an unbuffed throwing knife or shuriken with it's 1d8damage, 1 persistent, 1 splash?
monk dedication is nice flavor if your rouge likes to be lethal always...and if you find flurry useful you can pick it up at level 10 right after...your unarmed attack is just as good as any finesse+agile weapon
it is a bit ninja-like...so if that bothers you...
also, why don't you pick up 2 cantrips? mage hand and ghost sound are good for any rouge...bard dedication looks perfect....you can even pick up inspiring if you want later to buff your party and yourself...
If you've played to level 8, you should know by now how often those Alchemical items have been or could have useful.
Likely only vs. Weaknesses/anti-Regeneration, at least for the later levels.
And yes, I do believe the bonuses are the same as those from your armor, so nothing there either.
Saying your Alchemist's Fire is on par w/ a generic weapon means it's hardly worthwhile. And bombs are martial weapons, so there's no Weapon Specialization for you (even though you get Trained).
How much would Elixirs of Health help? 9d6 Healing/day, split into 9 doses. A Heal spell is 5d8+40 at that point. Those elixirs pale next to Treat Wounds.
9 free level 1 items is hardly better than 9 items that cost 1% of my budget unless you're making of point of using them all every day. Then it might be worth its Bulk, though not the feat slot.
If you plan on taking more Alchemist feats to get the levels up, then yes, it ramps up fast, but that's a bit more dramatic build choice. And bombs remain martial weapons you can't get your sneak attack with since their thrown and non-agile/non-finesse.
I find it funny that Alchemist intrigues you, but the Cantrips that do significantly more energy damage at will don't.
MCD Barbarian gets you +2 damage & 9+Con h.p./rage.
Half-Elves have the best Ancestry Feat selection in the game, so I'm surprised you can't find something. They might not seem exciting, but so many are useful, and will feel exciting if they save your life!
monk dedication is nice flavor if your rouge likes to be lethal always...and if you find flurry useful you can pick it up at level 10 right after...your unarmed attack is just as good as any finesse+agile weapon
it is a bit ninja-like...so if that bothers you...
I'm already dipping monk at level 2, picking up tiger stance at level 4 and building aesthetically and functionally around the claw attacks, with mobility and nature on the side. I had considered the bard, but I could never get into the performance side of bard as a player, short of Miming, none of the performances appeal to me. As for cantrips, I can already get arcane sense at will via a general feat, and since magic is obvious as heck without metamagic feats, the mage hand isn't as useful for me, ghost sound is nice but very situational.
@Castilliano: "For each batch of infused reagents you spend, choose an alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book, and make a batch of two of that item." It'd be 18 level 1 healing elixirs in this case. At 9th level a master medic could heal 2d8+30 hp with DC30 once every hour if we don't count continual recovery.
We're trying to go without a caster healer, so Heal isn't something I depend on. Handy to know about bombs being martial though, I didn't see that part and will keep it in mind.
As for the cantrip, I can get one that scales via ancestry feat. Do the ones via multiclass scale as well, I couldn't see that in dedication. But if my spell casting DC isn't increasing via class, how viable will a cantrip be at higher level? The reason Alchemist appeals to me but a cantrip doesn't, is because being able to craft even weak potions to hand out, if not players then npc's, is more aesthetically and roleplay appealing than a scaling damage cantrip. I've considered barbarian, the rage can be decent roleplay aspect, though not a fan of losing options for a while on account of +2 damage.
At level 9th, half-elves got:
Cooperative Soul(I haven't looked into Aid another too much, trying to make a more self sustained character)
Elf Step(Got monk and tiger stance, so my steps are already 10ft)
Expert Longevity(Nice, but pre-requirement is another ancestry feat and being 100 year old, with old age being at 150.)
Incredible Improviser(Is nice, if I wasn't rogue and had about all skills trained except 2-3 eventually)
Multitalented(Tadaaaah!)
