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My interpretation:
Keen is meant to only be used with meele weapons. When you throw the dagger, it's not used as a melee weapon, so it wouldn't apply.
That keeps complicated "how does this melee-only ability interact with ranged" questions out.
Same.
I'm of the mind to keep it simple as well and leaving the crit range modified by keen whether wielded by hand or thrown. I don't see much point in nitpicking the piss out of it.
I see it written as it can only be applied to a weapon if X. It does not say it only functions when the weapon X. Ergo, if it qualifies to have it on it, it has it. Then it functions that way, regardless of hiw i use it. If I use my vorpal butter knife, and drop it on my foot roll a 20, guess i chopped my head off.... because magic.
A) Technically in a rules as written world, your dagger and your throwing weapon qualify for the property.
B) The property does not say it doesn't function when it is used a certain way, simply what can or cannot have it.
c) You attack with weapon, its properties activate....seems pretty simple. It only gets tricky if you try to read past the fairly basic description. Use is not the same as have.
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Does it actually seem overpowered to anyone to allow keen on a thrown dagger? Because I'm not seeing it. Meanwhile, the rules could be interpreted any which way, so why not let the combo work?
Does it actually seem overpowered to anyone to allow keen on a thrown dagger? Because I'm not seeing it. Meanwhile, the rules could be interpreted any which way, so why not let the combo work?
The question is not about daggers, but the underlying mechanic.
If it applies to daggers, it applies to starknives, nodachi, fauchards, etc.
Does it actually seem overpowered to anyone to allow keen on a thrown dagger? Because I'm not seeing it. Meanwhile, the rules could be interpreted any which way, so why not let the combo work?The question is not about daggers, but the underlying mechanic.
If it applies to daggers, it applies to starknives, nodachi, fauchards, etc.
...so? Is it problematic that allowing a dagger to retain the keen-influenced threat range when thrown means you should do the same with starknives? I don't think so. And throwing any of those weapons that aren't meant for throwing? The rules already saddle you with some problems with those (-4 to hit, bad action economy, poor range, gimped crits). The keen benefit isn't exactly going to break anything.
If it applies to daggers, it applies to starknives, nodachi, fauchards, etc.
Okay.
The keen benefit isn't exactly going to break anything.
That's my thinking. If it's not overpowered from melee then it's probably not overpowered from just a little further away.
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I'm less concerned about keen and more concerned about some other arbitrary melee-only property that I can't remember but will come back to bite me later. It's easier to just let melee things be melee things.
I'm less concerned about keen and more concerned about some other arbitrary melee-only property that I can't remember but will come back to bite me later. It's easier to just let melee things be melee things.
Are you being hypothetical or is there actually a thing you're worried about?
melee dmg is the same as thrown dmg as they both use STR as dmg mod
I'm less concerned about keen and more concerned about some other arbitrary melee-only property that I can't remember but will come back to bite me later. It's easier to just let melee things be melee things.Are you being hypothetical or is there actually a thing you're worried about?
Worry's a strong word, but there are a lot of weapon properties these days. I'd rather not allow this without a good reason then have to reverse course later.
melee dmg is the same as thrown dmg as they both use STR as dmg mod
Know how I know you didn't read the thread subject? ; )
...so? Is it problematic that allowing a dagger to retain the keen-influenced threat range when thrown means you should do the same with starknives? I don't think so. And throwing any of those weapons that aren't meant for throwing? The rules already saddle you with some problems with those (-4 to hit, bad action economy, poor range, gimped crits). The keen benefit isn't exactly going to break anything.Does it actually seem overpowered to anyone to allow keen on a thrown dagger? Because I'm not seeing it. Meanwhile, the rules could be interpreted any which way, so why not let the combo work?The question is not about daggers, but the underlying mechanic.
If it applies to daggers, it applies to starknives, nodachi, fauchards, etc.
Starknives are like daggers in that they start as both melee and thrown weapons, but have some reasonably powerful build paths (CHA to-hit and damage, dedicated combat style etc.)
