I dont doubt patrons can give spells that work for the things I mentioned, but it's not like patron spells work like domain spells (get a free prep/cast). Its a lot like cleric/druid spontaneous casting, you dont have to prep cure spells since you can always cast them.
Here you dont have to prep X effect spell, since you can always just use an infusion.
Not the privilege of casting those types of spells, the "privilege" of being able to cast them spontaneously.
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I actually agree that losing hexes is bad, hexes are extremely strong. I just dont think its "hot garbage" as was mentioned in the thread. You didnt suddenly become useless or negative for the party, and it's not like you can't pull your weight in other ways.
An Example of a patron you could use instead would be elemental
You can get damage spells that tick over several turns and walls from patrons pretty easily. And get other fun things too.
Also those patrons aren't even generally considered that great.
Havocker is getting spontaneous casting access to some very weak foe spells, which you could get better versions of through a patron. True you would have to prepare them. But worry not, you got a whole pile of hexes too!
I called it hot garbage and don't think I was wrong.
Its an archetype which would be shaky at best if it was just trading away a patron.
Throwing away hexes on top is hot garbage.
Here you dont have to prep X effect spell, since you can always just use an infusion.
Not the privilege of casting those types of spells, the "privilege" of being able to cast them spontaneously.
The question here is what you would rather have - strong spells that you need to prepare, or a better cantrip that you never really want to use because it's usually a waste of a standard action.
I actually agree that losing hexes is bad, hexes are extremely strong. I just dont think its "hot garbage" as was mentioned in the thread. You didnt suddenly become useless or negative for the party, and it's not like you can't pull your weight in other ways.
Chromantic Durgon is talking about Havoker compared to a regular Witch - for that specific comparison, "hot garbage" is pretty fair. You are looking at Havoker as compared to all other classes (a tier evaluation if you will) - with the result that Havoker is still tier 1, the opposite of "garbage". Basically, you're both right, just talking about different things.
The blast isn’t a waste of actions. It’s just not an alpha action. Meaning, it’s not the action you usually start a fight off with. It’s more of a cleanup option. Something good to do when the fight is already controlled. And sometimes it is the alpha action, when the enemies are resistant to your spells or not worth the slots.
Hence the "usually". I did already mention it for "cleanup after the combat is already decided." Of course, after a few levels, you should also never run out of low level spell slots, so you could use those instead for cleanup or for easy enemies. Plus, since a non-Havoker can use hexes instead of spells, a regular Witch actually has more spell slots freely aviable.
The blast isn’t a waste of actions. It’s just not an alpha action. Meaning, it’s not the action you usually start a fight off with. It’s more of a cleanup option. Something good to do when the fight is already controlled. And sometimes it is the alpha action, when the enemies are resistant to your spells or not worth the slots.
By level -->
1: 1d6+1 damage (avg 4.5)
2: 1d6+1 damage (avg 4.5), sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle
3-4: 2d6+1 damage (avg 8), sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle
5: 3d6+1 (avg 11.5) damage, sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle
6: 3d6+1 (avg 11.5) damage, sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle or 3rd level spell to Shaken, Stagger (1 round), or Darkness (1 round)
7-8: 4d6+1 (avg 15) damage, sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle or 3rd level spell to Shaken, Stagger (1 round), or Darkness (1 round)
9-10: 5d6+2 (avg 19.5) damage, sacrifice 1st level spell to Dazzle or 3rd level spell to Shaken, Stagger (1 round), or Darkness (1 round) or 5th level spell to Sicken.
etc...
You lose a lot to gain very little. On top of that, if you try to use what little you gain, you're lured into throwing away even more resources. Having an at-will energy blast is cute, but it certainly isn't good.
You could choose better infusions though. Fan of Flames is pretty nice at low level and cost. And there are higher level good options for other elements. It really feels like you purposely chose some of the worst infusions for your examples.
It’s more of a cleanup option.I feel like you're making a compelling argument as to the problems of the archetype with your own defense of it here.
This archetype radically changes the witch's core class features to be about kinetic blast and infusions. It's the entire focus of the archetype and ostensibly something that someone who's attracted to the archetype wants to use.
Hexes are largely redundant to the witch's spells though. They are both full of will saves and fort saves. And they both have options for healing and travel. When I played a witch, I was really frustrated that the hexes largely left the spells feeling like a secondary thing. And it isn't that the hexes are better than the spells past a certain level. It's the fact that you can spam some hex for every fight. Havocker moves the spell stuff back to spells and gives you some convenient damage in its place.
It's still not a good archetype. But only because it doesn't have infusion specialization. If it had that one thing, it'd be pretty decent.
You could choose better infusions though. Fan of Flames is pretty nice at low level and cost. And there are higher level good options for other elements. It really feels like you purposely chose some of the worst infusions for your examples.
Are there better infusions? I'm having trouble finding infusions that don't:
1. Do pitiful damage as AoE with low save DC
2. Make a combat maneuver with a 1/2 BAB class
3. Inflict minor Condition on enemy for a short time
4. Require a Utility Wild Talent (which you can't get)
5. Put out a fire
Are there better infusions? I'm having trouble finding infusions that don't:
1. Do pitiful damage as AoE with low save DC
The save DC shouldn't be that low. It scales with level and for form infusions is based off of dexterity, which your average witch will have as a secondary stat anyway.
Every wild talent has an effective spell level. A kineticist can always select 1st-level wild talents, but she can select a wild talent of a higher level only if her kineticist level is at least double the wild talent's effective spell level. Kinetic blast and defense wild talents are always considered to have an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the kineticist's class level (to a maximum effective spell level of 9th at kineticist level 18th).