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The antidote and disease cures would supplement fortitude saves
They don't stack with armor, so most certainly no.
the leaping potion is basically free Quick Jump skill feat for ten rounds
And it's 3gp, unless you play a kangaroo. You won't need a Quick Jump very often.
Alchemists fire would be on par with an unbuffed throwing knife or shuriken with it's 1d8damage, 1 persistent, 1 splash?
Considering the price of a weapon, and the fact that you can get it back after the fight, I would buy a bunch of them then.
We're trying to go without a caster healer, so Heal isn't something I depend on. Handy to know about bombs being martial though, I didn't see that part and will keep it in mind.
Well, if you really need healing between fights, then, why not. It's level x 2d6, enough to get a character back to full health. But you are in a very weird situation if you need this kind of healing desperately enough to take a Dedication Feat.
Well, if you really need healing between fights, then, why not. It's level x 2d6, enough to get a character back to full health. But you are in a very weird situation if you need this kind of healing desperately enough to take a Dedication Feat.
The alternatives at level 9th half-elf, which means human and elf feats are: (Pasted from other post)
Cooperative Soul(I haven't looked into Aid another too much, trying to make a more self sustained character)Elf Step(Got monk and tiger stance, so my steps are already 10ft)
Expert Longevity(Nice, but pre-requirement is another ancestry feat and being 100 year old, with old age being at 150.)
Incredible Improviser(Is nice, if I wasn't rogue and had about all skills trained except 2-3 eventually)
I'm heavily considering Druid, but that comes with an anathema and requires another feat for the wild shape which is only order spell that appeals. Barbarian Rage is nice for a cinematic tilt moment, but going blind with fury is a little niche.
From what I understand, your character is not actually level 9? So, there may be new available feats you would like to take when it will be the case?
As for the cantrip, I can get one that scales via ancestry feat. Do the ones via multiclass scale as well, I couldn't see that in dedication.
All cantrips heighten to max by default and you get training in spell rolls/DC's. "A cantrip is always automatically heightened to half your level, rounded up." page 300 spell section.
From what I understand, your character is not actually level 9? So, there may be new available feats you would like to take when it will be the case?
We've just started, so no higher than 3 at the moment. Just testing different built paths because the system is fun to build with, altering the build depending on how rp goes.
The rider effects of bombs, on the other hand, can be useful at any level. Flat-footed is just good, and persistent damage is excellent against weakness or regeneration.
A cantrip gives you a couple reliable go too guns, but I definitely think there's a niche for the alchemist's variation.
The rider effects of bombs, on the other hand, can be useful at any level. Flat-footed is just good, and persistent damage is excellent against weakness or regeneration.
A cantrip gives you a couple reliable go too guns, but I definitely think there's a niche for the alchemist's variation.
issue is:
is it worth it to spent 2 actions (draw+throw) AND increase your Map just for a flat-footed? (because frankly, the 1d6+1 is irrelevant at level 9)
With just 1 action and the same MAP increase, and quite higher success rate (+0 item bonus on bombs, worse proficiency with martial weapons than Athletics), you can instead "grab" an enemy, it's the same "flat-footed" condition, plus you keep him in place
they also both require the same "1 hand free"
What is the rider effect?
I'll likely be focusing around tiger claw ahead, so my hands are always free. Could sneak around with a bomb in each hand, go into tiger stance and headbutt everyone. As for ranged options at level 9 when this kicks in, unless I enchant a bow or hand crossbow, my best option seems to be shurikens or a sling, so at that point it's more for just some ranged option vs flying than optimal ranged damage?
is it worth it to spent 2 actions (draw+throw) AND increase your Map just for a flat-footed? (because frankly, the 1d6+1 is irrelevant at level 9)
Or 2 people for 4d4+stat with electric arc, or a normal attack with a crossbow and cast a shield [+1 AC, 10 hardness], or possible immobilize for a min with tanglefoot or enfeebled with a chill touch.
