I've read so many posts/threads on how useful they are.... but I just dont see it.
1) Makes the class more MAD
2) Sub-optimal use of 9th level casting
3) Sub-optimal martial
4) Requires big feat investment
I know about the AOO thing using reach, but the big prob is that as a 3/4 BAB class your ability to hit regular AC is going to diminish as you level up and peoples AC starts getting into the high 20s and above. Even if you do hit the amount of damage you're doing is going to be fairly trivial.
What am I missing??
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SUMMONING MAGDA LUCKBENDER
1) that depends on how you normally play clerics it’s less mad than a typical war cleric
2) how so?
3) it’s not trying to be one
4) combat reflexes is normally the only required feat...
To expand a little further.
Clerics have bad reflexes saves anyway and dumping below 12 isn’t advised, a normally reach Cleric probably doesn’t need to exceed 12 to begin with anyway. 14 is a common starting strength stat. You don’t need massive wis cause you’re not necessarily a save or suck caster.
An array like
12, 14, 12, 10, 16, 12 after facials is enough and it’s a 16point buy for a human.
Depends on how you define an effective use, but there is nothing about being a buffing/summoning/control caster that inhibits being a reach Cleric.
It’s not meant to be a massive martial, I don’t know where that i came from. The idea is to be a summoner/control/buff caster using your standard action to cast and your move action to put you in position to be annoying for your opponents, putting you between your front line and your back line.
What feats do you think you need?
As you pointed out clerics are a 9th level casting class. This is hard coded into the class and requires only minimal investment. Since a lot of their spells are buffs they don’t need to crank up the DC of the saving throw. Channeling energy is not that great of a class ability. It’s not worthless, but also not worth investing in heavily. That means that a cleric is actually a pretty decent class without having to use any feats or completely dumping their other stats to get a sky high casting stat. They are also a medium BAB class with proficiency in medium armor and also often know how to use a decent weapon.
Since they already have their primary role without having to do much they can focus on a secondary role. The idea of a reach cleric is not to try to match what a dedicated martial can do in combat. What it is designed to do is to contribute to combat in a meaningful way when not casting spells. Also keep in mind that the cleric will also benefit from all the buffs they cast for the party. So while they may only be a medium BAB class when they do get around to attacking they will often have substantial bonuses to hit because of spells they and other casters have already cast.
As to the feat investment required sure it takes some feats, but what else do they need them for? This is not to say that a cleric cannot focus solely on spells, but rather that they don’t have to. Unlike a wizard a cleric actually has the ability to become a fairly decent combatant when not using spells. Sure the cleric is going to have a hard time matching a full martial class in combat, but they can still contribute. They may not be able to take down the enemy by themselves, but the extra damage they do will take the enemy down quicker. The faster the enemy goes down the less damage they can do to the party. The less damage they do to the party the less damage the cleric has to heal. This allows the party to remain at full strength longer and have more resources to deal with things that come up.
Clerics can hit just fine. Divine favor and divine power are two self buff spells that work well to patch up their BAB. if you get fate's favored, they add +4 for the 1st level spell, and +7 for the 4th level spell. And that applies to both attack and damage. (divine power also has temp HP and a free haste style effect).
Eventually, you will have enough spell levels to make both of them quickened- that is when you don't even have to think much about whether or not to use them (since that is fast enough to get beyond the "wasted a turn buffing" problem).
Of course, a warpriest is better if you just want to get a pseudo martial. But the point here is that you get a pseudo martial...and you still have 9 levels of summoning and utility spells that are not DC dependent.
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Because a for a standard action a Normal cleric has the option of either
A) Attack with my melee weapon.
B) Cast a spell
whereas a reach cleric casts their spell, and then still gets an attack off due to attacks of opportunity.
So for a single feat you essentially get to double your standard actions each round.
Also 3/4ths bab with a single buff spell is still going to outscale enemy AC at higher levels, especially since because you're using AoOs you're making all your attacks at full BAB.
The essential difference between a reach cleric and a non-reach cleric is a reach weapon vs a shield. And as you need to be able to use your off-hand to hold your weapon while casting, it's a small shield or buckler. At low levels that +1 to AC is pretty insignificant, especially compared to the extra reach, AoO and extra damage you get from a reach weapon. Plus the fact that you don't need to get into contact to fight so they're hitting you less so you don't need the AC.
