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PF2's Bard is insanely awesome thanks in part to how the new math and crit system work out. Your +1 Inspire Courage is equivalent to handing out Improved Crit to your party since every +1 counts. If you look at any of the items or buffs in the book you'll notice how low they are due to a lot of the power coming from the players and not the items/spells in this system. The fact that you can do this as one action all day, every day, and still throw out spells or swing your sword is a pretty big deal. Not only that but the Occult list has some of the best control spells and if you're a Polymath Muse you can take two feats essentially make whatever spell you want a Signature Spell if you have it in your spell book.
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I'm a big fan of that Inspired Defense composition. +1 AC as an AOE buff is nice on its own, as is +1 saves but the real selling point to me is resistance to physical damage. Not sure how it works in actual play yet, but it looks promising.
As for the use of the compositions overall, they are better than most cantrips but the big thing is that they are 1 action spells. I would think of them less as a mandatory every round trick and more as a way of rounding out turns, squeezing out that last action after casting a spell or getting past 2 attacks. Might not be used every round, but it will be useful a lot of the time.
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Is there some other gem in the Bard's abilities?
Besides 10th level casting? Because I'd say that's worth about as much as all their other features put together, if not more.
I also love the enigma options for knowing a lot. Not really into loremaster's etude, but Bardic Lore, Know it All and True Hypercognition are pretty cool. Though I also like the charming book nerd bard.
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Okay, here's an idea. If this doesn't sell you on a Bard, I don't know what will.
Be a human, with Versatile Heritage so that you can get a general feat at level 1.
As a bard, take the enigma muse so that you can get trained in Bardic Lore.
Then, use the general feat you got from your ancestry to get the Dubious Knowledge feat.
You now have the right answer to any question that might ever come up. It's just that, you know, sometimes it's hard to remember if werewolves are vulnerable to silver or strawberry pudding. Could happen to anyone.
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Okay, here's an idea. If this doesn't sell you on a Bard, I don't know what will.
Be a human, with Versatile Heritage so that you can get a general feat at level 1.
As a bard, take the enigma muse so that you can get trained in Bardic Lore.
Then, use the general feat you got from your ancestry to get the Dubious Knowledge feat.
You now have the right answer to any question that might ever come up. It's just that, you know, sometimes it's hard to remember if werewolves are vulnerable to silver or strawberry pudding. Could happen to anyone.
You can also be a hermit with any ancestry and get free dubious knowledge.
And it's funnier with Know It all. You get 2 pieces of info on success or failure so you don't even know if you got the bad info or not.
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Inspire Courage becomes way better when you realize that you aren't just giving the whole party +1 to hit, you are giving the whole party +1 to hit and keen weapons. Plus, it's totally at-will. You can do it all day every day.
Then you have Counter Performance, which has gone from "why would I ever drop Inspire Courage for this?" in PF1e to "wait, it works against that too?" in PF2e. And you don't even have to stop Inspire Courage-ing to do it.
And then you have the awesome higher level songs, like Allegro. At-will you can spend an action to give someone else an extra action. You could even do it three times in one turn if you want - give up your turn to give the rest of your party extra actions. That could be clutch as heck.
And then on top of all of that you are a full caster.
Bards are awesome in 2e.
Inspire Courage becomes way better when you realize that you aren't just giving the whole party +1 to hit, you are giving the whole party +1 to hit and keen weapons. Plus, it's totally at-will. You can do it all day every day.
Then you have Counter Performance, which has gone from "why would I ever drop Inspire Courage for this?" in PF1e to "wait, it works against that too?" in PF2e. And you don't even have to stop Inspire Courage-ing to do it.
And then you have the awesome higher level songs, like Allegro. At-will you can spend an action to give someone else an extra action. You could even do it three times in one turn if you want - give up your turn to give the rest of your party extra actions. That could be clutch as heck.
And then on top of all of that you are a full caster.
Bards are awesome in 2e.
You can’t do 2+ compositions in one round without Harmonize, which has an action cost, or Symphony of the Muse at 20.
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A nice note for occult/divine casters - while Incapacitation traits take away your crit fail options for spells that are low level, Sound Burst does not have the Incapacitation trait and has as a crit fail result...1 minute stun. Have a party of occult/divine casters just spam this from low level slots until the BBEG gets unlucky.
