Tengu Eggs: Or, Paizo, do you anatomy?

[Draco18s]

I got pointed at this bit of the Bestiary:

Quote:

Tengus reproduce by laying eggs: the average tengu egg is about 11 inches in diameter and 16 inches tall and takes 4 months to hatch.

Yes, that's what it actually says.

Christ that's massive.

REALLY REALLY MASSIVE. Dear god, one would feed like twelve people if you made it into omelets.

Tengu aren't ravens, they're kiwi birds. I feel for their fragile bird pelvises.

;v;

[Kyrone]

Those poor Tengu mothers having to make an egg of the size of a watermelon.

[PossibleCabbage]

I guess Tengus should have wider pelvises than humans and this should be reflected in the art.

I fully confess to engaging in a conversation that was way too lengthy about whether or not Cecaelias should have breasts, however.

[Rysky]

That’s about the measurements for a human newborn I believe.

[Thebazilly]

Tengu are the same size as humans, and their babies are probably similar. Therefore, a Tengu would need to lay an egg large enough to contain a human newborn.

According to Wikipedia, the average infant is 14-20" measured from head to heel and weighs 6-10lbs... which means the 16" long egg is probably required!

[Temperans]

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

[Thebazilly]

Kyrone wrote:

Those poor Tengu mothers having to make an egg of the size of a watermelon.

Even more unfortunately, ovulation occurs in birds regardless of whether the egg is fertilized. Hopefully they only produce one a year.

[Fromper]

Thebazilly wrote:

Tengu are the same size as humans, and their babies are probably similar. Therefore, a Tengu would need to lay an egg large enough to contain a human newborn.

According to Wikipedia, the average infant is 14-20" measured from head to heel and weighs 6-10lbs... which means the 16" long egg is probably required!

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare their birthing process to birds? These are 3 times the size of Ostrich eggs!

[Arachnofiend]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I guess Tengus should have wider pelvises than humans and this should be reflected in the art.

Tengu are dummy thicc, confirmed

[graystone]

Thebazilly wrote:

Tengu are the same size as humans, and their babies are probably similar. Therefore, a Tengu would need to lay an egg large enough to contain a human newborn.

According to Wikipedia, the average infant is 14-20" measured from head to heel and weighs 6-10lbs... which means the 16" long egg is probably required!

Actually bird eggs go down in relative size the bigger the bird gets. For instance, an ostrich egg is 5.9 in long, 5.1 in)wide, and weighs 3.1 lb. that's at most 4% of the mothers [weight 140-320 lbs and up to 6'7" tall]. Hypselosaurus, 10 ton dinosaurs, had eggs were only 12" long and 10" wide. 11"x16" is HUGE! Time to welcome our new kaiju birdmen overlords!

[Alyran]

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Aren't eggs, when first laid, quite malleable?

[James Jacobs]

Looks like a typo/error to me.

[Corwin Icewolf]

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Also, bird bones are normally hollow, meaning the risk of injury would be higher.

Though, not all eggs have hard shells, some have rubbery shells. Admittedly, that's normally more of a reptile thing but worth mentioning.

James Jacobs wrote:

Looks like a typo/error to me.

So it's wrong? Out of curiosity how big are their eggs actually?

[Steelfiredragon]

if that is a typo how did it get passed QA?

they must have been cooking eggs in some form..... right?

[James Jacobs]

Steelfiredragon wrote:

if that is a typo how did it get passed QA?

they must have been cooking eggs in some form..... right?

Turns out when you produce two-thousand some words in a month, errors creep in.

[James Jacobs]

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

So it's wrong? Out of curiosity how big are their eggs actually?

Big enough to hold a baby tengu, small enough that them coming out of a tengu won't kill said tengu. (I suspect the initial size came into being from the expectation that a tengu baby should be about the same size as a human baby, which isn't quite accurate.)

