Hi all
I'm about to join a newly started homebrew campaign. The current party consists of: Fighter/Barb, Wizard, Witch (Healer arch) and Paladin.
Limitations:
Level: 4
Race: Core races
Classes: Core, Base and UC - allowed to use 3pp Unchained Ninja (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/alterna te-classes/everyman-gaming-unchained-ninja/).
Stats: STR: 16, Dex: 11, Con: 9, Int: 15, Wiz: 16, Cha: 15.
Character concept:
Think of Ezio/Alistar from AC fighting Unarmed/Hidden Blade:
Unarmed/Close combat ninja/monk, can initate fights by dropping smoke bombs/poison bombs (From either ninja tricks or consumables) and stab ppl inside the smoke in order to get SA (I hope this is allowed) using Goz Mask or Fog cutting lenses.
Fights unarmed with a hidden blade. Spring loaded sheath with a dagger of some sort. I will try to ask my GM to allow it to be tinkered in order to have a "Quick Sheath" funktion also. It should resemble the "Hidden Blade" from AC.
The group is not optimized and my character shouldn't be either, but I want it to work in combat and out of combat as well. I'm a little lost on how to accomplish that.
Any ideas on how to build such character? I am also open to other concepts of this type of character :)
If you dip 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, you can give your Allies the ability to see through fire or smoke. Then just get yourself and Eversmoking Bottle, now all your opponents are Blind, and you can hack them up as fine as you please. So can all your allies.
I prefer a Tengu with Claws for this kind of thing. Once you get your opponents durably without their Dex Mods to AC, then every attack gets you SAD.
I like having a few ways of locking in Sneak Attack Damage. With 2 levels in Snakebite Striker Brawler, you can get really good at Feinting.
The Ninja Vanishing Trick lets you turn Invisible as a Swift Action.
The False Attacker Rogue Talent will convince your opponents that your attacks came from some other direction.
Dirty Tricks can make your opponent Blind, and if they have Blindsight or Blind Fighting, Dirty Tricks can make them Deaf, too.
The nice thing about Natural Attacks is the more you get, the more you get. A Tengu can start with a Bite and 2 Claws. 2 levels in Barbarian can get you a Gore Attack, so could an Animal Mask or a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. A single level in Witch with the White Hair Archetype give you a Hair Attack.
So for informational purposes (it's both higher level and needs a book not on your list) I'll share the best version of the original Assassin's Creed I've been able to make in Pathfinder.
First you need to have Snapping Turtle Style for Snapping Turtle Clutch. This lets you, when an opponent misses you in combat, make an immediate action grapple (at a -2). Then you use Greater Grapple (move action) to pin them on your turn and Throat Slicer (standard action) to coup de grace them. Basically, if they swing and miss you grab them, pin them, and (probably) kill them. It's fairly involved for basically just one cool trick and it's very campaign dependent (doesn't work on oozes, elementals, constructs, or undead) but it very much recreates the iconic counter-stab kill.
Also, hilariously, the best weapon to do it with is a Pick (heavy or light) for that x4 crit.
As for a mundane version of the Hidden Blade, you're probably never going to find it. Pathfinder has a real problem with quick sheathing for reasons I never really understood (something with shields?). With some magic however, this would seem to work (not in a book available to you). Swift action to draw, move action to sheath. The upgrade is Gloves of Storing, a free action for both. If you're willing to burn money and just want the surprise weapon factor Liquid Blade lets you create weapons out of nothing to stab a dude (it's a shortsword but I can't see a GM refusing to downgrade it to a dagger).