Enjoy it until they FAQ it down to Stun 1 or Stun 2.
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You can’t do 2+ compositions in one round without Harmonize, which has an action cost, or Symphony of the Muse at 20.Inspire Courage becomes way better when you realize that you aren't just giving the whole party +1 to hit, you are giving the whole party +1 to hit and keen weapons. Plus, it's totally at-will. You can do it all day every day.
Then you have Counter Performance, which has gone from "why would I ever drop Inspire Courage for this?" in PF1e to "wait, it works against that too?" in PF2e. And you don't even have to stop Inspire Courage-ing to do it.
And then you have the awesome higher level songs, like Allegro. At-will you can spend an action to give someone else an extra action. You could even do it three times in one turn if you want - give up your turn to give the rest of your party extra actions. That could be clutch as heck.
And then on top of all of that you are a full caster.
Bards are awesome in 2e.
You know, I feel like you are right, but I can't for the life of me find where it says that; nothing in the Composition Spells section mentions that limitation.
In any case, I don't think Counter Performance counts either way, since it's a Reaction; Harmonize says you normally can't cast another Composition in the same "turn", not round.
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If you click the composition trait AoN directs you to pg 629 which saysYou can’t do 2+ compositions in one round without Harmonize, which has an action cost, or Symphony of the Muse at 20.Inspire Courage becomes way better when you realize that you aren't just giving the whole party +1 to hit, you are giving the whole party +1 to hit and keen weapons. Plus, it's totally at-will. You can do it all day every day.
Then you have Counter Performance, which has gone from "why would I ever drop Inspire Courage for this?" in PF1e to "wait, it works against that too?" in PF2e. And you don't even have to stop Inspire Courage-ing to do it.
And then you have the awesome higher level songs, like Allegro. At-will you can spend an action to give someone else an extra action. You could even do it three times in one turn if you want - give up your turn to give the rest of your party extra actions. That could be clutch as heck.
And then on top of all of that you are a full caster.
Bards are awesome in 2e.
You know, I feel like you are right, but I can't for the life of me find where it says that; nothing in the Composition Spells section mentions that limitation.
In any case, I don't think Counter Performance counts either way, since it's a Reaction; Harmonize says you normally can't cast another Composition in the same "turn", not round.
To cast a composition cantrip or focus spell, you usually use a type of Performance. If the spell includes a verbal component, you must use an auditory performance, and if it includes a somatic component, you must use a visual one. The spell gains all the traits of the performance you used. You can cast only one composition spell each turn, and you can have only one active at a time. If you cast a new composition spell, any ongoing effects from your previous composition spell end immediately.
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Ugh, buried in the traits section. That's right, it's in that little cut out in the CRB isn't it?
Well, I think my original point still stands - losing Inspire Courage's benefits for part of one round in order to Counter Performance is still worlds better than the action economy you needed in 1e to do the same thing.
If you click the composition trait AoN directs you to pg 629 which saysYou know, I feel like you are right, but I can't for the life of me find where it says that; nothing in the Composition Spells section mentions that limitation.
In any case, I don't think Counter Performance counts either way, since it's a Reaction; Harmonize says you normally can't cast another Composition in the same "turn", not round.
To cast a composition cantrip or focus spell, you usually use a type of Performance. If the spell includes a verbal component, you must use an auditory performance, and if it includes a somatic component, you must use a visual one. The spell gains all the traits of the performance you used. You can cast only one composition spell each turn, and you can have only one active at a time. If you cast a new composition spell, any ongoing effects from your previous composition spell end immediately.
Right, so unfortunately Counterperformance does cancel any existing composition that isn't subject to Harmonize. Annoying for allies who come in the initiative order between the countered effect and your next turn to renew the canceled composition.
It also means that Harmonize has to be your first action, followed by your harmonized composition, followed by a regular composition (which can be subject to Lingering Composition, if you want) if you want to get two compositions active in the same round prior to level 20.
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If you click the composition trait AoN directs you to pg 629 which saysYou know, I feel like you are right, but I can't for the life of me find where it says that; nothing in the Composition Spells section mentions that limitation.