At higher levels, a magic shield is more significant, but you'll be casting more anyway. And you can spend the money you'd have used on the shield for other things.
The exact weapon you pick does matter (longspear is OK but you can do better), but at the worst that's just one feat and often just a matter of picking the right deity (typically Shelyn, or one of the ranseur users).
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... but the big prob is that as a 3/4 BAB class your ability to hit regular AC is going to diminish as you level up and peoples AC starts getting into the high 20s and above. Even if you do hit the amount of damage you're doing is going to be fairly trivial.
What am I missing??
I think what you're missing is that it doesn't need to keep up.
The Cleric (along with most 9th level casters) isn't very good at casting at low levels (1-4). For Wizards/etc this usually means they grab a crossbow and make peace with being carried to level 5 by the martial characters (that's right, I went there).
The Cleric has the advantage of being able to use armour (and possibly some martial weapons) and has a medium BAB. While not as good as a full BAB character they can still contribute to the combat.
By wielding a reach weapon they get the choice to use weapons/spells/channels/domain-abilities each round while still potentially getting bonus attacks with AoOs. This lets you focus on making yourself the divine magic-user that you know you'll eventually become while still contributing at lower levels. As merill pointed out standing on the front-line also puts you where you need to be should an ally need healing (or should you feel the need to use one of your many "touch spells" on an enemy).
As far as spending feats or spending points on other stats - that's entirely up to you. Spending one or two feats will make you a better martial at low levels, and might keep things relevant through the mid levels.
And if it works with the group you play in, why knock it? If it were a bad fit, sure, then complain. I think fellow players would have a right to do so. But if it fits in, great, even if it isn’t pushing the envelope on individual power.
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SUMMONING MAGDA LUCKBENDER
Portal opens to Magda and she comes through from whatever she was doing. Observers possibly catch a glimpse through the portal of an enthusiastic orgy in progress. Or perhaps that was just your overactive imagination!
Magda politely greets her summoners then sings, dances, and brightens everyones' day before realizing someone asked a question. She answers by way of telling a story in the form of an energetic twirling dance charade. Colorful rainbow clothe streamers trail her movements. Her performance leaves most observers either hard or wet, depending upon particulars, as appropriate to a priestess of Shelyn who is trying to elicit such a reaction.
Her mimetic dance amounts to these words from the 2011 Reach Cleric Guide:
There are a number of guides to various styles of Clerics, and they all possess the same inherent problem:
Action Economy. Or more specifically, what to do with the Standard Action each turn.At level 1, Clerics are completely martial. With only 3 or 4 non-cantrip spells per day, they're going to basically
be a fighter that can cast Cure Light a few times. They simply can't cast enough spells to be any sort of "caster
character". At level 1, there's not a problem with Action Economy: each action is being spent doing some sort
of attack.At level 20, Clerics are completely caster. The get far more value out of casting a spell than they do by
attacking. Why do a standard attack if you can summon a Storm Giant that will do more damage over the
course of a battle while soaking up damage? Why do a quickened Righteous Might when you can do a
quickened Wall of Stone? At level 20, there's not much problem with the Action Economy either: you use
magic if you've got a standard action to work with.And in between those two levels? The Cleric is a strange mix between the two directions, which intersect in a very bad way: The Standard Action.
Unless a Full Attack is involved, both the martial and spellcasting require the round's standard action, which means you have to choose which half of the character to use. It's especially
bad if you play a character through a wide range of levels - all those martial feats and abilities you took early on
have to look on sadly while your character spends most of their time in battle casting spells.Fortunately, there's a build that gets around this limitation: a Reach Cleric
Really, though, y'all already gave solid answers. Magda only showed up because she was invited to do so and because it seemed like fun.
The main idea of a reach cleric is to trade a shield for a reach weapon. You don't get the AC benefit of a shield, but....
Not quite.
The reach-cleric is a concept that off-loads melee combat prowess to the enemy's turn (in the form of received AoOs) in order to reserve one's own turn for positional movement + standard-action spellcasting. Typically this entails being enlarged with a reach-weapon (such as a long-spear in the case of straight-class human clerics) in order to maximise the frequncy of AoOs. The character's attribute array more resembles a fighter's than a caster's, with wisdom advanced only as necessary to minimally cast, with an emphasis usually on Summons.