While the bombs affect on just a hit and the best cantrip effects are crits you can use the cantrip all day and you can target weak saves while AC is AC. You also have to factor in their being martial weapons on how well the chances to hit are.
As for ranged options at level 9 when this kicks in, unless I enchant a bow or hand crossbow, my best option seems to be shurikens or a sling, so at that point it's more for just some ranged option vs flying than optimal ranged damage?
Cantrips IMO. The damage scales and you can take different saves/types. For instance, Ray of Frost for the 120' range and Electric are for 2 target attack.
then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..
but I would still take 2 cantrips...
then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..
but I would still take 2 cantrips...
Isn't Hunt Prey kind of lackluster without ranger class feats that build on it? A whole action per target to not take penalties on second range increment seems a little lackluster for a dip?
The rider effects of bombs, on the other hand, can be useful at any level. Flat-footed is just good, and persistent damage is excellent against weakness or regeneration.
A cantrip gives you a couple reliable go too guns, but I definitely think there's a niche for the alchemist's variation.
issue is:
is it worth it to spent 2 actions (draw+throw) AND increase your Map just for a flat-footed? (because frankly, the 1d6+1 is irrelevant at level 9)
With just 1 action and the same MAP increase, and quite higher success rate (+0 item bonus on bombs, worse proficiency with martial weapons than Athletics), you can instead "grab" an enemy, it's the same "flat-footed" condition, plus you keep him in place
they also both require the same "1 hand free"
If you're a rogue as our OP is, or a ranger, there's a good chance you have quickdraw anyway, so tossing the bomb is one action. If you don't it is less appealing to be sure. But Quick Draw is really good at like... 7 out of 7 of the rogues or rangers built at my table had it I think. So I'd say it is a popular choice at minimum.
Isn't Hunt Prey kind of lackluster without ranger class feats that build on it? A whole action per target to not take penalties on second range increment seems a little lackluster for a dip?then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..
but I would still take 2 cantrips...
Depends on your playstyle. If you're mostly using a shortbow in a dungeon as a mid-range skirmisher switch hitter type, it isn't great. And that's a viable thing for a rogue. But if you're stuck with a shortbow outside of the dungeon 60 feet goes pretty quick.
If you're dual wiedling throwable weapons or using bombs, that boost is huge. And that's a pretty viable rogue build too.
Plus, ranger feats are really good on the rogue.
Isn't Hunt Prey kind of lackluster without ranger class feats that build on it? A whole action per target to not take penalties on second range increment seems a little lackluster for a dip?then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..
but I would still take 2 cantrips...
Depends on your playstyle. If you're mostly using a shortbow in a dungeon as a mid-range skirmisher switch hitter type, it isn't great. And that's a viable thing for a rogue. But if you're stuck with a shortbow outside of the dungeon 60 feet goes pretty quick.
If you're dual wiedling throwable weapons or using bombs, that boost is huge. And that's a pretty viable rogue build too.
Plus, ranger feats are really good on the rogue.
I'm going with Tiger Stance and punching people and retreating as required. I know the rogue isn't a direct frontliner, but he's turning out a bit more feral than I originally intended. Least combat style-wise.
just keep in mind that you're not getting Dex to damage with those unarmed attacks.I'm going with Tiger Stance and punching people and retreating as required. I know the rogue isn't a direct frontliner, but he's turning out a bit more feral than I originally intended. Least combat style-wise.Isn't Hunt Prey kind of lackluster without ranger class feats that build on it? A whole action per target to not take penalties on second range increment seems a little lackluster for a dip?then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..
but I would still take 2 cantrips...
Depends on your playstyle. If you're mostly using a shortbow in a dungeon as a mid-range skirmisher switch hitter type, it isn't great. And that's a viable thing for a rogue. But if you're stuck with a shortbow outside of the dungeon 60 feet goes pretty quick.
If you're dual wiedling throwable weapons or using bombs, that boost is huge. And that's a pretty viable rogue build too.
