Looking through things, I noticed that the Four Essences create the four traditions by combos of twos: Arcane is Matter and Mind, Occult is Mind and Spirit, Divine is Spirit and Life, and Primal is Life and Matter. This is all well and good, but that leaves two other possibilities: Matter and Spirit and Life and Mind.
Obviously I could homebrew two additional traditions for these, but I was wondering if anyone knew or could explain why these combos aren't included as two additional traditions or if they are included where I missed them.
This also does not include singles or three [Matter, Mind, Spirit; Matter, Mind, Life; Mind, Spirit, Life; Spirit, Life, Matter] or all four in one. Of course, these last ones are likely not included due to balance issues.
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It would seem that with the way magic is set up now, even if there technically is room for more essence combinations, so much of the rules in the CRB are set up in a way that would make new traditions an absolute PAIN to add. I feel like if Paizo did intend for other traditions to exist, they would futureproof the rules to allow for that, but the fact that they didn't (and I vaguely recall them talking about how they don't intend on doing more traditions) likely to me indicates that, for better or for worse, the four we have are the four we will have for the foreseeable future.
It would seem that with the way magic is set up now, even if there technically is room for more essence combinations, so much of the rules in the CRB are set up in a way that would make new traditions an absolute PAIN to add. I feel like if Paizo did intend for other traditions to exist, they would futureproof the rules to allow for that, but the fact that they didn't (and I vaguely recall them talking about how they don't intend on doing more traditions) likely to me indicates that, for better or for worse, the four we have are the four we will have for the foreseeable future.
Okay, thanks! I'm still plodding through everything and getting all the new stuff in my head.
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I think the thing is that there is room for 2 more lists, since vital/mental and material/spiritual are sort opposite essences, it's going to take a specific flavor for "how to present this list" as it combines things that Avistan's leading magical scholars believe is impossible to combine.
It would be a good avenue to explore for Vudrani magic, which is supposedly pretty advanced, but different from how others do it. A psychic tradition for vital+mental being "mind over body over mind over body..." would work. I'm not sure what spirit+matter would be like, perhaps tied to some sort of animist tradition in entreating with the fundamental essence of all things.
The vital/mind nexus sounds very flavorfully like it would fit with witches, who are known both for being able to heal and being as big brained as they come.
Creative Director
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One of our behind-the-scenes goals with codifying four traditions of magic was to fight the way spellcaster lists grew more and more complex in 1st edition, so that whenever we listed a new spell near the end we had to make sure it fit well with an increasingly large number of different types of spellcasters, many of whom had identical spells showing up at different levels. Look at how in Planar Adventures, for example, we needed four pages of content to cover the spell lists for only eight pages of spells; had we a more streamlined and simpler system of categorizing spell lists, we could have easily had only ONE page of spell lists and 3 additional pages for new spells in that section!
So, while we certainly could add more magic traditions, I don't think that's part of the plan. We'll see where things go, of course, but we've done a LOT of behind-the-scenes thinking and work on making sure these four traditions will work for ALL of the potential new classes and stuff we want to do going forward with 2nd edition.
I think the thing is that there is room for 2 more lists, since vital/mental and material/spiritual are sort opposite essences, it's going to take a specific flavor for "how to present this list" as it combines things that Avistan's leading magical scholars believe is impossible to combine.
It would be a good avenue to explore for Vudrani magic, which is supposedly pretty advanced, but different from how others do it. A psychic tradition for vital+mental being "mind over body over mind over body..." would work. I'm not sure what spirit+matter would be like, perhaps tied to some sort of animist tradition in entreating with the fundamental essence of all things.
Opposites could also be said to attract, so it could be interesting for Vudrani magic as advanced concepts that work almost like Yin/Yang. Mind and Body can affect one another in interesting ways, and certainly animist traditions of everything having some kind of Spirit, even inanimate objects, would work.
The vital/mind nexus sounds very flavorfully like it would fit with witches, who are known both for being able to heal and being as big brained as they come.