Accepting a -1 to attack to receive a nice shield bonus from a decently enhanced buckler during two-handed weapon usage is reasonable.
I think what you're missing is that it doesn't need to keep up.
The Cleric (along with most 9th level casters) isn't very good at casting at low levels (1-4). For Wizards/etc this usually means they grab a crossbow and make peace with being carried to level 5 by the martial characters (that's right, I went there).
So in essence are you saying that a Reach Cleric is a good thing as it enables the cleric to contribute more at low levels (1 - 5)? If that is your point, I'm not sure that justifies the concept in terms of the overall build.
Enlarging (or anything else that increases reach) does help get AOOs though and more AOOs makes for a more effective reach cleric.
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So in essence are you saying that a Reach Cleric is a good thing as it enables the cleric to contribute more at low levels (1 - 5)? If that is your point, I'm not sure that justifies the concept in terms of the overall build.
I think what you're missing is that it doesn't need to keep up.
The Cleric (along with most 9th level casters) isn't very good at casting at low levels (1-4). For Wizards/etc this usually means they grab a crossbow and make peace with being carried to level 5 by the martial characters (that's right, I went there).
The minimum investment for a reach cleric is pretty low - Str 14 and one feat, combat reflexes. You don't have spells known like an oracle. It doesn't have to justify much.
Which is not to say that every cleric ever needs to be a reach cleric. There are builds which can't afford one or both of those, channeling builds who want all the feats for channeling and an investment in Cha, bad touch clerics which get little benefit from combat reflexes and will be using unarmed + shield, ranged clerics whose first feats will be point blank shot and precise shot for example.
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So in essence are you saying that a Reach Cleric is a good thing as it enables the cleric to contribute more at low levels (1 - 5)? If that is your point, I'm not sure that justifies the concept in terms of the overall build.I think what you're missing is that it doesn't need to keep up.
The Cleric (along with most 9th level casters) isn't very good at casting at low levels (1-4). For Wizards/etc this usually means they grab a crossbow and make peace with being carried to level 5 by the martial characters (that's right, I went there).
Well it doesn't necessarily, but it can.
I could make a reach cleric with 10-STR, 10-DEX, 13-CON, 10-INT, 20-WIS, 10-CHA, then put zero feats into combat and just be a caster. I can still wield a longspear and wear medium armour and occasionally I'll hit or trip an enemy. This is basically a better use of my time than standing at the back casting spells, since I will also deal some free damage every few rounds. I'll probably take some damage, but if I channel positive energy then I'm better off spreading the damage out a bit anyway.
Or I could drop that WIS just a little and have my stats at: S-14, D-10, C-14, I-10, W-18, C-10. I put 2 feats into Power Attack and Furious Focus. Now I'm dealing decent damage with each AoO, and I'm hitting more often. With a lowly +1 weapon this is doing 1d8+13 damage at level 11 (the end of your PFS carreer). That's not amazing, but since you can still get your WIS to 24 it's still high enough to give you that bonus 6th level spell that you want. The only thing you've really given up is losing 1 point to the DCs of your spells.
With a little stat dumping you could get even better: S-15, D-14, C-14 I-7, W17, C-10. Now you spend one more feat on Combat Reflexes (on top of Power Attack and Furious Focus), up your STR at lvl-4 and your WIS at lvl-8 and make some use of Enlarge Person. Now with a +1 weapon at level 11 you're dealing 2d6+16 damage, and you potentially get a 2nd AoO each turn. Once again you can still get your WIS high enough to get that bonus 6th level spell, but your early levels will see you doing way more damage, and even at 11 you're doing enough to be helpful.
Note that all of these builds can still be focused on casting. If you're playing a caster-focused cleric then you're probably throwing out some group buffs, so why not add one more spear to the mix to maximise the effect of your spells?
This isn't to say you have to do any of this, but more that you CAN do it. Since just holding a Longspear doesn't cost you anything there's no real downside. Some people choose to invest a little more in the combat-side since it really does make thise earlier levels much easier, but the extent you go to is up to you.
EDIT: I forgot to say these stats assumed Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc (with the bonus in WIS), but you could get similar stats with other races.
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The minimum investment for a reach cleric is pretty low - Str 14 and one feat, combat reflexes.