Plus, ranger feats are really good on the rogue.
Think the pathbuilder 2 app added those. Or is it because unarmed attacks aren't actually a weapon, so they don't count as "When you attack with a finesse melee weapon" for Thief's racket?
That'd probably mean that Ruffian doesn't get crit specialization from his racket either since it specifies a simple weapon. "When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the fiat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding (page 283)."
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Think the pathbuilder 2 app added those. Or is it because unarmed attacks aren't actually a weapon, so they don't count as "When you attack with a finesse melee weapon" for Thief's racket?
That'd probably mean that Ruffian doesn't get crit specialization from his racket either since it specifies a simple weapon. "When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the fiat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding (page 283)."
The racket says "When you attack with a finesse melee weapon" and unarmed attacks says "However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so."
So you're out of luck with both the racket and critical specialization effect.
Think the pathbuilder 2 app added those. Or is it because unarmed attacks aren't actually a weapon, so they don't count as "When you attack with a finesse melee weapon" for Thief's racket?
That'd probably mean that Ruffian doesn't get crit specialization from his racket either since it specifies a simple weapon. "When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the fiat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding (page 283)."
The racket says "When you attack with a finesse melee weapon" and unarmed attacks says "However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so."
So you're out of luck with both the racket and critical specialization effect.
I just noticed the fact that sneak attack specifies unarmed attacks on it's own yeah. This makes the Tiger Claw not that much better than going Str with a Spiked Gauntlet since the damage will even out despite it's lower die. I've looked into the cantrip suggestion, and with Arcane Sense and Otherwordly Magic, I could get detect magic and another cantrip at will. Though I've glanced at the MCD ones and they specifically spell out getting Trained in Spell Attack. Wouldn't that mean that the cantrips gained via multiclass archetypes are stuck at Trained proficiency on to hit, making the Frost Ray example unlikely to hit at higher levels? Does that mean that the combat cantrips via otherworldly magic or rogue's class feat don't actually start with proficiency in spell attack?
it looks like "back to the drawing board"...
what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?
it looks like "back to the drawing board"...
what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?
Original concept was a spiked fists ruffian type, somewhat aesthetically inspired by the Sacrier class from the Wakfu MMO. I saw tiger claw as a way to get the same sort of moveset as spiked gauntlets aesthetically but a little more effective, plus it'd be snazzy with Flurry.
Might instead go Ruffian with spiked gauntlets and a fancy breastplate to match the gauntlets. I'm looking into those cantrips people recommended, I can grab any arcane via an ancestry feat, detect magic via arcane sense and possibly another via a class dip or the rogue class feat, but I'm considering taking a fighter dip for Double Slice, which would allow two strikes with no penalties.
it looks like "back to the drawing board"...
what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?
Original concept was a spiked fists ruffian type, somewhat aesthetically inspired by the Sacrier class from the Wakfu MMO. I saw tiger claw as a way to get the same sort of moveset as spiked gauntlets aesthetically but a little more effective, plus it'd be snazzy with Flurry.
Might instead go Ruffian with spiked gauntlets and a fancy breastplate to match the gauntlets. I'm looking into those cantrips people recommended, I can grab any arcane via an ancestry feat, detect magic via arcane sense and possibly another via a class dip or the rogue class feat, but I'm considering taking a fighter dip for Double Slice, which would allow two strikes with no penalties.
double slice doesn't work so good with sneak attack(works like a single attack) so wasting 2 feats only on that...dunno...not worth it
ruffian works well with unarmed....str + sneak....both work, but they're not claws...but are d6 if you dip into monk again..also ki strike for that burst when needed...or ki rush...
another option is to go ranger and take twin takedown at 4th level...for that sweet action economy...
it looks like "back to the drawing board"...
what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?
Original concept was a spiked fists ruffian type, somewhat aesthetically inspired by the Sacrier class from the Wakfu MMO. I saw tiger claw as a way to get the same sort of moveset as spiked gauntlets aesthetically but a little more effective, plus it'd be snazzy with Flurry.