*nods* I could easily see the Shaman taking the spirit/material path and dealing with a number of elementals as a result.
One of our behind-the-scenes goals with codifying four traditions of magic was to fight the way spellcaster lists grew more and more complex in 1st edition, so that whenever we listed a new spell near the end we had to make sure it fit well with an increasingly large number of different types of spellcasters, many of whom had identical spells showing up at different levels. Look at how in Planar Adventures, for example, we needed four pages of content to cover the spell lists for only eight pages of spells; had we a more streamlined and simpler system of categorizing spell lists, we could have easily had only ONE page of spell lists and 3 additional pages for new spells in that section!
So, while we certainly could add more magic traditions, I don't think that's part of the plan. We'll see where things go, of course, but we've done a LOT of behind-the-scenes thinking and work on making sure these four traditions will work for ALL of the potential new classes and stuff we want to do going forward with 2nd edition.
Thanks very much for taking the time to respond! I really appreciate the time and dedication that went into the making of the new edition! I was mostly curious because the dual combos created each of the initial four traditions (which are all very nice) but it left two more possibilities that weren't included and I wasn't sure why. I really look forward to what's coming up next!
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The main thing to me is the tradition should make coherent sense in actual specific class concept or theme. If that doesn't exist, then arbitrary combinations shouldn't be done. But conversely, if coherent theme works with those Essence combos, that could be viable. I actually started this post not able to imagine theme for those combos, but I somehow came around to seeing certain potentials which might give basis for consideration:
Mind and Vital (Life)
Could be good match for Mesmerist, specializing in sentient living beings but no reason to dabble in nonsentient Matter or mattes of Spirit which reach beyond direct sentience into Soul essence. It is inherently focused concept, and this would distinguish it from Enchanters/Illusionists and Psychics and other Occult casters.
Spirit and Matter
Could be valid direction for Occultist and Medium, wrangling Spirits and exerting that magical energy in Material ways, less inclined to manipulate the Mind or Vital Essence of other consciousnesses. Independently of Essence topic, I already tended to see Medium and Occultist closely related to Shaman. Although not strictly needing to share base list, that might just work for Shamans too, with Spirit distinguishing Shaman from Druids like how 1E pulled them towards Witch/Cleric. Spirits seem inclined to poach other Lists/Essences anyways, so starting from these Essences as base list seems no worse than anything else.
That does imply divergence between the 1E Occult classes, but I actually think that could be healthy. New traditions or Essence combos would raise the issue of new related Skill, although I think if something like the 2 above examples were done, they could be subsumed within Occult skill even while accessing different base Essences (which isn't inherently different than Sorcerors or Clerics accessing off-list spells and treating them as their own Tradition).
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You can do psychic classes with any list. Psychic casting was always more about components than spell list, and those can still easily change.
Individual Classes or class paths can also add spells to a list, like I could easily see Psychic as an Occult caster that also gets to add some telekinesis/Force spells to the list.
Mind and Vital (Life)
Could be good match for Mesmerist, specializing in sentient living beings but no reason to dabble in nonsentient Matter or mattes of Spirit which reach beyond direct sentience into Soul essence. It is inherently focused concept, and this would distinguish it from Enchanters/Illusionists and Psychics and other Occult casters.Spirit and Matter
Could be valid direction for Occultist and Medium, wrangling Spirits and exerting that magical energy in Material ways, less inclined to manipulate the Mind or Vital Essence of other consciousnesses. Independently of Essence topic, I already tended to see Medium and Occultist closely related to Shaman. Although not strictly needing to share base list, that might just work for Shamans too, with Spirit distinguishing Shaman from Druids like how 1E pulled them towards Witch/Cleric. Spirits seem inclined to poach other Lists/Essences anyways, so starting from these Essences as base list seems no worse than anything else.