I'd go one further and say you don't even need Combat Reflexes. Everyone gets 1 AoO per turn by default.
Enlarging (or anything else that increases reach) does help get AOOs though and more AOOs makes for a more effective reach cleric.
Enlarging costs actions and spell slots. Enlarging during combat costs you a full round action (which prevents AoOs during that turn). Having said that, if you have the spell-slots and the time to pre-buff then yes, it's a good idea. You're probably better off using it on the Barbarian, but it certainly won't be wasted on you (and Mass Enlarge Person is still a thing).
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I’d agree that combat reflexes is hardly required. All you really need is a reach weapon, like the longspear, since you already have its proficiency. Everything else is just “nice”.
So, to sum it up:
The minimum investment in a reach cleric is a reach weapon in hand, which can just be a longspear, but might also be a deity's favored weapon (which doesn't cost a feat, and the gold cost is negligible).
The rest comes down to just "Buffing themselves along with everyone else" (which they're probably doing anyway), and battlefield positioning, where "second row right behind the melee combatants" isn't that bad of a place to end up in (for a medium armor wearing cleric) anyway.*
It's not that exceptionally effective, but it's easy to do and can come in handy in a pinch. Any further investment just comes down how much martial flavor you want to have in your caster.
*: "Never split the party" has it wrong: Clerics in the middle, wizards in the back, unless you're worried about ambushes from behind.
So, to sum it up:
The minimum investment in a reach cleric is a reach weapon in hand, which can just be a longspear, but might also be a deity's favored weapon (which doesn't cost a feat, and the gold cost is negligible).The rest comes down to just "Buffing themselves along with everyone else" (which they're probably doing anyway), and battlefield positioning, where "second row right behind the melee combatants" isn't that bad of a place to end up in (for a medium armor wearing cleric) anyway.*
It's not that exceptionally effective, but it's easy to do and can come in handy in a pinch. Any further investment just comes down how much martial flavor you want to have in your caster.
*: "Never split the party" has it wrong: Clerics in the middle, wizards in the back, unless you're worried about ambushes from behind.
Yes it does seem that Reach cleric (RC) = Med armour wearing
If I was playing at light armour type cleric, I would be standing very near the wizard with very little intent in getting anyway near melee!
This is the big prob with RC vs melee enemy, even if you view RC as being to "chip in" with AOO attacks, not only are you less likely to hit but the hits you do make will cause minimum damage even with a bit of STR investment.
Melee-centric opponents are high HP opponents and most likely aren't going to care about taking an AOO for a possible 1D6 + 3 damage (or whatever)..... their ability to hit your AC increases dramatically as they level up as does their ability to dish out big damage.... certainly outpacing your ability to absorb it.
Does the ability to deliver the occasional 'free' AOO attack for low damage outweigh the risk of getting splatted quite easily?.... Me thinks not. Especially when you consider that some ability score + feat investment is required in order to even make a base level of competency.
When I've GMed and come up against magic using PCs, I certainly don't do the classic wimpy GM routine of letting the casters stand back and cast!
So, to sum it up:
The minimum investment in a reach cleric is a reach weapon in hand ...
It's not that exceptionally effective, but it's easy to do and can come in handy in a pinch. Any further investment just comes down how much martial flavor you want to have in your caster.
Yes and no. With the minimum investment you'd be correct. With a little more investment it can be one of the most OP characters at low-mid levels. The main question is: "What level(s) am I playing at?"
There's a lot of discussion on these boards about the overpowered nature of casters, but we often forget that it depends on your level. The best description in my opinion is: "Linear Martials, Quadratic Casters."
The idea is that every level up adds power to a martial charscter, but every new spell level multiplies a caster's power...
Eg.
Martial Power = 2 at level 1, +2 per level.
Caster power = 1 at level 1, ×2 per spell-level.
Therefore:
Martial power = 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40.
Caster Power* = 1 1 2 2 4 4 8 8 16 16 32 32 64 64 128 128 256 256 256 256.
In this equation casters almost catch up at level 9, then they overtake at level 11 (personally I think this would happen earlier, but you get the idea - I just pulled the equations out of the air).
What the Reach Cleric allows you to do (with a little investment) is choose the more powerful path at any given level. You can begin the game as more of a martial - contributing more than the casters - and end the game as a caster - contributing more than the martials.