Might instead go Ruffian with spiked gauntlets and a fancy breastplate to match the gauntlets. I'm looking into those cantrips people recommended, I can grab any arcane via an ancestry feat, detect magic via arcane sense and possibly another via a class dip or the rogue class feat, but I'm considering taking a fighter dip for Double Slice, which would allow two strikes with no penalties.
double slice doesn't work so good with sneak attack(works like a single attack) so wasting 2 feats only on that...dunno...not worth it
ruffian works well with unarmed....str + sneak....both work, but they're not claws...but are d6 if you dip into monk again..also ki strike for that burst when needed...or ki rush...
another option is to go ranger and take twin takedown at 4th level...for that sweet action economy...
Endame rogue does, but it's a bit of a long term plan. There's a class feat that turns your sneak attacks into normal damage instead of precision damage, and another that allows you to apply sneak attack regardless of enemy being flat-footed or noth. In theory a fighter dipped str rogue could hit twice with no penalties and apply both sneak attacks via Double Slice. Very late in the game. Early on I'm thinking Twin-feint is better which I start with. I considered the ranger move but that requires an action to setup hunting. I'm kind of fine doing less sneak attack damage but attacking with no penalties.
...and we come full circle back....what to take as multitalented? :)
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If we aren't reaching a consensus on that question, it is probably a good thing.
Does that mean that the combat cantrips via otherworldly magic or rogue's class feat don't actually start with proficiency in spell attack?
Innate Spells: "You’re always trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your innate spells, even if you aren’t otherwise trained in spell attack rolls or spell DCs. If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too. You use your Charisma modifier as your spellcasting ability modifier for innate spells unless otherwise specified."
Wouldn't that mean that the cantrips gained via multiclass archetypes are stuck at Trained proficiency on to hit
Spellcasting Archetypes section:
"Expert Spellcasting Feat: Taken at 12th level, these feats make you an expert in spell attack rolls and DCs of the appropriate magical tradition""Master Spellcasting Feat: Upon reaching 18th level, these feats make you a master in spell attack rolls and DCs of the appropriate magical tradition"
If we aren't reaching a consensus on that question, it is probably a good thing.
tbf, it seems even the main character isn't completely finalized, so it's kinda harder.
the one thing that seems in consensus, is that Alchemist MC, if you don't plan to take the extra Alchemy feats, isn't that great compared to the other options.
It also depends on what you want to accomplish. Better in combat, vs utility as an example.
There's too many options! On the upside, you guys are giving me more ideas, and there's always a chance that something happens and a build might go awry so I've always felt it was good to keep options open.
@graystone: Seems like picking cantrips is only viable via Archetypes and with feat investment to keep the proficiencies high, and using the ancestry/general cantrips for utility that doesn't require spell attack?
@graystone: Seems like picking cantrips is only viable via Archetypes and with feat investment to keep the proficiencies high, and using the ancestry/general cantrips for utility that doesn't require spell attack?
Yes, you have to take the followup boost the spell proficiency. Ancestry/general cantrips proficiency goes up with your real proficiency: so if you take both ancestry and a caster multiclass, you increase both with the followup feats. This isn't really a burden as you get free spell slots for doing so: if you want to focus on the cantrips, you can take long lasting spells like mage armor/anthaul/false life and just cast them at the start of your adventuring day.
You have to make sure remember that cha is the stat for innate cantrips, so if you pick a multiclass caster that doesn't use cha, you'll have to use the innate cantrips for utility spells that don't use proficiency [like shield] unless you raise 2 mental stats at once.
@graystone: Seems like picking cantrips is only viable via Archetypes and with feat investment to keep the proficiencies high, and using the ancestry/general cantrips for utility that doesn't require spell attack?Yes, you have to take the followup boost the spell proficiency. Ancestry/general cantrips proficiency goes up with your real proficiency: so if you take both ancestry and a caster multiclass, you increase both with the followup feats. This isn't really a burden as you get free spell slots for doing so: if you want to focus on the cantrips, you can take long lasting spells like mage armor/anthaul/false life and just cast them at the start of your adventuring day.