I'm fine croudsourcing the answer here on this thread, in any event. :P

[BishopMcQ]

An ostrich egg is 6" long and about 5" in diameter, gives a capsule volume of 85 cubic inches. (Yes, eggs and capsules are different shapes, but this makes for easier math)

If we call a Tengu egg 9" long and 6" in diameter, that provides a volume of 198 cubic inches. That would give birth to a chick substantially larger than an ostrich chick, but still feasibly sized for a human sized pelvis. The chick once born then grows at an exponential rate similar to ostriches and humans.

[Gisher]

Rysky wrote:

That’s about the measurements for a human newborn I believe.

A newborn human has a head that is about 14 inches in circumference. That's a bit less than 5 inches in diameter. (And even then the skull bones are separate so the head can compress a lot.) An 11 inch diameter egg is huge.

[PossibleCabbage]

A Tengu is smaller than an Ostrich right? So a Tengu egg should be smaller than an Ostrich egg (which is roughly 6" long, and 5" wide.) Probably not proportionally smaller, but smaller.

[James Jacobs]

Gisher wrote:

Rysky wrote:

That’s about the measurements for a human newborn I believe.

A newborn human has a head that is about 14 inches in circumference. That's a bit less than 5 inches in diameter. (And even then the skull bones are separate so the head can compress a lot.) An 11 inch diameter egg is huge.

Ah! I bet that's where the error was. It should be 11 inches in circumference, not diameter. That makes a lot more sense to me.

[BishopMcQ]

They're both Medium size creatures in PF1, and Tengu are a bit thicker in stature.

[Temperans]

Given how the smallest adult ostrich is around 6ft and they weight up to 350 lbs. Why not have the egg be 5' tall and 4' or 3' wide it would also make a bit more sense when taking into account the smaller body size of a Tengu (compared to an ostrich) and their capacity to fly.

[Corwin Icewolf]

In the advanced race guide for pf1, tengu range from 4'2" to 5'2" for males, and 4' to 5' for females. Ostriches range from 6'11" to 9'2" for males and 5'5" to 6'6" for females. Ostriches also have a wider stance than tengu judging by the art. Emu are closer to tengu in size than ostriches, but again emu have a wider stance.

So maybe the size of an emu egg or a bit smaller.

Temperans wrote:

Given how the smallest adult ostrich is around 6ft and they weight up to 350 lbs. Why not have the egg be 5' tall and 4' or 3' wide it would also make a bit more sense when taking into account the smaller body size of a Tengu (compared to an ostrich) and their capacity to fly.

I sure hope you meant 5"(inches) tall and 4" wide, because if it's 5 feet we may as well be talking about Billy Hatcher eggs here.

[PossibleCabbage]

An emu egg is like 5" by 3.5", so that works. Could conceivably make them a bit bigger, since as an intelligent lifeform their young are probably more developed, but some of that might happen in the shell?

[Temperans]

That probably happens in the shell.

Also wow I can't believe my guess of 5' by 3 or 4 was so close. I just though, "eggs are more oval for fliers, so tengu should have slimmer eggs".

[Corwin Icewolf]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

An emu egg is like 5" by 3.5", so that works. Could conceivably make them a bit bigger, since as an intelligent lifeform their young are probably more developed, but some of that might happen in the shell?

Yeah that was what I was thinking. Birds do continue to develop in their shell.

Though something else I just thought of is that intelligent brains are more calorically demanding than non sapient brains, so they likely would be a bit bigger.

[Draco18s]

Alyran wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Aren't eggs, when first laid, quite malleable?

Reptile eggs, yes. Because they don't have a shell. The outer surface is a modified cell membrane.

Bird eggs, no. Because that hard bit on the outside that makes it so difficult to make omelets in the morning comes out of the bird already rigid. The cell membrane in bird eggs is the thin skin layer just under the shell that makes it easy to peel when hard boiled.

I (my mother) owned chickens for a couple years.

[graystone]

Draco18s wrote:

Alyran wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Aren't eggs, when first laid, quite malleable?

Reptile eggs, yes. Because they don't have a shell. The outer surface is a modified cell membrane.