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I am playing a reach Cleric (Evangelist). I only get light armor, but am always mixing it up in melee. Here is how I see it:
You are a buffer and a controller. Your spells buff the party (Bless, Prayer, Blessings of Fervor, summons, ...) and your reach keeps enemies constrained. I often find that I am providing flanking for others. It is not that big a buff for me, at 3/4 BAB, but for the sneak attacker, it means a lot of extra damage. With my Dimensional Hop (Travel domain), I can easily get into flanking. With reach, I can often get into range of enemies without provoking AoOs for doing so.
With my archetype giving me bardic inspiration, I seriously buff the party's damage. I leave open slots for after melee mitigation of problems. [Nothing worse than waiting a day for that Lesser Restoration, or worse yet Raise Dead.] As to being MAD, I don't attack much with spells so I don't need a big casting stat. I dumped Int, and wound up needing a lot of skills for crafting. [I found other ways to crank up my skill values. Yeah magic.] My feats are more than half Item Crafting. And still, I have fun. I am annoyed by some house rules, but they were given ahead of time, so I have made accommodation and moved on.
As a cleric, you are never going to be a primary damage dealer. Your role in melee is not damage, but control. Keep the enemy contained, absorb some damage to keep the squishies alive. Provide flanking for those that need help hitting, or that get bonuses for it.
If your party sees you pulling your weight with buffs and condition removal, they won't be as concerned at a lack of damage.
/cevah
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As you said at the start Doc Roc, you're just not seeing it. Something about your particular experience and background in Pathfinder causes this concept to be in your 'blind spot'. I've seen may players, even experienced players, struggle with this concept until they see it done over multiple sessions. Your experience is not uncommon.
Yes it does seem that Reach cleric (RC) = Med armour wearing
If I was playing at light armour type cleric, I would be standing very near the wizard with very little intent in getting anyway near melee!
Two things:
#1 Light armor can actually get you the SAME AC if you invest in Mithril Breastplate and the Armor Expert trait.#2 If a foe DOES get through to attack the Wizard and Cleric huddling in back, and the cleric DOES wield a longspear, that cleric gets a FREE trip attempt before the foe can attack. The attempt COSTS NOTHING and might work, in which case it just reduced incoming damage to the squishy casters. At no cost. The additional defensive power from reach tactics typically exceeds the defensive power of a shield. Sometimes by a lot.
This is the big prob with RC vs melee enemy, even if you view RC as being to "chip in" with AOO attacks, not only are you less likely to hit but the hits you do make will cause minimum damage even with a bit of STR investment.
You're obviously not familiar with the math. A melee optimized RC who has had the chance to buff up in advance will hit HARDER than the Barbarian. This is just math.
Melee-centric opponents are high HP opponents and most likely aren't going to care about taking an AOO for a possible 1D6 + 3 damage (or whatever)..... their ability to hit your AC increases dramatically as they level up as does their ability to dish out big damage.... certainly outpacing your ability to absorb it.
First, it's FREE EXTRA DAMAGE. What's not to like about that? Second, the numbers can get a LOT bigger than you seem to expect. You are mistaken about the "low" damage.
Does the ability to deliver the occasional 'free' AOO attack for low damage outweigh the risk of getting splatted quite easily?.... Me thinks not. Especially when you consider that some ability score + feat investment is required in order to even make a base level of competency.
Again, it's my experience that RCs consistently reduce incoming damage. So LESS chance of being splatted, not more. Actual play goes exactly opposite to how you seem to think it will be.
That said, when facing big beefy melee foes at high 10+ levels it's generally best for the RC to hang back and leave the dedicated melee PCs to suck up big damage. But that's already near retirement.
I have a theory. One particular play style I've seen tends to be quite averse to the RC concept. Players from games that START at level 10+, where players skip low and mid level play and jump directly into high level play, are most likely to have similar views to yours, doc roc. The RC approach is a poor fit for such groups.
Doc roc, I guess this is your preferred play style from this comment:
So in essence are you saying that a Reach Cleric is a good thing as it enables the cleric to contribute more at low levels (1 - 5)? If that is your point, I'm not sure that justifies the concept in terms of the overall build.
First, Levels 1-5 is HALF THE CAREER of many PCs. Second, RCs also tend to contribute more than non-RCs at levels 6-10. Only at levels 11+ does the RC concept really start to drop off. For many players that's past retirement age and/or around the point where the game breaks, so it doesn't matter.