In any case, I don't think Counter Performance counts either way, since it's a Reaction; Harmonize says you normally can't cast another Composition in the same "turn", not round.
To cast a composition cantrip or focus spell, you usually use a type of Performance. If the spell includes a verbal component, you must use an auditory performance, and if it includes a somatic component, you must use a visual one. The spell gains all the traits of the performance you used. You can cast only one composition spell each turn, and you can have only one active at a time. If you cast a new composition spell, any ongoing effects from your previous composition spell end immediately.Right, so unfortunately Counterperformance does cancel any existing composition that isn't subject to Harmonize. Annoying for allies who come in the initiative order between the countered effect and your next turn to renew the canceled composition.
It also means that Harmonize has to be your first action, followed by your harmonized composition, followed by a regular composition (which can be subject to Lingering Composition, if you want) if you want to get two compositions active in the same round prior to level 20.
Summoning and Sustaining a Satyr with Summon Fey can get Inspire Courage or Triple Time and another composition each round before 20.
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I don't think this undercuts the value of Counter Performance all that much. +1/+1 to attack and damage is great, but if you popped Counter Performance on something then that failed save was going to have a very nasty effect. Like, yeah, I'll take doing less damage this turn if it means I don't get stunned by Sound Burst for the next minute.
I've just recieved my books (oh joy) and I'm sorry to hear this, OP. The Bard looks incredibly powerful. The only problem is too many options (one of those good problems). A Maestro need never cast a proper spell, so many Focus spells and cantrips! Definitely my first character.
Yeah, maestro is the right way to go if you have a party that can benefit from your buffs, so many options that you can use to sustain all day and support some melee/ranged combat or the occasional spell. The enigma seems like it's designed for multiclassing in Wizard (not too many useful muse feats, incentive to boost Int for your knowledge stuff, late feat to expand your spell repretoire), and the polymath is a second rate rogue on the skill front who also is a quasi-occult wizard with several flexible daily preparation options but without the extra spells. The polymath is my favorite, but you need to invest in a decent weapon and plan to be doing plenty of unenhanced Inspire Courage when the spells run out.
I've just recieved my books (oh joy) and I'm sorry to hear this, OP. The Bard looks incredibly powerful. The only problem is too many options (one of those good problems). A Maestro need never cast a proper spell, so many Focus spells and cantrips! Definitely my first character.keep in mind that the only way you can sustain Focus spells is by using just 1 per encounter.
you need like level 14 to be able to sustain 2 per encounter
Yeah, this limitation makes Inspire Heroics easier to skip and not worry about as an Enigma or Polymath primary muse. Maybe just dip into the first cross-muse feat to get Lingering Composition and an extra Focus for a 1/day surge when you need it. Set up and forget Inspire Courage on your first turn each fight, have a point in reserve if you need Counterperformance, do your normal fighting and spellcasting for the rest of the fight.
Gnome Bards can take Animal Accomplice to recharge focus mid-fight for an action, if you want all in on focus powers.
Oh, the Polymath muse is also one of the best demoralizers in the game. Not only can you get an item bonus but also a +1/2 from Virtuostic Performer skill feat. Matches the same circumstance bonus available from Intimidating Prowess skill feat without needing a 16/20 Strength and applies to a lot more things.
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I think bards are pretty bad in this edition TBH. They can't realistically be fighting types, as at best they're getting Expert rank in weapons. And while their casting can be helpful, I think, by and large, casting their cantrips is wasted action economy. You have to do it every round, and the bonuses it grants don't stack with other buff spells your party may have. Honestly, a war cleric casting bless once (or heroism before a battle) is probably going to be better than the bard.
This is pretty clearly wrong.
Inspire Courage: 1 round duration, 60' emanation, almost certainly effects everyone in your party and their friends. +1 to attacks, damage, and fear saves. Useable all day, no opportunity cost in spells. Doesn't force the Bard into melee range or to move to make it effective.
Bless: 1 minute duration, 5' emanation, very slowly increasable as long as you spend the same actions to increase it as a bard does to maintain his duration. Costs a spell slot, so useable only 1-3 combats per day, has an opportunity cost in other spells you could have been preparing and casting, forces you into melee range and to use extra actions if you realistically expect to help more than yourself and one ally. Doesn't give the fear save or damage boosts.