Bird eggs, no. Because that hard bit on the outside that makes it so difficult to make omelets in the morning comes out of the bird already rigid. The cell membrane in bird eggs is the thin skin layer just under the shell that makes it easy to peel when hard boiled.

I (my mother) owned chickens for a couple years.

To throw a wrench in things, mammal eggs are soft. ;)

[Corwin Icewolf]

graystone wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

Alyran wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Aren't eggs, when first laid, quite malleable?

Reptile eggs, yes. Because they don't have a shell. The outer surface is a modified cell membrane.

Bird eggs, no. Because that hard bit on the outside that makes it so difficult to make omelets in the morning comes out of the bird already rigid. The cell membrane in bird eggs is the thin skin layer just under the shell that makes it easy to peel when hard boiled.

I (my mother) owned chickens for a couple years.

To throw a wrench in things, mammal eggs are soft. ;)

Chicken eggs can be soft if the chickens don't get enough calcium though.

Also, mammal eggs? Isn't there only one living species of mammal that even lays eggs? Edit: nvm there's five. I forgot that echidnas also lay eggs.

[Draco18s]

James Jacobs wrote:

Ah! I bet that's where the error was. It should be 11 inches in circumference, not diameter. That makes a lot more sense to me.

That would make a lot more sense. It would still be impressively large but at least on the not-immersion-breaking end of the spectrum.

As an aside, the shell takes time to form. Chickens lay one egg about every 24 hours (plus or minus an hour) of which the egg spends 20 hours in the shell gland getting its nice pearly white outer surface (20 -> 44 hours is roughly double for an increased thickness on the order of 10x).

Chicken shells are also not very thick. Ostrich eggs are about 2 millimeters thick and cursory research shows that ostriches lay one egg every other day (during breeding season, chickens are weird in that they lay all year round, thanks humans!) so it spends quite a bit more time getting its shell, though it appears that the process is occurring more rapidly in the ostrich (probably accounts for the less-smooth surface?).

Chicken eggs hatch in about 21 days and ostriches in 42.

So 4 months for tengu is not [i]unreasonable[/u], only two and a half times longer than an ostrich for an egg of comparable size (if we go by adjusted numbers regarding s/diameter/circumference), which kind of makes sense as tengu are going to be less vulnerable to predation during the gestation period (all that "culture" and "society" junk).

Just to throw some numbers out there.

[Alyran]

Draco18s wrote:

Alyran wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Human babies are also much softer and squishy when new born, as opposed to eggs with their hard shells.

Aren't eggs, when first laid, quite malleable?

Reptile eggs, yes. Because they don't have a shell. The outer surface is a modified cell membrane.

Bird eggs, no. Because that hard bit on the outside that makes it so difficult to make omelets in the morning comes out of the bird already rigid. The cell membrane in bird eggs is the thin skin layer just under the shell that makes it easy to peel when hard boiled.

I (my mother) owned chickens for a couple years.

Cool! Thank you, I learned something new.

[Rysky]

James Jacobs wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Rysky wrote:

That’s about the measurements for a human newborn I believe.

A newborn human has a head that is about 14 inches in circumference. That's a bit less than 5 inches in diameter. (And even then the skull bones are separate so the head can compress a lot.) An 11 inch diameter egg is huge.

Ah! I bet that's where the error was. It should be 11 inches in circumference, not diameter. That makes a lot more sense to me.

Yeah, those words always slipped me up in maths >_<

[Corvo Spiritwind]

This thread is eggcellent.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Apparently it takes about 90 minutes to hardball an ostrich egg, so how long would it take for one of these badboys?

[Rysky]

That's cannibalism so you'd have to ask the Urgathoans.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Rysky wrote:

That's cannibalism so you'd have to ask the Urgathoans.

Tengu hard-boiling tengu eggs and eating them, I guess.

[Set]

Rysky wrote:

That's cannibalism so you'd have to ask the Urgathoans.