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I don't think anyone else would say that enlarging yourself is the main idea behind a reach cleric.The reach-cleric is a concept that off-loads melee combat prowess to the enemy's turn (in the form of received AoOs) in order to reserve one's own turn for positional movement + standard-action spellcasting. Typically this entails being enlarged with a reach-weapon (such as a long-spear in the case of straight-class human clerics) in order to maximise the frequncy of AoOs. The character's attribute array more resembles a fighter's than a caster's, with wisdom advanced only as necessary to minimally cast, with an emphasis usually on Summons.
Accepting a -1 to attack to receive a nice shield bonus from a decently enhanced buckler during two-handed weapon usage is reasonable.
"A Reach Cleric uses a Longspear and smart tactics to do full spellcasting while using Combat Reflexes and Attacks of Opportunity to deal out martial damage". That's straight out of Brewer's Guide to Reach Clerics, front and center. (It's an older guide, e.g., Brewer seemed unaware of Accelerated Drinker when he wrote it, but it otherwise stands the test-of-time very well, and I would surmise that only tiny updating is necessary. Brewer's cleric was a full-on martial concept that retained only minimal wisdom. IMO, you don't have to go quite so overboard, unless minmaximizing the concept is your goal. (Brewer basically wanted a fighter who could cast 9th-level divine spells, and got at close as he could to it. See the "Comparisons" section near the end of the guide for several illustrative contrasts.)
If your reach is greater than that of most opponents, you're going to be eligible for probably double to triple the number of AoOs per round during normal thick-of-things combat; and if you're not embiggened, you probably won't be eligible for AoOs at all against plus-sized opponents without more convoluted make-AoOs-happen shenanigans. Therefore, getting big is more important than just being overbearingly strong for a high attack-bonus and beefy damage per swat.
You honestly have only pushed forward your own idea without providing any solid reasoning why its superior to other 'reach' builds that focus more on casting with minimal feat investment.
You reserve one feat for Combat Reflexes, with a second for Power Attack later. All other feats are casting-related. (Since straight-clerics are only proficient with medium armor, having mithral breastplate-accommodating dexterity dovetails into an AoO-generating concept of making that tertiary attribute pull its weight for more than AC and initiative. This means you'll save a feat via not having to take Heavy Armor Proficiency, as straight-class S&B clerics are normally wont to do, and MBP also keeps your move speed up.)
~ ~ ~
Enlarging (or anything else that increases reach) does help get AOOs though and more AOOs makes for a more effective reach cleric.Enlarging costs actions and spell slots. Enlarging during combat costs you a full round action (which prevents AoOs during that turn)....
It costs you a single move-action (at worst) and zero spell-slots. Here's how: Accelerated Drinker trait ....and that's it. Carry a 50gp Enlarge potion in one paw, and slam it at the outbreak of combat, or whenever. With your polearm, you now command AoOs over a 60' patch of battlefield.
~ ~ ~
#2 If a foe DOES get through to attack the Wizard and Cleric huddling in back, and the cleric DOES wield a longspear, that cleric gets a FREE trip attempt before the foe can attack. The attempt COSTS NOTHING and might work, in which case it just reduced incoming damage to the squishy casters. At no cost. The additional defensive power from reach tactics typically exceeds the defensive power of a shield.Assuming a straight-class character, the most-forgotten (due to massive nerfbatting) trait Heirloom Weapon still has its uses. Take it for proficiency in bardiche. (You'll of course need Masterwork Transformation cast at some point, and locking guantlets so you don't ever lose the bloody thing.) Now, instead of desperate attempts to trip increasing big and multi-legged foes, you can instead brace for a charge, and, if you hit, totally stuff a pounce-monster right in his tracks. No soup for you, pal!
That said, when facing big beefy melee foes at high 10+ levels it's generally best for the RC to hang back and leave the dedicated melee PCs to suck up big damage.
Yup. RCs are boss when they're bigger than the opposition, but just a normal schmo when they're not. So, it's an escalation game to keep being larger to secure movement-based AoOs. Nosebleed-seats viability will depend upon the PC's access to Huge/Gargantuan/etc. gimmickry. And not to also mention Fortitude enhancements on armor and buckler to keep inbound crits down to a dull roar.