As for the rest: everything is ranged if you really want it to be. A fighter dipping 1 level into Alchemist for mutagen picks up Throw Anything as a perk at no additional cost. Sharding gives any weapon the ability to substitute a ranged attack instead of a melee attack, etc.
If keen works on a dagger when thrown, it works on all melee weapons when used at range. If you are okay with this, so be it. If you are not okay with this, you need to be consistent with your rulings.
expanded keen threat range is fine for thrown weapon, as they are usually lumped with melee weapons for the rules that govern them (namely the rules that govern the dmg bonus)
If keen works on a dagger when thrown, it works on all melee weapons when used at range.
This is the way I see it. Threat range is a feature of the weapon itself, not how it is used. A melee weapon that can be thrown is still a melee weapon. The threat range is integral to the damage dice, and from a designer point of view, the main way to balance damage dice for a weapon (barring other features like disarming, brace, reach etc.)
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Does it actually seem overpowered to anyone to allow keen on a thrown dagger? Because I'm not seeing it. Meanwhile, the rules could be interpreted any which way, so why not let the combo work?
At what point in time did RAW care about whether something was OP or not? You can use that reasoning for why you house rule something one way or another, but for an actual discussion on what a rule is it has no bearing on the matter.
So if a dagger with keen gets its effect when thrown, and since a dagger is also a thrown weapon, we could then put Greater Designating on it and get all the benefits while making melee attacks right?
Or give my two handed weapon of choice the throwing enchantment, then apply lesser designating and gain all the benefits? So while making such as weapon would require a total of +3 worth of enchantments and only provide me with a net +2 attack/damage, so not as good for me personally as just adding +3 enhancement bonus to my weapon, it does wonders for a party with multiple melee classes, or for my full TWF build since I don't have to stack as many bonuses on my off hand weapon.
As to the actual question, rules here are murky, but I fall in the "in must be used as a melee weapon to qualify for benefits that are applied to it as a melee weapon".
At what point in time did RAW care about whether something was OP or not?
At the point where either reading of the rules is equally valid and thus equally RAW. The rules as written can only take you so far. At a certain point you have to use your own judgement. My judgement is that this is fine.
I'm not worried about someone spending lots of feats and resources just to be slightly better in a fight than someone who just took the standard bow options.
My judgement is that this is fine.
Curious if you feel the same about the designating enchantment examples I provided.
I don't think I'd allow a Designating Dagger, but I would allow a Keen dagger being thrown. The dagger is listed in the simple light melee weapons table and thus I'd rule it a melee weapon not a ranged weapon.
Ranged weapons have their own table including bows, slings, javelins, etc. The fact that a dagger can be thrown(heck so can a sword if you really want to) does not make it a ranged weapon.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
So, that second bolded sentence is vague but you could take it to mean that weapons that are effective in melee are not “ranged weapons”.
But this also supports that a thrown melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
Disagree. Its putting melee stuff on ranged attacks and ignoring all creatures in front of you to handwave away any boss fight at a distance.
If you really think it is problem you could outlaw this combo. But lets be honest here, it is not actually a very good strategy. The set up requires 78k worth of gear between the dagger and the helm which means you are already at very late game. It only works once a day, and even if you use the cyclops helm to get a 20, you still need to confirm a crit. A dagger only has 10 feet of thrown range, so your opponent is probably several range increments away(and if they are not, then reaching them with a melee vorpal weapon likely isn't hard anyway).
And then there are quite a few enemies this strategy just doesn't work against making your 78k investment fairly worthless. And even against a plain old human, when all of these stars align to provide an opportunity, if they are high enough level to present a challenge, there is probably a moderate chance they have some form of defense. A displacement spell, fortification armor, mirror image, etc.
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Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.So, that second bolded sentence is vague but you could take it to mean that weapons that are effective in melee are not “ranged weapons”.
But this also supports that a thrown melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
You still run into the problem with chakram, throwing shields, axe muskets, etc.
