albadeon wrote: Zapp wrote: I wouldn't consider it unreasonable for a level 4 character to reach a town, a level 6 character to reach a city and a level 10 character to find a metropolis. So in general, I would say these restrictions aren't as harsh as they first appear, at least not until level 10. That is, I would think it reasonable for a character willing and able to move, to be able to find a task of his or her own level. For comparison, looking at the Age of Ashes adventure path, the biggest settlement in Part 3 is level 7 (with PCs expected to be level 9-12), while the only settlement in part 4 is level 5 (with PCs expected to be level 12-15). For the settlements in parts 1 and 2, no levels are given, but I wouldn't expect them to be much higher.
Sure, the PCs could travel to some metropolis, but getting there takes time as well, which you could otherwise spend crafting. Again, how your GM handles this has a major impact. If he just chooses to let you travel instantly for free, crafting is going to be worth less by comparison. But if you have to make the choice between crafting level 10 items for 28 days or spending 14 days on the road to do 14 days of level 10 earn income, it might be looking more attractive.
Yes, I said "It might dry up sooner if the campaign is set in a fixed place which means the heroes stay put in a smaller settlement."
My comment was made with a home campaign in mind, where there isn't a prewritten story that keeps the heroes to a selected locale.
If the game is a home game nothing prevents the GM from adopting the "level-2" rule even when running an official adventure path.
In this case it would allow level 13 crafting in that part 4 settlement you mention.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
K1 wrote: Not selling for half price.
Selling on request.
An item is worth X
You can sell it to vendor for X/2
If somebody would like to buy your Services, the minimum price is the full item price.
If the are no competitors, or the item is unavailable, or the materials are not easy to get, you could even increase the price.
Thinking that you craft to sell to a vendor is definitely wrong.
Well, if you want to balance the system by letting the PC crafter sell his goods for higher than the listed price, that certainly is another way of going about it. However, in general, the entire crafting system is set up to allow for crafting at a small profit if you craft an item to use it, but make it unprofitable to sell it.
Or did I miss a reference in the CRB somewhere that selling (crafted) goods at better than 50%, or even better than 100% of the list price should be a possiblity? I guess, if you specifically crafted pieces of art, you should be able to sell them for full price according to the RAW. But most items, not so much.
Gaterie wrote:
In other words, any level 1-10 character can chose any level 1-10 task if he lives in a metropolis.
And let's be serious: reaching a metropolis isn't a great accomplishment. It's, you know, the perfect exemple of a low-level task: use secured road to attain a secured area. This is why, you know, there are so many low-level people in the metropolis: because it's easy to reach and well-secured.
Quote: The Society rule of "level-2" seems like a reasonable compromise. No. Any character should be able to chose any level 1-10 task.
I don't understand you.
You talk as if your character's greatest dream was to craft. (For a character whose greatest dream is to craft, moving to the big city is entirely reasonable)
You seem to forget your character exists to adventure.
Most adventures start in smaller settlements, and many of them never give the heroes any significant time off to visit a metropolis, at least not before leveling up several times.
In fact, I recommend you use the text as your guide: start your level 1 characters off in small level 1 settlements and don't feature a metropolis until level 8.
Quote: Quote: The Society rule of "level-2" seems like a reasonable compromise. No. Any character should be able to chose any level 1-10 task.
No, that's just not reasonable.
Only big cities offer high-level tasks, and low-level characters seldom have the time or the inclination to tourist.
Good luck with your game
albadeon wrote: K1 wrote: Not selling for half price.
Selling on request.
An item is worth X
You can sell it to vendor for X/2
If somebody would like to buy your Services, the minimum price is the full item price.
If the are no competitors, or the item is unavailable, or the materials are not easy to get, you could even increase the price.
Thinking that you craft to sell to a vendor is definitely wrong.
Well, if you want to balance the system by letting the PC crafter sell his goods for higher than the listed price, that certainly is another way of going about it. However, in general, the entire crafting system is set up to allow for crafting at a small profit if you craft an item to use it, but make it unprofitable to sell it.
Or did I miss a reference in the CRB somewhere that selling (crafted) goods at better than 50%, or even better than 100% of the list price should be a possiblity? I guess, if you specifically crafted pieces of art, you should be able to sell them for full price according to the RAW. But most items, not so much. There is a feat with diplomacy which is meant to bargain in order to get an item or to get better items to sell.