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One thing this got me thinking on, was that Kineticist (while lacking overt spells) actually is clearly within scope of Primal (Material/Vital) Essences. Looking at Sorceror Elemental Bloodlines (using Primal list) reinforces that. So I think viewing Kineticists as at least tangentially related to Druidic Primal magic is very compelling. Paizo even did one Kineticist Archetype in 1E that was tied to Osirioni desert, which is obviously very landscape/terrain specific treatment of Kineticist... So I can see that approach applied to other terrains, which even further establishes them within Druidic/Primal milieu.From this perspective, Shifters could even be seen as actually close to Kineticists: Both non-casting yet inherently channeling Material/Vital Essence, just with internal-vital "Wilding" focus. So some hybrid between Shifters and Kineticists seems more than plausible, likewise heavy Animal Companion focus could be external-vital-"Wild" focus.
My question then, is where would Druidic Neutral Champion fit into this? IMHO, mechanical overlap with Kineticist and Shifter or Hunter is very plausible, with main thematic difference being Druidic Anathema VS those who just "have" the power and can use it for or against Druidic ethos. At least at conceptual level, of course if they exist as distinct classes, they could have other mechanic nuances as well, but that doesn't mean the particular abilities could in fact overlap alot, so Elemental focus Druidic Champion could play similar to Kineticist in some ways.
Essence talk is interesting way to approach Druidic view of Elementals, including Positive and Negative planes (Vital), a balance of all of them important to that subtle web of "Nature", yet any one of them antithetical to conventional life.
A relevant quote from an older, similar thread
I did ask Mark on an early playtest thread if they were going to "fill the grid" for the other two combinations of essences. He said "no", but I don't recall if it was just for the playtest or for longer than that. This maybe PF2, but it is still Pathfinder, so I would be surprised if by 2 years in, the grid hadn't been filled at least once.This was actually something that came to us first from the world team, specifically mostly from discussions with James Jacobs along with some with Mark Moreland, so we grabbed the essences and lists that made sense for what they were looking for in terms of explaining the metaphysics of magic. As per those discussions, they weren't looking at combining opposing essences with orthogonal metaphysics into traditions, and we have no plans to do that either, but no plans doesn't mean never. I guess if something brand new came into being that juxtaposed two incompatible concepts in one, it's always possible. And if that does happen, it's added a new story we can only tell thanks to the richer lore of the essences (that said, I'm a big essence/tradition fan and the one who started asking weird questions after we had the essences and traditions like "Could we have the sorcerer vary traditions based on bloodline?" and "Isn't the bard actually occult based on this framework?" so I'm biased).
Spirit and Matter
Could be valid direction for Occultist and Medium, wrangling Spirits and exerting that magical energy in Material ways, less inclined to manipulate the Mind or Vital Essence of other consciousnesses. Independently of Essence topic, I already tended to see Medium and Occultist closely related to Shaman. Although not strictly needing to share base list, that might just work for Shamans too, with Spirit distinguishing Shaman from Druids like how 1E pulled them towards Witch/Cleric. Spirits seem inclined to poach other Lists/Essences anyways, so starting from these Essences as base list seems no worse than anything else.
I would have said this would be the Summoner's niche, as they could summon both outsiders and elementals, but with the way the various Summon spells have been reworked, merely tapping a couple of those options instead of ALL of them seems far too limited for the class. Now I'm curious how tha class will translate. Edit: Also, where's the Summon Monitor spell?
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Also, where's the Summon Monitor spell?
Waiting for more than a handful of eligible items is my guess. Also probably needs more complicated alignment rules than Summon Celestial/Fiend.
Also, where's the Summon Monitor spell?Waiting for more than a handful of eligible items is my guess. Also probably needs more complicated alignment rules than Summon Celestial/Fiend.
If the Gamemastery Guide has rules for creating monsters, you'll be able to have all the monitors, and every other type of monster, you can stand. Edit: And after double checking the Beastiary, there's actually more eligible Monitors than Contructs, since the spell will only summon Common monsters.
Certianly fewer monitors than fiends or celestials though.
Honestly I kind of wish they'd gone the starfinder route with he various Summon spells, but I can see why that would have problematic given page space issues.