They are specifically designated as ranged weapons, but usable in melee.
Do you allow Designating to work in melee on those weapons? If so, how is this different than allowing keen to work on a "melee" weapon used at range?
Personally, I only allow weapon properties to work if the weapon meets the prereqs at the time and in the manner of usage.
I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.
One simple, consistent ruling that applies equally to everything.
Other DM's may rule differently, and are free to do so, but you run into a lot more corner cases where things have unanticipated interactions.
Also, minor point, but you can't use the Cyclops Helm and the Quickened True Strike in the same round unless you have a way to take more than one swift action per round.
Cyclops Helm is an immediate action. Immediate actions during your turn count as swift action. Quickened True Strike is also a swift action.
So, you'd need something like the Corset of Delicate Moves to convert your move into a second swift action. This leaves you with nothing but a single standard action, but then, that's all you need to behead someone with Vorpal.
Also, minor point, but you can't use the Cyclops Helm and the Quickened True Strike in the same round unless you have a way to take more than one swift action per round.
Cyclops Helm is an immediate action. Immediate actions during your turn count as swift action. Quickened True Strike is also a swift action.
So, you'd need something like the Corset of Delicate Moves to convert your move into a second swift action. This leaves you with nothing but a single standard action, but then, that's all you need to behead someone with Vorpal.
I don't allow cyplops helms, unless you are in the Emerald Spire and reach that point in the story. Same goes with other AP specific magic items and spells (e.g. Blood Magic.
You still run into the problem with chakram, throwing shields, axe muskets, etc.Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.So, that second bolded sentence is vague but you could take it to mean that weapons that are effective in melee are not “ranged weapons”.
But this also supports that a thrown melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
You can wield the chakram as a melee weapon, but it is not designed for such use
So, a Chakram is not a "melee weapon", but it can be wielded as one. In this case, it's up to the DM if "ranged weapon" enchantments still function when the weapon is wielded as "not-a-ranged-weapon" or in other words a "melee weapon". But this is different than the case of thrown melee weapons, as those are never specified to function as "ranged weapons", you merely make ranged attacks with them.
A throwing shield is a weird case. It seems to be a modification of a shield, but it does the same damage whether used on a heavy shield or a light shield or even a buckler. It either changes the shield to be a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon or it is an error to list it in the ranged weapons category.
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon.
Axe musket is a double weapon with one "end" being a ranged weapon and one "end" being a melee weapon. Each is enchanted as its own thing and the bonuses of one end wouldn't apply to the other end.
The point of the original quoted text is that a melee weapon is a melee weapon full time, and a ranged weapon is a ranged weapon full time. There may be specific examples that override this like the Chakram or Javelin, at which point the rules don't exactly say what to do when the bonus doesn't match the acting type. But a dagger is a melee weapon, whether in melee or when thrown.
I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.
Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?
Bonuses for crits get used for confirmation. Hence true strike. Takes care of a lot of range penalties too.As for cost, I already said it was expensive. But then again its sort cheap when you simply hand wave away a boss fight every day. Dragon? Once a day please. Demon lord? Sure. Item cost you 78 k for a rather nice loot haul. Seems pretty cheap actually.
Hell just give it to the bloodrager. He can cast true strike the round before and also is full bab. Reach level 11 (right about the time its affordable) and doesn't even need that round before.
In fact here's a fun combo.
Blood rager rages, free true strike. Activates Helm. Kills boss. Oh but there was secretly two bosses! Haha got you.
"I end my rage. While I'm exhausted guess I'll just put on my new helm next round. Only costs 5600. Oh wait even cheaper since it seemed smart for us to take some craft feats."
In fact, he could craft it with character wealth at level 9 and still have change over.
The problem is we can't say "why not just ban that combo" while at the same time saying "RAW doesn't care about something being OP". Only reason it's that absurd is because we asked the question "is there a way this comes back to bite us in the ass" and yes. There is.
I know I'm taking it to the extreme of being silly but these are items off the top of my head. I'm positive someone else can do worse.
