applecat144 |
First things first, a reminder of what this deeds exactly says :
Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th-level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The gunslinger only misfires on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are misfires. She cannot perform this deed with a blunderbuss or other scatter weapon when attacking creatures in a cone. The gunslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed.
There are few things that I'd note. First, it says that you make as many attack rolls as you can, based on your BBA. While this is unclear and, AFAIK, not really sorted, it means that this deed doesn't take care of extra attacks coming from rapid shot, haste, or any other source.
Second thing is that it's a full-round action, so it can't be combined with vital strike.
Considering this, I don't get the point of this deed. It's pretty much a vital strike that cost grit and doesn't allow you to move, or a full attack that doesn't allow you to take a 5-foot step and that deals less damages.
Well, it has some pros. It can help with DR, help for crits, it's easier to hit but that's just not enough imo to justify the cost of 1 grit point. Anyway you have clustured shot for DR, and even with 4 BBA you aren't going to crit THAT often so you'd rather make all your attacks either way. And if you really want to crit there's the lethal patience deed at level 15. Finally, hitting has never been hard with gunslingers, especially at higher levels.
It costs only 1 ammo to shoot, yes, but anyway as a gunslinger you need your reloading gears and feats so this isn't relevant by the time you can actually perform the deed.
All this to say that I can't find a good reason to use this deed. What about you ?
MrCharisma |
... this deed doesn't take care of extra attacks coming from rapid shot, haste, or any other source.
I'll assume "take care of" means "allow you to include". If so then correct. At level 7 you make 2 attack rolls, when you reach +11BAB you make 3 attack rolls, and when you reach +16BAB you kake 4 attack rolls.
Second thing is that it's a full-round action, so it can't be combined with vital strike.
Correct.
Considering this, I don't get the point of this deed. It's pretty much a vital strike that cost grit and doesn't allow you to move, or a full attack that doesn't allow you to take a 5-foot step and that deals less damages.
You can still make a 5 foot step when you take a full-round-action.
It usually deals damage as a Vital Strike (so your damage comparisons would be correct), but you don't need to spend any feats to use this.
All this to say that I can't find a good reason to use this deed. What about you ?
Yeah it's not amazing, it's more thematic than anything else. Imagine a duel where you're only allowed to shoot one bullet. Or if your ammo stores are somehow depleted. It does reduce the chance of a misfire significantly as well.
The only time I've seen it used was on co junction with the spell:"Named Bullet".
applecat144 |
Re-reading it, however, I have a doubt about the part that doesn't allow you to include extra attacks from rapid shot and haste.
"The gunslinger [...] pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot".
This suggest that you can include extra attacks, since it specifies "all of her attack potential".
Furthermore, later you can read the following :
"If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0)"
As far as I know, you can have 4 BBA at max at level 20, but it suggests that you can reduce the penalty to the crit confirm roll to 0, which automatically imply that you roll at least 5 dices. So despite the unclear phrasing, I'd be tempted to say that the person who wrote this had in mind that you would include extra attacks from other sources when using this deed. Especially since "based on your BBA" doesn't strictly exclude attacks awarded by other sources.
That would also make the deed relevent and not highly situational, as MrCharisma described it.
Thing is, we're playing a game in which I'm not the GM, but I'm the "rule guy" and I'd like to have this sorted, if there's an errata it's great, otherwise I'll have to talk about it with the GM.
MrCharisma |
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Re-reading it, however, I have a doubt about the part that doesn't allow you to include extra attacks from rapid shot and haste.
"The gunslinger [...] pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot".
This suggest that you can include extra attacks, since it specifies "all of her attack potential".
The part you quoted is the flavour text. The actual rules about how many attacks you make say this:
When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus.
This text states that the attacks made are your iteratives due to a high BAB. I could see an argument for some things, but "Rapid Shot" is about making more attacks and thematically doesn't fit here at all.
Furthermore, later you can read the following :
"If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0)"
As far as I know, you can have 4 BBA at max at level 20, but it suggests that you can reduce the penalty to the crit confirm roll to 0, which automatically imply that you roll at least 5 dices. So despite the unclear phrasing, I'd be tempted to say that the person who wrote this had in mind that you would include extra attacks from other sources when using this deed. Especially since "based on your BBA" doesn't strictly exclude attacks awarded by other sources.