Heroism: Single target, 10 minutes, +1 to attacks, saves, perception, and skills. More diverse bonuses, but costs a 3rd level spell(!) and can't buff the whole party. Huge cost, all you're saving is action economy.
And action economy isn't that important to the bard. Third attacks are not helpful unless you're a martial class with feats that reduce MAP or enhance action economy, so spending an action to buff the entire party is a good use of an action.
If it's really a problem, a maestro bard (or other muse who spends a feat to acquire it) can use Lingering Performance at the beginning of every fight (assuming 10 minute rests between) to make Inspiring Courage last 3-4 rounds. One action, lasts most of the fight, no resource cost except the replenishable Focus.
You're not a maestro? Well the polymath is the top demoralizer in the game, open every round with a demoralize and have a good chance of debuffing a target -1 and occasionally -2 to everything for a round.
You're neither? Well I don't love enigma, but monster knowledge checks are actually more important than before. Lots of new/changed monsters hurts PC metagaming knowledge, and they cleaned up the rules so that the GM is more constrained/directed in what information he provides. It's really hard to get more than one piece of information on a monster and you dont' get to ask for what you want anymore. The enigma has some options to make that restriction less relevant and get back to "I know everything important" and keep the party attacking optimally.
And you can attack, you're not as good as a martial, certainly, but you've got rogue weapons and your Inspire Courage to close the proficiency gap. (You're basically the same as the Warpriest unless you can't max your light armor dex for some improbable reason or the Warpriest has a very strong deity weapon). Plus you have the hidden damage contribution of the 10% increase per attack in hits/crits you provide to the whole party.
That's not even getting into the other maestro options, like Inspire Competence for a good chance at boosting an ally's combat maneuver or other skill (at 15th level you're pretty much guaranteed a +4), Inspire Defense for a constant bonus to AC, saves, and some physical damage resistance, spammable Haste via the Allegro cantrip, and of course a burst ability to Inspire Heroics to give the entire party +2/3 to attacks and damage for the entire round if you need everyone to go all out.
Enigma muses are weaker on the extra options, I'll admit, and would benefit from multiclassing or taking some Maestro feats. Polymaths would also benefit from at least Lingering Performance, but can serve as a occult quasi-wizard with flexible spells and skill support beyond the combat benefits of demoralize.
Finally, Counterperformance is a very important defensive ability, there are a lot of nasty spells and monster abilities (gaze attacks, sonic screams, etc.) that it can nullify.
The bard is great. The 20th level Maestro bard is busted.
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My main gripe with the PF2 Bard is that they are too good at spellcasting. Or more precisely that the MC Bard dedication only gets you Inspire Courage at level 8.
So, if I want to Inspire Courage before that, I need to be a master of Occult spellcasting :-(
I even homebrewed a Class Archetype as a workaround against this pigeonholing.
I wonder how many other low level class features are similarly glued to a package you might not want for your concept.
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I was pretty peeved by that too; the occult spell list is not what I want when I'm trying to multiclass into Bard, Inspire Courage is the key.
The druid's orders actually has a very similar design to the bard's muses.
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I think bards are pretty bad in this edition TBH. They can't realistically be fighting types, as at best they're getting Expert rank in weapons....
...Bards used to be reasonably effective across the board, and they could choose to focus to be good at something in particular.
Xenocrat already covered the casting stuff, but I wanted to point out this doesn't make much sense either. You seem to be implying the PF1 Bard made a better fighting type. But the PF2 Bard getting expert is only 4 points behind the fighter at 20th level, where the PF1 Bard was going to be guaranteed 10 points behind the fighter by that point, probably more. (+5 BAB, +5 Weapon Focus, and then you probably had Greater Weapon Focus to boot...)
Even if you double the value of each +1 to account for crit, the PF2 bard is still closer in accuracy to the fighter than PF1. And when you compare him to the ranger, champion, or barbarian he does even better.
Plus, both versions of the bards can buff themselves just as well as their party members. Be selfish with your buffs and you'll close that gap even more.