Honestly, if it's too good with a thrown ranged weapon, it's too good with a melee weapon considering all the ways a character could use to close with that boss. To me, that says the problem lies some place other than the fact that a weapon was thrown.
Given the presence of a powerful magic weapon effect that triggers off a specific die roll, any item or power that gives you the ability to pick that roll when you want it has to be suspect.
Interestingly, we're working through a similar issue in Star Wars Saga Edition. Jedi Masters have the ability to auto-roll a natural 20 at the cost of a full round action + a swift action. Rolling a natural 20 on a Use the Force check to activate a Force power refreshes all of their encounter-based Force powers. Meaning - any Jedi Master can very easily recharge all of their used Force powers. It's a very potent ability - potentially too good.
I’ve been looking and may have simply missed it, but the general question is if a magic weapon special ability that you can only place on melee weapons, such as keen, still functions if the weapon is thrown and therefore used in a ranged attack.
To the OP: Keen is not restricted to weapon usage, but to weapon category. A dagger is classified as a 'light melee weapon' and thus can receive the keen weapon property. Nothing in the weapon property description affects weapon usage, i.e. the effect of keen is "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."
A dagger is a piercing or slashing melee weapon.
The main issue seems to be with the terminology of "ranged weapon". Common sense may lead you to think that any ranged attack must be a ranged weapon, but "ranged weapon" is actually a game term that applies only to specific weapons.
There are a handful of weapons that could be considered both a "melee weapon" and a "ranged weapon", but a dagger is not one of those weapons.
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In fact here's a fun combo.Blood rager rages, free true strike. Activates Helm. Kills boss. Oh but there was secretly two bosses! Haha got you.
"I end my rage. While I'm exhausted guess I'll just put on my new helm next round. Only costs 5600. Oh wait even cheaper since it seemed smart for...
Yes, but if you are doing all of this, how much of an advantage is the range at that point? A weapon can only be thrown 5 range increments(regardless of true strike I believe). Just have air walk on you and you can go reach the boss anyway. At the level these combos are happening, closing with a boss is probably trivial. And again, I'd probably have some bosses with displacement, invisibility, mirror image, fortification(or even the fortified armor training feat), etc.
The problem here is the cyclops helm. It is a specific super powerful weapon open to a lot of cheesy goodness. My general stance is that it is an item that was published in one module as a reward for reaching a threshold and shouldn't be open to the general public.
There are a handful of weapons that could be considered both a "melee weapon" and a "ranged weapon", but a dagger is not one of those weapons.
I do not aim to nitpick here, but this statement is incorrect. The weapon tables do not contain duplicate entries for the same weapon. You will not find a weapon that is both in the melee weapon and ranged weapon table. Some weapons have special uses under their description (like the halfling sling staff that can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size) but that doesn't change the weapon classification (i.e. the halfling sling staff is a ranged weapon, listed in the ranged weapon table).
I’m not defining it by the tables alone.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Being a melee weapon or a ranged weapon is fairly binary. A weapon has to specify otherwise to count as both. The dagger is not one of these exceptions.
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The main issue seems to be with the terminology of "ranged weapon". Common sense may lead you to think that any ranged attack must be a ranged weapon, but "ranged weapon" is actually a game term that applies only to specific weapons.
There are a handful of weapons that could be considered both a "melee weapon" and a "ranged weapon", but a dagger is not one of those weapons.
The term "ranged weapon" is used in different places to mean both "weapon that is listed under the 'ranged' category" and "thing that is being used to make a ranged attack". Ditto for "melee weapon". The rules are context-sensitive, so it falls to the intrepid reader to figure out what the writers mean. Sometimes it is "obvious", and sometimes it is not.
Here's some more rules text that could be read in interesting ways:
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.
So, do non-enhancment bonuses not apply to both? Or were the special abilities included with "enhancement bonuses".
This does imply an all or nothing ruling though. Either the dagger keeps keen when thrown or it also loses things like flaming since that's not an enhancement bonus either.