You have to make sure remember that cha is the stat for innate cantrips, so if you pick a multiclass caster that doesn't use cha, you'll have to use the innate cantrips for utility spells that don't use proficiency [like shield] unless you raise 2 mental stats at once.
I'll be keeping Cha high on Rogue since it's really useful. Feints for flat-footed, Intimidate for Frightened, and Diplomacy for a merchant lifestyle via Bargain Hunter. Plus Create Diversion is perfect for pickpocketing.
Feels like a better stat than Int this time around since Rogue gets so many skill increases, it's easy to keep int skills high, and I feel like there's more Cha oriented skill feats than Int ones.
@graystone: Seems like picking cantrips is only viable via Archetypes and with feat investment to keep the proficiencies high, and using the ancestry/general cantrips for utility that doesn't require spell attack?Yes, you have to take the followup boost the spell proficiency. Ancestry/general cantrips proficiency goes up with your real proficiency: so if you take both ancestry and a caster multiclass, you increase both with the followup feats. This isn't really a burden as you get free spell slots for doing so: if you want to focus on the cantrips, you can take long lasting spells like mage armor/anthaul/false life and just cast them at the start of your adventuring day.
You have to make sure remember that cha is the stat for innate cantrips, so if you pick a multiclass caster that doesn't use cha, you'll have to use the innate cantrips for utility spells that don't use proficiency [like shield] unless you raise 2 mental stats at once.
I'll be keeping Cha high on Rogue since it's really useful. Feints for flat-footed, Intimidate for Frightened, and Diplomacy for a merchant lifestyle via Bargain Hunter. Plus Create Diversion is perfect for pickpocketing.
Feels like a better stat than Int this time around since Rogue gets so many skill increases, it's easy to keep int skills high, and I feel like there's more Cha oriented skill feats than Int ones.
if you go that way, then bard or sorc ded for multitalented fot sure...
If you were considering Fighter for your ruffian rogue then look at Combat Grab as your lvl4 feat and make sure your athletics skill is raised whenever possible. This means they are flat-footed to everyone, can’t move and any manipulate actions have a 20% failure chance. They can spend their actions trying to escape which are actions spent not doing anything useful, these escapes also suffer from MAP. Just reapply each round.
Pretty sure if you were going with spike gauntlets you could use this twice on two different enemies in a round, but since it’s press it’s with your 2nd and 3rd actions.
If you were considering Fighter for your ruffian rogue then look at Combat Grab as your lvl4 feat and make sure your athletics skill is raised whenever possible. This means they are flat-footed to everyone, can’t move and any manipulate actions have a 20% failure chance. They can spend their actions trying to escape which are actions spent not doing anything useful, these escapes also suffer from MAP. Just reapply each round.
Pretty sure if you were going with spike gauntlets you could use this twice on two different enemies in a round, but since it’s press it’s with your 2nd and 3rd actions.
I've been actually considering those. Snagging Strike and Combat Grab have decent synergy with two spiked gauntlets as my hands are about always free. I'll be going for legendary rank by 15th and grabbing Quick Swim and Quick Climb for climb/swim-speed at that level, seems really useful for an adventurer. Any idea if we can move the enemies while they are grabbed or is that maybe a possible future feat?
if you go that way, then bard or sorc ded for multitalented fot sure...
I've considered sorcerer, I suppose the cantrips would be nice enough, I'm not sure how many feats I'm willing to spend since the rogue feats that appeal to me start appearing around level 10th.
I've been considering the barbarian dip which I think you mentioned, but still a bit iffy on the anathemas, and being angery. I'm starting to consider maybe using adopted ancestry to open up more options if the ones I have at the moment don't work for me.