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Okay, here's an idea. If this doesn't sell you on a Bard, I don't know what will.
Be a human, with Versatile Heritage so that you can get a general feat at level 1.
As a bard, take the enigma muse so that you can get trained in Bardic Lore.
Then, use the general feat you got from your ancestry to get the Dubious Knowledge feat.
You now have the right answer to any question that might ever come up. It's just that, you know, sometimes it's hard to remember if werewolves are vulnerable to silver or strawberry pudding. Could happen to anyone.
I am playing just this bard now. It's hella fun, and also useful.
And also fun for the GM.
I think Dirge of Doom is the best composition cantrip if your opponents can be affected by mental effects. Frightened 1 hits both offense and defense, and the kicker that enemies can't lose it then leaves them frightened for 2 turns if you can get the positioning right. In the second turn of frightened, you can then use a different cantrip in order to effectively stack the bonuses.
Hypercognition at spell level 3 and Synesthesia at spell level 5 are also pretty character defining spell. Synesthesia is just the best debuff in the game. Hypercognition lets a knowledge focused Bard identify every enemy in a combat in 1 action.
I think Dirge of Doom is the best composition cantrip if your opponents can be affected by mental effects.
It's super good - my campaign has a dirge of doom bard, and there are basically two cases where it's not the go-to: opponents that are immune to mental (as you pointed out) and situations where the 30' emanation just isn't big enough; inspire courage and its 60' emanation is an easy swap, though.
A lesser situation where it's less optimal is if there are any other debuffs that cause status penalties that won't stack with frightened - things like clumsy, enfeebled, etc. They tend to not hit big groups, but other debuffers in the party have to take it into consideration.
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Not sure what to say here. Bards are pretty much pure awesome, and arguably completely break the game. Inspire courage distorts the math THAT much, especially once you get Inspire Heroism - on top of the fact that they can be one of the best vehicles for putting Frightened on enemies around. A 4 point offensive, 2 point defensive accuracy swing in 3 actions (inspire, fear) can make a tough fight trivial instantly.
In addition to that, they've got access to an incredibly versatile spell list that has utility, support, crippling offensive debunks, AND decent damage.
They're the whole package, and just like all spellcasters this edition, a weapon Strike is a perfectly valid expenditure of one action if you have it available.
In addition to all that, there's some surprisingly good utility from their other abilities. Their counter performance stuff won't come up every encounter, but when it does its clutch.
I don't even hesitate when I say they're probably the best class in PF2E. Full stop.
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I like the new bard for what it is: a spellcasting class that can also buff the entire party at the same time. I dislike the bard for what it isn't anymore: A class that can hang in there with some of the fighting types while also doing a bit of spellcasting and being good at a variety of skills.
I don't think the new bard is a bad class, but it should be viewed similar to "enchanter" in a lot of other games, and not be viewed through the lens of what it was/is in other editions. Something was lost, and I miss it, but I don't poo-poo the 2e bard either.
Yeah, if you want to play that old-style of Bard, you probably want to put a Bard multiclass dedication on top something like a Rogue or maybe a Swashbuckler. Who knows, maybe there will be some Archetypes in the APG that help with that sort of build, too...
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Yeah, if you want to play that old-style of Bard, you probably want to put a Bard multiclass dedication on top something like a Rogue or maybe a Swashbuckler. Who knows, maybe there will be some Archetypes in the APG that help with that sort of build, too...I like the new bard for what it is: a spellcasting class that can also buff the entire party at the same time. I dislike the bard for what it isn't anymore: A class that can hang in there with some of the fighting types while also doing a bit of spellcasting and being good at a variety of skills.
I don't think the new bard is a bad class, but it should be viewed similar to "enchanter" in a lot of other games, and not be viewed through the lens of what it was/is in other editions. Something was lost, and I miss it, but I don't poo-poo the 2e bard either.
Yep, that is how I would see it. I have found it most helpful in this new edition to focus on the goal, so, if it is a fighter who can do a bit of spellcasting, in others words, a fighter (or another class that is a decent fighter depending on style of fighting imagined for character). Given the goal, I would start with fighter-type and then multiclass. Just as First World Bard mentioned. The key is focusing on the goal, then determining your class, as opposed to focusing on the class, and then determining your goal.