However, it is implicit in rules:
If you sell an item, the vendor will pay u half. If you work as a vendor, you sell at full price.
It is not that every day you will get to sell a magic item, but as you buy for the full price from a vendor, it is logic that other characters will do the same.
You may not be a magic items vendor, but you can work on demand. And then the price will be the same as buying the item from a vendor.
Just this.
The 1/2 cost, since there is no first hand or second hand issues, is meant to give an item a value.
You can keep it, or you can sell it for half its value and invest the money in something else. It is just balance.
However if let's say a lord will hire you to craft an item worth 5k, is not that he will buy it from you for 2.5k. He will pay u the full price.
There’s no need for rule. It is just logic imho.
You can also start your level 1 characters off in a big city where decent-paying, honest low level jobs might be harder to find. Variety is fun.
In general though, PCs will be where the adventure is, not in whatever location is optimal for them to earn money through professional work.
Henro wrote: You can also start your level 1 characters off in a big city where decent-paying, honest low level jobs might be harder to find. Variety is fun.
In general though, PCs will be where the adventure is, not in whatever location is optimal for them to earn money through professional work.
I disagree.
On the one hand, because by checking through examples given in lore skills, we can see that the more we proceed, the less we are required to stay in a specific place.
Quote: These examples use Alcohol Lore to work in a bar or Legal Lore to perform legal work.
Trained bartend, do legal research
Expert curate drink selection, present minor court cases
Master run a large brewery, present important court cases
Legendary run an international brewing franchise, present a case in Hell’s courts
You own a brewery?
You will be able to earn without being there.
You own a franchise?
Same.
Hell Court?
You will get summoned and Sent back.
On the other hand, you could simply provvide help dealing with stuff you can do without playing during downtime.
While lvl 8 you could deal with goblin tribes without playing a thing, since you will be stomping them. And you could get then allowed to make a check for your retribution, maybe based on diplomacy, intimidation or deception.
Endless possibilities.
K1 wrote: I disagree.
On the one hand, because by checking through examples given in lore skills, we can see that the more we proceed, the less we are required to stay in a specific place.
I mostly agree here, actually. I should have clarified I was mostly talking about low-to-mid level PCs.
You are absolutely right that as PCs level up, their options for travel increase.
Temperans wrote: Everyone saying the rules are for PCs does know that crafting is a matter of skill and efficiency right? Aka the process to make a sword is the same no matter who makes it: You heat metal, shape it, sharpen it, heat treat it, and apply finishing touches. The process wont add an extra step or use up more material unless the crafter is purposely doing things poorly or differently. There's a reason a Master Electrician can unbox, assemble and install 3 ceiling fans in an hour while it takes a typical handy homeowner at least triple that time. It's the difference between someone who has been doing that work all day, every day for 20 years & has all the tools and experience, vs someone who just "knows how to do it".
mrspaghetti wrote: Temperans wrote: Everyone saying the rules are for PCs does know that crafting is a matter of skill and efficiency right? Aka the process to make a sword is the same no matter who makes it: You heat metal, shape it, sharpen it, heat treat it, and apply finishing touches. The process wont add an extra step or use up more material unless the crafter is purposely doing things poorly or differently. There's a reason a Master Electrician can unbox, assemble and install 3 ceiling fans in an hour while it takes a typical handy homeowner at least triple that time. It's the difference between someone who has been doing that work all day, every day for 20 years & has all the tools and experience, vs someone who just "knows how to do it". I see that as an example of Trained/Expert (aka professional) vs Untrained (newbie or trying not to pay). Not PC vs NPC, which is what I was commenting on.
If the npc needed rules to govern how they operate their business (which they don't, as simulating that adds nothing to the game), they wouldn't do craft checks to make items and then sell those items, and neither should a PC. If your intent is to use crafting to earn money, then the more correct way for the GM to adjudicate that is by making it an earn an income activity using their craft skill (the earn an income activity specifically mentions the craft skill being an option for which skill to use for the check).
The reason that the maths doesn't add up for the craft activity to be profitable is because it is the wrong choice of activity for adjudicating what happens when a crafter seeks to make money. (It is also a much clunkier way to adjudicate earning an income from crafting as it requires more maths and checks than the alternative).