You're correct that you can't get to more than 4 attacks by level 20 due to BAB, but if people play above level 20 they may change that. Rules like this are also often written in a generic way in order to account for any changes that may be made to the game at a later date, so this text is likely just written as a catch-all in case something changed this to the point where the "penalty" ended up giving them an attack bonus.
That would also make the deed relevent and not highly situational, as MrCharisma described it.
Thing is, we're playing a game in which I'm not the GM, but I'm the "rule guy" and I'd like to have this sorted, if there's an errata it's great, otherwise I'll have to talk about it with the GM.
I think this is going to be a situational deed, but to counter the need to improve it I'd say that the Gunslinger is the last class that needs a boost to damage output. If you allow Rapid-Shot/Haste to add to this then a 7th level Gunslinger can potentially roll 4 attacks with this deed. If even 1 attack is a crit then there's a very high chance that you confirm and end up rolling something like 16d8+44 damage (~116 average damage). While the Gunslinger could use some help to be more relevant in some situations in the game, Damage output has never been their problem and probably shouldn't be buffed.
I would also ask: Are you the one playing the Gunslinger or are you searching for answers for another member of the group?
If you're playing the Gunslinger then you being the "rules guy" have a responsibility to make sure you present everything in a balanced way to the GM to avoid any kind of bias. I'm the rules guy in my group so I'm very careful to check before I take any feats/traits/spells/etc that might be considered unbalanced. I even check if it's just something I think the GM won't have seen.
applecat144 |
I'm the gunslinger in this game, but I'll be as impartial as possible. I've been dying several time for recalling a rule to the GM so I'm quite used to it :D
Anyway, as you stated the gunslinger doesn't need damages, with or without this deed, and by level 7 you don't need to roll crazy for all your attacks to hit. But I would have liked to play around this to add some flavor and change from the usual "bullet-ridden" style.
Derklord |
I don't get the point of this deed. It's pretty much a vital strike that cost grit and doesn't allow you to move, or a full attack that doesn't allow you to take a 5-foot step and that deals less damages.
Well, considering how crappy the entire class is, I honestly doubt that a lot of thinking went into it. But the main upside of Dead Shot is that it severely reduces the chance of misfire, especially at BAB 11+ (so you have a level or two with it before you can get your hands on a +1 Greater Relible Musket, yay!).
Yes, Dead Shot is crap. As are Targeting, Bleeding Wound, Expert Loading, Lightning Reload, and Menacing Shot (probably Death’s Shot and Stunning Shot as well). Indeed, the entire class is worthless to stay in after 5th level (7th level for Black Power Vaulter), because multiclassing would simply grant you more. That's what happens when Paizo makes a class with no selectable class feature, that's based on a poorly balanced gimmick, and isn't a Fighter archetype only so that stupid kiddies who think they need a distinct class to play anything stop whining.
DeusTerran |
Considering this, I don't get the point of this deed. It's pretty much a vital strike that cost grit and doesn't allow you to move, or a full attack that doesn't allow you to take a 5-foot step and that deals less damages.
Well, it has some pros. It can help with DR, help for crits, it's easier to hit but that's just not enough imo to justify the cost of 1 grit point. Anyway you have clustured shot for DR, and even with 4 BBA you aren't going to crit THAT often so you'd rather make all your attacks either way. And if you really want to crit there's the lethal patience deed at level 15. Finally, hitting has never been hard with gunslingers, especially at higher levels.
It costs only 1 ammo to shoot, yes, but anyway as a gunslinger you need your reloading gears and feats so this isn't relevant by the time you can actually perform the deed.
All this to say that I can't find a good reason to use this deed. What about you ?
Five words; Double Hackbut plus named bullet.
Talonhawke |
To resolutely solve the issue of haste and other such effects see this FAQ
Dead Shot: When it says you make the number of attack rolls based on your base attack bonus, would that also include extra attacks from things like haste or Rapid Shot?
No, dead shot only includes attacks from base attack bonus (so two attack rolls at 7th, three at 11th, four at 16th). Dead shot is meant more of a backup option for particular situations (such as shooting against something with high hardness or avoiding misfires).
Cavall |
It is used to overcome DR and lower level critical threats are more likely to be confirmed. It also uses less ammo and has less misfire.
If you have few bullets left and wish to use actions for other things or can'treload quickly, this is a good way to hit something, or hit something with a lot of resistance to damage.
It is niche but far from useless.