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I like the new bard for what it is: a spellcasting class that can also buff the entire party at the same time. I dislike the bard for what it isn't anymore: A class that can hang in there with some of the fighting types while also doing a bit of spellcasting and being good at a variety of skills.
I don't think the new bard is a bad class, but it should be viewed similar to "enchanter" in a lot of other games, and not be viewed through the lens of what it was/is in other editions. Something was lost, and I miss it, but I don't poo-poo the 2e bard either.
Yeah, you said that 9 months ago and it didn't make any sense then, and it doesn't make any sense now. PF2 bards are closer in accuracy to PF2 martials than PF1 bards were to PF1 martials. And multiclassing is now a viable option for casters unlike PF1. Go Champion and you can get heavy armor proficiency without worrying about arcane spell failure, plus some other sweet defensive boons like Lay on Hands.
As for skills, the bard gets more skills trained than anyone but the rogue (and probably the Investigator in a few months) and have a variety of muses and class feats to further buff those skills. Versatile Performance alone lets you effectively get the benefits of 3 legendary skills at the price of 1.
They are better at "hanging in there with some of the fighting types" and are still plenty good at a variety of skills.
I feel like "I miss 3/4 BAB, 2/3 casting classes from PF1" is just a thing people are going to have to get over until they start reintroducing "midpoint" options between "full casting" and "full martial."
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I feel like "I miss 3/4 BAB, 2/3 casting classes from PF1" is just a thing people are going to have to get over until they start reintroducing "midpoint" options between "full casting" and "full martial."Agreed in general, though I feel like "martial with most of my feats in a spellcasting archetype" *somewhat* approximates that, it definitely still feels more like a martial in that case.
There's plenty of PF2 characters you can build who are "effective martials with a useful amount of spellcasting" or "effective spellcasters with a useful amount of martial acumen" but the archetype multiclassing system does sort of push you towards one extreme or the other.
A character that actually tries to split the difference is probably going to need to be a new class.
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The two people above you seem to disagree with you... And given the new bounded accuracy, what you're saying isn't really true. Sure, a bard is only 3 less to hit than a ranger, and 5 than a fighter, but that's also true for a wizard... Bards are no better martials than any of the pure caster classes in this edition.
They have a solid martial one-handed weapon selection, which matters, and is significantly better than Wizard weapon options. Or most other casters (only some Clerics and people who take Ancestry weapon options really get martial weapons otherwise).
Also, the right build can improve that accuracy a few ways, and can wind up very much on par with a non-Fighter martial in to-hit (the easiest example is Dirge of Doom + Rogue Multiclass for Dread Striker).
Yes, I said this 9 months ago. Nothing's changed... It's possible that the APG adds a subclass for bards that focuses on the martial aspects (skald or the like), but for now, what I said remains true.
I prefer a more martial focus on Bard myself, and would welcome additional options in this regard, but don't undersell those they currently possess. They've got some good stuff, there.
I like the new bard for what it is: a spellcasting class that can also buff the entire party at the same time. I dislike the bard for what it isn't anymore: A class that can hang in there with some of the fighting types while also doing a bit of spellcasting and being good at a variety of skills.
I don't think the new bard is a bad class, but it should be viewed similar to "enchanter" in a lot of other games, and not be viewed through the lens of what it was/is in other editions. Something was lost, and I miss it, but I don't poo-poo the 2e bard either.
Yeah, you said that 9 months ago and it didn't make any sense then, and it doesn't make any sense now. PF2 bards are closer in accuracy to PF2 martials than PF1 bards were to PF1 martials. And multiclassing is now a viable option for casters unlike PF1. Go Champion and you can get heavy armor proficiency without worrying about arcane spell failure, plus some other sweet defensive boons like Lay on Hands.
As for skills, the bard gets more skills trained than anyone but the rogue (and probably the Investigator in a few months) and have a variety of muses and class feats to further buff those skills. Versatile Performance alone lets you effectively get the benefits of 3 legendary skills at the price of 1.
They are better at "hanging in there with some of the fighting types" and are still plenty good at a variety of skills.