The in universe activity is still the same (for example, you spend your spare time forging swords for sale to local nobility), and you apply the same skill, but the GM needs to choose the correct rules apparatus to adjudicate the results of that activity.
and with NPCs, usually the correct rules apparatus to apply to adjudicate how much income they earn by crafting is "none, why are you wasting valuable GMing time and brain energy on simulating something that has little relevance to the players, if it comes up you can just roll up an amount then and the players won't really know the difference between"
Temperans wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Temperans wrote: Everyone saying the rules are for PCs does know that crafting is a matter of skill and efficiency right? Aka the process to make a sword is the same no matter who makes it: You heat metal, shape it, sharpen it, heat treat it, and apply finishing touches. The process wont add an extra step or use up more material unless the crafter is purposely doing things poorly or differently. There's a reason a Master Electrician can unbox, assemble and install 3 ceiling fans in an hour while it takes a typical handy homeowner at least triple that time. It's the difference between someone who has been doing that work all day, every day for 20 years & has all the tools and experience, vs someone who just "knows how to do it". I see that as an example of Trained/Expert (aka professional) vs Untrained (newbie or trying not to pay). Not PC vs NPC, which is what I was commenting on. No, even if they both read the same books and took the same courses, the difference would still exist because of the very important "all day, every day for 20 years" factor.
I'd say it also depends the tasks.
Imagine a blackmither who worked for 20 years in his Village.
And a blacksmither who worked for 2 years in a big city, making weapons for the guards.
Temperans has imho a point.
Or eventually a Dwarf master weaponsmith compared to the blacksmither who worked for the same years in the Big city, forging weapons for the guards.
K1 wrote: I'd say it also depends the tasks.
Imagine a blackmither who worked for 20 years in his Village.
And a blacksmither who worked for 2 years in a big city, making weapons for the guards.
Temperans has imho a point.
Or eventually a Dwarf master weaponsmith compared to the blacksmither who worked for the same years in the Big city, forging weapons for the guards.
I think 20 years barely makes you a journeyman smith among dwarves - what a dwarf would call a master has probably been smithing 14 hours a day for 80 years or something ridiculous (well, actually not that ridiculous, many real world human masters at things are generally pretty long in the tooth before they are considered masters).
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His skills would be higher than the Big city weaponsmith, whose skills would be higher than the Village blacksmither.
Time means nothing.
That was the point of the comparison.
K1 wrote: His skills would be higher than the Big city weaponsmith, whose skills would be higher than the Village blacksmither.
Time means nothing.
That was the point of the comparison.
You would be surprised to learn that many famous blacksmithing masters (you can just call them blacksmiths, the -er is both redundant and incorrect) in both history and fiction lived their entire lives in little villages.
And saying time means nothing is something almost every person who has ever learned a craft would disagree with. Mastery comes from practicing your craft daily for many years, and while there is variability in the quality of the experience, time is still incredibly meaningful. There are lower limits where you can't master a skill without spending more time, no matter how good your teachers or supplies (even Masamune probably couldn't turn an apprentice into a master swordsmith in under 5 years).
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So are there exceptions?
That was really unexpected.
Like the main characters of the adventures we all play.
Isnt the tier meant to represent the difference in time training? At least I was sure that was the intent. A person isnt born an Expert or Master they have to train to get that good. So the Expert Electrician could had spent 5-15 years in the trade (depending on talent); unlike the untrained person having spent a few days.
Tender Tendrils wrote: K1 wrote: His skills would be higher than the Big city weaponsmith, whose skills would be higher than the Village blacksmither.
Time means nothing.
That was the point of the comparison.
You would be surprised to learn that many famous blacksmithing masters (you can just call them blacksmiths, the -er is both redundant and incorrect) in both history and fiction lived their entire lives in little villages.
And saying time means nothing is something almost every person who has ever learned a craft would disagree with. Mastery comes from practicing your craft daily for many years, and while there is variability in the quality of the experience, time is still incredibly meaningful. There are lower limits where you can't master a skill without spending more time, no matter how good your teachers or supplies (even Masamune probably couldn't turn an apprentice into a master swordsmith in under 5 years). There is a difference between having a legendary blacksmith live in a remote village. And every remote village having a legendary blacksmith.
Maybe do some social rolls in the big city to find the location of the legendary guy. Then track him though the woods. Then climb the mountain pass up to the tiny village. And then he sends you on a quest to clear out the mine so he can get his high grade ore...
