Bonus / Extra Damage & Critical Success

[Rhyst]

I have seen the terms Bonus Damage and Extra Damage within different spells/feats.

Example Ki Strike says "... and the Strikes deal 1d6 extra damage."

My thought is that unless an effect modifies one of the below it does not get doubled upon a critical success.
- The attack damage die
- Ability Modifier (if applicable)
- Circumstance/Status/Item Damage Bounus
- Circumstance/Status/Item/Untyped Damage Penalty

[kitmehsu]

I think that is too narrow of a reading. For example we know for a fact that sneak attack is doubled, yet still uses the "deal extra damage" wording. And the only exception mentioned is that effects from a crit are not doubled due to a crit.

[Rhyst]

kitmehsu wrote:

I think that is too narrow of a reading. For example we know for a fact that sneak attack is doubled, yet still uses the "deal extra damage" wording. And the only exception mentioned is that effects from a crit are not doubled due to a crit.

(bold effect mine)

I forgot about that.

Which makes me look at Deadly dX and Fatal dX.

Deadly specifically says add another die BUT roll after doubling the weapon's damage.
Fatal says to increase the weapon damage die AND ALSO add another die of that type.

Both of the above are "On a Critical Hit" so they are both "effects from a crit" but fatal seems to indicate that it's effect would affect the weapon die and thus the damage roll.

[vestris]

I would guess extra damage from a crit is not affected, while replacement effects still take place. So for fatal the higher die is rolled and doubled the extra die not.

[Zaister]

The "Critical Success" entry for Strike reads "As success, but you deal double damage (page 451)."

Page 451, under "Doubling and halving damage", says "When this happens, you roll the damage normally, adding all the normal modifiers, bonuses, and penalties. Then you double [...] the amount [...]. [...] Benefits you gain specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled."

So everything besides bonuses gained from the crit itself gets doubled, unless it explicitly says different.

[Gamuniga]

So, a greatpick (has Fatal d12) when critting would roll (1d12 x2) + 1d12?

[lordcirth]

Gamuniga wrote:

So, a greatpick (has Fatal d12) when critting would roll (1d12 x2) + 1d12?

(1d12+Str)*2 + 1d12, yes.

[Inkfist]

Strange Fatal is strictly worse than deadly as you level then as deadly does add extra dice depending on your striking rune but fatal doesnt. Seeing as deadly weapons also tend towards rogue builds wouldn't a deadly weapon far outstrip the potential of a fatal one?

[Talsharien]

kitmehsu wrote:

I think that is too narrow of a reading. For example we know for a fact that sneak attack is doubled, yet still uses the "deal extra damage" wording. And the only exception mentioned is that effects from a crit are not doubled due to a crit.

Is sneak attack damage doubled, could you point me to the reference in the CRB for this as I cannot find it, Thanks

[shroudb]

Inkfist wrote:

Strange Fatal is strictly worse than deadly as you level then as deadly does add extra dice depending on your striking rune but fatal doesnt. Seeing as deadly weapons also tend towards rogue builds wouldn't a deadly weapon far outstrip the potential of a fatal one?

not even remotely close:

Fatal upgrades the die.

That inherently is much bigger increase from Striking compared to an extra 0-2 d8 (since you double the increased dices, the more dices (striking) the better fatal becomes).

As an example:

disregarding the static die, a crit from a Pick increases the 2d6 to 2d10 (so +4 damage due to fatal), while a crit from a Striking Pick increases the 4d6 to 4d10 (so +8 damage due to fatal)

What basically happens is:

"when your weapon has Striking, add an extra 8 damage from Fatal(as opposed to 0 from deadly)"
"when your weapon has Greater striking add an extra 12 damage from Fatal(as opposed to 1d8 from deadly)"
"when your weapon has Major striking add an extra 16 damage from Fatal (as opposed to 2d8 from deadly)"

as you can see, apart from the "base die" that both fatal and deadly add, both "scale" with the striking rune, Fatal scales much better (+4/+4/+4/+4 as opposed to +0/+0/+4.5/+4.5).

[Kasoh]

Talsharien wrote:

kitmehsu wrote:

I think that is too narrow of a reading. For example we know for a fact that sneak attack is doubled, yet still uses the "deal extra damage" wording. And the only exception mentioned is that effects from a crit are not doubled due to a crit.

Is sneak attack damage doubled, could you point me to the reference in the CRB for this as I cannot find it, Thanks

Sneak Attack (pg 181) says "If you strike a creature that has the flatfooted condition...with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, or a ranged weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage"

Then its as Zaister said above. The effect of critical hit is to double damage, and doubling is defined as doubling all the damage except critical specific damage. There is no exception for sneak attack in sneak attack's entry, so the normal rules for doubling are followed, ergo sneak attack doubles on a critical hit.

[Talsharien]

Makes Sense, sneak attack has been lowered considerably from 1st edition (where it didn't increase on a critical), so that it makes perfect sense than it does.