The two people above you seem to disagree with you... And given the new bounded accuracy, what you're saying isn't really true. Sure, a bard is only 3 less to hit than a ranger, and 5 than a fighter, but that's also true for a wizard... Bards are no better martials than any of the pure caster classes in this edition.
Yes, I said this 9 months ago. Nothing's changed... It's possible that the APG adds a subclass for bards that focuses on the martial aspects (skald or the like), but for now, what I said remains true.
Except the bard does get better proficiencies than say wizard and sorcerer. That said, I think you do have a point with the tighter math at the moment that the decrease in accuracy makes a bigger difference. Of course, that will likely change a bit over time, but that's an entirely different issue.
I think that tthe bard is likely to have a bigger issue with bulk than anything unless they really plan for it from the start. They can of course pump Str, but that's then likely to be at the expense of dex which makes all those skills a little less effective too.
Honestly though, I don't see this as a huge problem. The fact that there are things that any given bard can't do well isn't a problem. That's the way it should be. Same for every other class. A class should have its strengths and its weaknesses. The "knock" in my opinion, with bards is that a lot of what they do really focuses around buffing and debuffing, which while quite effective, isn't always the most entertaining style of play for a player. But then I've got a player I've played with for 20 years now and he's never played any kind of caster, so there's always certain aspects of any class that won't appeal to some people.
To me, the trick to enjoying the bard, as mentioned by others, is to figure out what your goal is and then build toward that goal. Knowing your goal will point you to the proper class selections.
Not sure what to say here. Bards are pretty much pure awesome, and arguably completely break the game. Inspire courage distorts the math THAT much, especially once you get Inspire Heroism - on top of the fact that they can be one of the best vehicles for putting Frightened on enemies around. A 4 point offensive, 2 point defensive accuracy swing in 3 actions (inspire, fear) can make a tough fight trivial instantly.
Well, for a 4 point offensive and 2 point defensive (which comes from where? It should only be one point defensive), you'll need to be level 10 and critically succeed at a hard Performance check. Also, it's one round only if you don't want to start losing Focus Points (2 at level 12).
So, I won't argue on the fact that a critical success on an Inspire Heroics + Inspire Courage is crazy good, but it's not that common. It's a bit like speaking about how good a Pick build is and only consider critical damage.Also, as a side note, I think Bard is the worst spellcaster gish. Gishes have a big action economy issue, as they need to attack, move (if they are melee gishes) and cast spells. If you add compositions to the mix, it becomes an unsolvable nightmare as you'll need 4 to 5 actions per round to be fully efficient.
Not sure what to say here. Bards are pretty much pure awesome, and arguably completely break the game. Inspire courage distorts the math THAT much, especially once you get Inspire Heroism - on top of the fact that they can be one of the best vehicles for putting Frightened on enemies around. A 4 point offensive, 2 point defensive accuracy swing in 3 actions (inspire, fear) can make a tough fight trivial instantly.Well, for a 4 point offensive and 2 point defensive (which comes from where? It should only be one point defensive), you'll need to be level 10 and critically succeed at a hard Performance check. Also, it's one round only if you don't want to start losing Focus Points (2 at level 12).
So, I won't argue on the fact that a critical success on an Inspire Heroics + Inspire Courage is crazy good, but it's not that common. It's a bit like speaking about how good a Pick build is and only consider critical damage.Also, as a side note, I think Bard is the worst spellcaster gish. Gishes have a big action economy issue, as they need to attack, move (if they are melee gishes) and cast spells. If you add compositions to the mix, it becomes an unsolvable nightmare as you'll need 4 to 5 actions per round to be fully efficient.
4 point offensive swing is +2 to hit, -2 ac from frightened from a spell. Critical successes are even crazier, but not worth worrying about. The "defensive" portion of that is that the frightened also is a to hit penalty...
Success rate on Inspire Heroics is pretty good if you're legendary and have a good item - and worth blowing a hero point on. The focus point cost of keeping it going is offset by additional focus point recovery granted by feats.
Frightened 2 is unreliable against some targets (because spells) until you get Scare to Death, which i believe you can run off of your legendary Performance.