It's only cannibalism to eat Tengu if you *are* a Tengu.

If you are any other sapient race, it's not technically cannibalism (eating your own species). It's just wrong. :)

Putting ketchup on your tengu egg scramble is *deliciously* wrong.

[CorvusMask]

It IS Pathfinder Cannibalism however because there isn't official word for eating intelligent beings :p

[Fumarole]

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

Also, mammal eggs? Isn't there only one living species of mammal that even lays eggs? Edit: nvm there's five. I forgot that echidnas also lay eggs.

Yes, mammal eggs, otherwise known as ovum in humans. The largest cell in humans and what is fertilized by spermatozoa. graystone was making a jest.

[Rysky]

Set wrote:

Rysky wrote:

That's cannibalism so you'd have to ask the Urgathoans.

It's only cannibalism to eat Tengu if you *are* a Tengu.

If you are any other sapient race, it's not technically cannibalism (eating your own species). It's just wrong. :)

Putting ketchup on your tengu egg scramble is *deliciously* wrong.

*SMITE*

[Diego Hopkins]

Tengu omelettes are a delicacy reserved for the inhabitants of Geb and the Eye of Dread. The vampire lords and their dhampir offspring dine upon these rare and succulent delights, prepared by the finest Chelaxian chefs, who've sold their souls for their skills in the kitchen. They finish off their meal with a glass of tengu blood, freshly harvested from the mother hen.

This has been Life Styles of the Lich and Famous.

[Kyrone]

But that raises a question...

Would cook and eat unfertilized Tengu eggs wrong? They would be discarded anyway.

[Chief Cook and Bottlewasher]

Most birds don't lay unfertilised eggs. Chickens are an exception

[Deadmanwalking]

Kyrone wrote:

But that raises a question...

Would cook and eat unfertilized Tengu eggs wrong? They would be discarded anyway.

As noted they probably don't lay these. If they did, no, like drinking menstrual blood this would not be morally wrong if you had the woman in question's permission. Just potentially disgusting.

[Takamorisan]

This makes me extra sad the fact that we don't have inquisitors. We need to do some purging.

[Ravingdork]

Is it still cannibalism if it's unfertilized?

It seems to me that eating an unfertilized egg would be about as lacking in taboo as drinking breast milk.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ravingdork wrote:

Is it still cannibalism if it's unfertilized?

Is drinking someone's blood?

Really, it's a bit of a philosophical question with no good answer.

[Erk Ander]

So are ThiCC Tengu going to be a thing now ?

[Charlaquin]

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

Most birds don't lay unfertilised eggs. Chickens are an exception

That’s not quite true; while it is relatively rare for wild birds to lay unfertilized eggs, the only reason they don’t do so is because they’re reliably getting their eggs fertilized in the wild. On the rare occasion that a wild female bird isn’t successfully fertilized during its mating season, it will still lay the egg, and even attempt to incubate it.

So, do tengu lay unfertilized eggs? Depends if she wants kids.

[Draco18s]

Charlaquin wrote:

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

Most birds don't lay unfertilised eggs. Chickens are an exception

That’s not quite true; while it is relatively rare for wild birds to lay unfertilized eggs, the only reason they don’t do so is because they’re reliably getting their eggs fertilized in the wild. On the rare occasion that a wild female bird isn’t successfully fertilized during its mating season, it will still lay the egg, and even attempt to incubate it.

That's not wholly true either. There are species of birds that don't lay eggs except after a successful mating. I'm blanking on an example at the moment, closest I can come up with in <5 minutes is the snowy owl, which lays more eggs depending on how many lemmings her mate brings her during the courting period (an example that has a seemingly odd correlation).

The gryphons of the series of books The Black Gryphon had weird biological quirks like that baked in because their wizard creator wanted to insure that the only gryphons that would have kids would be the ones that were going to be decent parents. Quirks inspired by real birds (because Weis did her research).

Essentially its just a matter of the right "triggers" arising due to selection pressures.