That wasnt even close to the point of that response. He never said "every remote village has a legendary blacksmiths" or that they should be easy to hire. Just that in literature (irl or fiction) they were more often away from cities.
And just think about it, why would a person so dedicated to crafting stay in a city where there is noise, bandits, stupid nobles thinking they can just barge in, etc. There is also the fact that adversity fosters innovation, it is vastly more likely that the city blacksmith becomes more complacent and just makes whatever makes him easy money. That's not to say there are good crafters in cities, as the government would probably make sure that the soldiers are well fitted and that any metal work is properly maintained/crafted.
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Now dwarfs are a totally different than most crafters. They probably make entire cities dedicated to crafting whether its metal, stone, or ale. I mean their head god is the god of crafting.
Quote: Haven't fully gone through everything related to crafting yet - but doesn't this argument rely on the assumption that you always have access to at-level work during downtime? After all, the reduction in price for crafting is based on your level instead of the task level. On the other hand, work you can find earns money based on the task level, which is influenced by a settlement level that seems to cap out at 10 for a metropolis or capital city. Past level 10, you either need to be be at, "the largest cities in the world or another plane," to easily get earned income at an 11+ task level.
So it seems like crafting may not necessarily be the 'optimal income' method at lower levels when plenty of people can make the same things and other jobs are just as profitable. But sometime past level 10 you'll almost always start saving more money by continued crafting instead of picking up a (lower level) job.
Some number crunching may be needed to determine the exact point crafting profit outdoes the loss of income from the first 4 days, but you'll also have to take into account that the GM can require you to spend, "1 day or more of downtime looking for leads on new jobs." Not to mention that the initial jobs found may not be at the highest level available in the settlement, which might require spending more downtime on using Diplomacy to Gather Information. Crafting by contrast seems like it has a very consistent 4 day period before you start making profit, where earned income has a 1-? day period before getting the job required to start making profit.
Overall, I wouldn't consider Crafting to be in a bad place for making money. It can be used to earn income in the normal way during downtime AND potentially craft items above the level of a settlement's available jobs to save more money compared to working+buying from someone else. If it takes more than 4 days to find a high enough level job (which gets increasingly difficult or even impossible as the party's level goes up compared to nearby settlements), then Crafting seems like it could frequently be a superior option for total cost savings even at levels before 10.
This reply just eased our minds quite a bit. In our groups, we've been thinking about the problem with Crafting for months now, and we hadn't thought about higher levels and the difficulty of getting access to level-adjusted jobs for Earning Income.
This certainly gives it more sense. There are still some gaps, we think; but then again, PF2 does not intend to create a detailed self-sustaining economic system...
Thanks!
Charon Onozuka wrote: mrspaghetti wrote: Essentially, the way the rules for crafting are written, it is NEVER worthwhile to craft an item you can buy instead. You make ZERO income for the 4 mandatory days before your skill check, and after that you only reduce the price of the item by the same amount you would have gotten by Earning Income. So Crafting nets you 4 days less value in every scenario.
Haven't fully gone through everything related to crafting yet - but doesn't this argument rely on the assumption that you always have access to at-level work during downtime? First off, we should repeat that the availability of task levels isn't regulated by the CRB and thus depends on the adventure and GM.
That said, it is always much better for you (the crafter) to bring your party over to a larger settlement, than stay in whatever backwater town we're discussing (since we discuss the case where you're higher level the the tasks available). And adventurers quickly gain the ability to travel widely.
This because if the task level is limited, the only value of Crafting is not sucking compared to your friends.
Let me rephrase that: the only value of Crafting (as regards task income) lies in watching your friends suck (doing low-level tasks).
If they too have access to level-appropriate task, your Crafting gives you no edge. So you need to "hope" for crappy towns that the story 1) prevents you from evacuating, yet 2) forces you to stick around for many weeks and months.
I hope I don't have to tell you how miserable this makes these rules feel.
In every other scenario, there is no earning aspect. If you can leave Hicksville, that's better for the whole party. Otherwise, perhaps choose not to do downtime? Even an easy adventure that's beneath your level will easily make you much more cash! Heck, just going into the wilderness or nearest dungeon is likely to net you way more gold than staying around in Hicksville only to see your friends languish earning their paltry income...
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