4 point offensive swing is +2 to hit, -2 ac from frightened from a spell. Critical successes are even crazier, but not worth worrying about. The "defensive" portion of that is that the frightened also is a to hit penalty...
Success rate on Inspire Heroics is pretty good if you're legendary and have a good item - and worth blowing a hero point on. The focus point cost of keeping it going is offset by additional focus point recovery granted by feats.
Frightened 2 is unreliable against some targets (because spells) until you get Scare to Death, which i believe you can run off of your legendary Performance.
Ok, I get it (I thought the last point was just Demoralize or Dirge of Doom). Yes, clearly, it's a lot. But I don't think Bard is overpowered. In my opinion, these bonuses (especially the status bonus) shouldn't be limited to the Bard. I hope they'll add more buff spells to the Divine spell list, which was a great buffing list in PF1 and is nowhere close now.
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The Bard can fight!
The key to unlocking this is Ability Scores and Ancestry / General Feats as well as Spell Selection.
Prioritize ST, DX, and CON with your Ancestry, Background, and Free boosts. You can end up looking something like 16/14/14 in physical stats. Use that "16" as your attacking stat. Then pick up proficiency with some additional weapons and/or armor, as needed, using Ancestry and General feats. And/or, consider using a Multiclass Archetype like Barbarian, Champion, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, or Rogue. Pick spells that support your teammates and solve problems over those that offer saving throws, attacks rolls, or counteract checks.
Finally, give the APG a look when it comes out. I am confident that there will be something that supports a variety of "Fighting Bard" concepts.
Ok, I get it (I thought the last point was just Demoralize or Dirge of Doom). Yes, clearly, it's a lot. But I don't think Bard is overpowered. In my opinion, these bonuses (especially the status bonus) shouldn't be limited to the Bard. I hope they'll add more buff spells to the Divine spell list, which was a great buffing list in PF1 and is nowhere close now.4 point offensive swing is +2 to hit, -2 ac from frightened from a spell. Critical successes are even crazier, but not worth worrying about. The "defensive" portion of that is that the frightened also is a to hit penalty...
Success rate on Inspire Heroics is pretty good if you're legendary and have a good item - and worth blowing a hero point on. The focus point cost of keeping it going is offset by additional focus point recovery granted by feats.
Frightened 2 is unreliable against some targets (because spells) until you get Scare to Death, which i believe you can run off of your legendary Performance.
I mean, I do think bards are off the top of the curve, but no one really hates on overpowered support. Not too much at least...
I'm playing in my first game (mostly GMing) as a Cleric, alongside one of my players who runs a bard in one of my campaign. You should hear the disappointment in his voice every time I cast bless and he asks, "So its just +1 to hit? Not damage? And only so close to you?"
Divine spells aren't actually bad... but Inspire Courage is just that good.
Ok, I get it (I thought the last point was just Demoralize or Dirge of Doom). Yes, clearly, it's a lot. But I don't think Bard is overpowered. In my opinion, these bonuses (especially the status bonus) shouldn't be limited to the Bard. I hope they'll add more buff spells to the Divine spell list, which was a great buffing list in PF1 and is nowhere close now.4 point offensive swing is +2 to hit, -2 ac from frightened from a spell. Critical successes are even crazier, but not worth worrying about. The "defensive" portion of that is that the frightened also is a to hit penalty...
Success rate on Inspire Heroics is pretty good if you're legendary and have a good item - and worth blowing a hero point on. The focus point cost of keeping it going is offset by additional focus point recovery granted by feats.
Frightened 2 is unreliable against some targets (because spells) until you get Scare to Death, which i believe you can run off of your legendary Performance.
I mean, I do think bards are off the top of the curve, but no one really hates on overpowered support. Not too much at least...
I'm playing in my first game (mostly GMing) as a Cleric, alongside one of my players who runs a bard in one of my campaign. You should hear the disappointment in his voice every time I cast bless and he asks, "So its just +1 to hit? Not damage? And only so close to you?"
Divine spells aren't actually bad... but Inspire Courage is just that good.
What I don't understand is why Circle of Protection is Uncommon while Divine Aura isn't. Divine Aura is just the higher level version of it. Anyway, a few months to see what the APG will bring for divine casters (my main PFS character is an Angelic Sorcerer).