But there's always going to be a fundamental problem with the concept. Anything "mundane assassin" not based around actual Save or Die abilities is going to have to be based on high spike damage. Spike damage, by its very nature, cannot be repeated that often. If it is then it's just baseline damage. And unless you're playing something wildly unbalanced spike damage is generally balanced by per-day resources or poor hit chance. Basically, if you're trying to play Altair or Ezio you're going to be disappointed by either running out of juice or only hitting 40% of the time (and only the new games are that buggy). Sneak attack is a patch to using a tiny weapon with low strength, Fighter with a Greatsword is probably more damage and does it all day. This is more of an expectations thing though so I can't really suggest anything to fix it. You basically have to resolve yourself to just being "sneaky guy who stabs people who can't see them", not "unstoppable killing machine if they can't see you".
For a truly Assassins Creed vibe, take Branch Pounce and grab Boots of the Cat
Drop from extremely high places and take minimum falling damage while adding 1d6 damage per 10 feet you land on them.
This is a nice item for quick access to a hidden dagger.
Glove of Storing
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 236, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 515
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot hands; Price 10,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove’s effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A glove of storing uses up the wearer’s entire hands slot. The wearer may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.
Thanks for the answers guys!
Scott Wilhem wrote: If you dip 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, you can give your Allies the ability to see through fire or smoke. Then just get yourself and Eversmoking Bottle, now all your opponents are Blind, and you can hack them up as fine as you please. So can all your allies.
I prefer a Tengu with Claws for this kind of thing. Once you get your opponents durably without their Dex Mods to AC, then every attack gets you SAD.
I like having a few ways of locking in Sneak Attack Damage. With 2 levels in Snakebite Striker Brawler, you can get really good at Feinting.
The Ninja Vanishing Trick lets you turn Invisible as a Swift Action.
The False Attacker Rogue Talent will convince your opponents that your attacks came from some other direction.
Dirty Tricks can make your opponent Blind, and if they have Blindsight or Blind Fighting, Dirty Tricks can make them Deaf, too.
The nice thing about Natural Attacks is the more you get, the more you get. A Tengu can start with a Bite and 2 Claws. 2 levels in Barbarian can get you a Gore Attack, so could an Animal Mask or a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. A single level in Witch with the White Hair Archetype give you a Hair Attack.
Unfortunately I cannot use either Tengu nor Brawler. If I could, I guess Brawler would be the go to class for this kind of build. But I'm restricted to Core, Base and UC classes and have been given permission to use the Unchained Ninja from 3PP. I would really like to use the UC Ninja class as I think it offers some cool shenanigangs.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: So for informational purposes (it's both higher level and needs a book not on your list) I'll share the best version of the original Assassin's Creed I've been able to make in Pathfinder.
First you need to have Snapping Turtle Style for Snapping Turtle Clutch. This lets you, when an opponent misses you in combat, make an immediate action grapple (at a -2). Then you use Greater Grapple (move action) to pin them on your turn and Throat Slicer (standard action) to coup de grace them. Basically, if they swing and miss you grab them, pin them, and (probably) kill them. It's fairly involved for basically just one cool trick and it's very campaign dependent (doesn't work on oozes, elementals, constructs, or undead) but it very much recreates the iconic counter-stab kill.
How would you build this character? I have read the same suggestion somewhere else, and I can see the resemblance to Altair/Ezio from AC.
I am not dead set on being unarmed. Using two shorts swords like the wakizashi or something like that would be cool too if going "Hidden Blade" is not workable.
I think it could persuade my DM (Good friend of mine) to make the Spring loaded Sheath work like it does in AC or refluff the spiked gauntlet. Cannot see the big problem in that.
Are those stats set in stone? Dex 11, Con 9, d8 HD, light armor means that if an enemy can see you you're going down. Hard.
avr wrote: Are those stats set in stone? Dex 11, Con 9, d8 HD, light armor means that if an enemy can see you you're going down. Hard. Unfortunately yes (I have complained about it >:) ) - Our Wizard has like 9 in Int but has been given a int belt in compensation. Our GM wants the campaign to be less min/max and more RP. It is a test to see how it goes :) If not, we might change back to another stating system.
I know the stats is far better for other characters, but our party kind of need a sneaky/roguish char. I was thinking if I could be more reliant on STR and less on DEX for this char it could go okay.
That's not less minmaxed, that's unplayable. You've got good stats in all but your important stats. You have a wizard who can't even cast his own cantrips, for crying out loud.
There are ways to defend without using AC (besides invisibility) and you might want to pick up one of them. These are mostly incompatible with snapping turtle clutch, but with AC 13-14 you don't want to rely on that however fitting it may be.
Snake style feat - prereq improved unarmed strike. Lets you substitute a sense motive check for your AC vs. one attack per round.
Opportune parry and riposte - gained via a dip in swashbuckler. Lets you substitute an attack roll for your AC vs. one attack per round.
Dodging panache - can be gained via a dip in swashbuckler or via the amateur swashbuckler feat. Add Cha to AC vs. one attack and move 5', which may take you out of reach of the rest of a full attack.
So going to say the things you don't want to hear. You've got really good stats for a cleric, bard or paladin. The 9 con really hurts.
You're stats are bad for a lightly armored guy that wants to duck in and out of melee combat. Considering your stats, being a Rogue/Assassin is the worst possible choice of class you could make. Well, ok melee Kinetesist would be worse. But still, its bad.
I'm of one of two thoughts on doing the whole assassin thing. Either you go full in on sneak attack, or you go ranger. The sneak attack will give you dice of damage. Ranger will let you choose favored enemy. Your stats are better for a Ranger than a Rogue. If you could go to other source books vigilante would be really good.
If you pick rogue, the deft palm rogue talent and a wrist sheath is all you'd need to have a hidden weapon. Heck, walk around with a dagger in your hand 24/7. With deft palm most people wouldn't notice.
Duffe wrote: Unfortunately I cannot use either Tengu nor Brawler. If I could, I guess Brawler would be the go to class for this kind of build. But I'm restricted to Core, Base and UC classes and have been given permission to use the Unchained Ninja from 3PP. That sounds like Flame Dancer Bard + Eversmoking Bottle are still on the table. You were saying you were all about using Smoke.
Duffe wrote: Unarmed/Close combat ninja/monk, can initate fights by dropping smoke bombs/poison bombs (From either ninja tricks or consumables) and stab ppl inside the smoke in order to get SA (I hope this is allowed) using Goz Mask or Fog cutting lenses. Duffe wrote: I would really like to use the UC Ninja class as I think it offers some cool shenanigangs. That also sounds like you can still use Ninja Vanishing Trick + False Attacker to snipe using stealth and maintain your stealth.
You're allowed to be a Half Elf. There is a Half Elf Alternate Racial Trait that lets you use Magic Wands like a Wand of Scorching Ray. Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC that lock in Sneak Attack Damage! If you can't use that trait, it would probably be worth it to dip a level in Wizard. I would have you dip a level in Arcanist so you could also get Dimensional Slide for Flanking, but if you can't take levels in Brawler, you can't take levels in Arcanist, either.
Duffe wrote: I'm restricted to Core, Base and UC The Quick Dirty Trick Feat is in Ultimate Combat, but the prerequisite for it, Improved Dirty Trick, is in the Advanced Players' Guide. That seems like justification for ask your GM allow you to take Improved and Greater dirty trick, as well. I like the combination: Makes your opponents Blinded and Deafened, and any number of other bad things.
Duffe wrote: I am not dead set on being unarmed. Using two shorts swords like the wakizashi or something like that would be cool too if going "Hidden Blade" is not workable. How about 2 weapon fighting with Armor Spikes? or Morning Star and Armor Spikes? Maybe Phalanx Soldier Fighter 2 weapon fighting with Halberd, Light, Spiked Shield and Armor Spikes?
I'm thinking you take Hamatula Strike and get good at Grappling. When you wear Armor Spikes, every successful Grapple Attack does Armor Spike Damage, and since a Grapple Check is an Attack Roll, too, then every Spiked Grapple Check is potentially eligible for Sneak Attack Damage as well, so that's like 4 Attacks/round.
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