Unless otherwise noted, the DC for a saving throw against a wild talent is equal to 10 + the wild talent's effective spell level + the kineticist's Constitution modifier. The kineticist uses her Constitution modifier on all concentration checks for wild talents.
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The DC for a save against an infusion is based on the associated kinetic blast’s effective spell level, not the level of the infusion. The DCs for form infusions are calculated using the kineticist’s Dexterity modifier instead of her Constitution modifier.
I suppose you could choose to focus on constitution if you wanted and use substance infusions, but I feel like that's the weaker option compared to dexterity and form infusions. Especially since there are AoE form infusions that completely sidestep your low BAB issue.
Magnetic Infusion isn't a bad debuff, but that's a level 3 spell.
Yeah, I agree -- It's not bad, but I'd like to think that you could do more with a 3rd level spell than give a +4 to hit a single opponent for 1 round.
The save DC shouldn't be that low. It scales with level and for form infusions is based off of dexterity, which your average witch will have as a secondary stat anyway.
It won't be high. It certainly won't (or shouldn't) be anywhere close to your spell DC. Your Fan of Flames should be about 14, maxing around 16, your Torrent or Blast should be about 16, maxing around 18. That's if you start with 16 Dexterity.
You're still sacrificing a 1st level spell to do damage to a 15' arc, a 3rd level spell to do damage in a 30' line... And if you want Eruption or Explosion, you have to spend one of your 5 Infusion slots on Extended range, too.
Average damage scales at these levels (save for half):
1: 4.5
3: 8
5: 11.5
7: 15
9: 18.5
11: 22
13: 25.5
15: 29
17: 32.5
19: 36
Honestly, I can't see anything good about the Form Infusions.
The save DC shouldn't be that low. It scales with level and for form infusions is based off of dexterity, which your average witch will have as a secondary stat anyway.It won't be high. It certainly won't (or shouldn't) be anywhere close to your spell DC. Your Fan of Flames should be about 14, maxing around 16, your Torrent or Blast should be about 16, maxing around 18. That's if you start with 16 Dexterity.
16 to 18 is not a terrible DC for level 2, especially when failure usually just means half damage. And the DC will scale with your level, always staying relevant. The DC is only going to be bad if you choose to keep it bad.
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OK, so here is my hot-take.
Since the Hex Class ability itself is NOT replaced wholesale by this Archetype (Mind the wording is "... replaces the witch’s 1st-level hex") but instead it removes the 1st Hex you WOULD get from this Class Feature, and then supplementally replaces those you would get later on as you level as well as Major and Grand Hexes with the various Class abilities.
So what it ACTUALLY leaves you with is a Character which still technically has the Hex Class ability, it's just been modified so that you don't actually gain any Hexes from level advancement.
The 1st Level Hex FROM THAT CLASS ABILITY was replaced, but NOT the Hex ability itself(Hex the Class Ability and the actual Hexes you gain are mechanically different things). Similarly, all the additional Hexes they are granted are similarly replaced as you advance in level, however, I don't see any wording anywhere that indicates the entire Class Ability/Feature was replaced, instead, it clarifies that the Hexes you would get from the Class Ability are substituted for Infusion.
I'm not sure if this vague wording was accidental or not, but by RAW the Havocker can still take Extra Hex and gain whatever Hexes they qualify for excluding Major or Grand Hexes as those two ARE unique Class Abilities which are called out as having been replaced wholesale, so you'd be limited to the weaker regular Hexes but it's totally doable IMO.
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There's an FAQ or something somewhere that keeps that from working. Basically you don't count as having a class ability until you get your first use of that ability.
16 to 18 is not a terrible DC for level 2, especially when failure usually just means half damage. And the DC will scale with your level, always staying relevant. The DC is only going to be bad if you choose to keep it bad.The save DC shouldn't be that low. It scales with level and for form infusions is based off of dexterity, which your average witch will have as a secondary stat anyway.It won't be high. It certainly won't (or shouldn't) be anywhere close to your spell DC. Your Fan of Flames should be about 14, maxing around 16, your Torrent or Blast should be about 16, maxing around 18. That's if you start with 16 Dexterity.
Ah, I see what I've missed. The DC is based on the effective blast level, not the Infusion level. That makes sense. So it's still really bad damage, but the saves are increasingly hard to make. Assuming starting at a 16 Dex and increasing by +2 at levels 5, 10, and 14...
1: 4.5 -- (14)
3: 8 -- (14)
5: 11.5 -- (16)
7: 15 -- (17)
9: 18.5 -- (18)
11: 22 -- (20)
13: 25.5 -- (21)
15: 29 -- (23)
17: 32.5 -- (24)
19: 36 -- (25)
That... still isn't very good.
That... still isn't very good.
I don't think anyone ever said it was very good. It's really not even "just ok". It'd need infusion specialization to be "just ok". In its current state, it's just "kind of bad".
In regards of improving the kinetic blast, one thing you could potentially do is to get a Chuspiki improved familiar, and pick up Interweave Composite Blast. PFS has a ruling that the familiar doesn't progress the kinetic blast, but according to RAW I'm pretty sure it would increase by 1d6 every other level, so when you can pick it up, you're looking at double the damage output if you choose a blast that has a composite with air (so, pretty much any energy blast).
...of course, you could always just get a Chuspiki as an improved familiar and not be a Havocker, and have it use the super-cantrip without taking up any of your actions.
That... still isn't very good.I don't think anyone ever said it was very good. It's really not even "just ok". It'd need infusion specialization to be "just ok". In its current state, it's just "kind of bad".
Ah. That makes sense. I misunderstood you and thought you were saying that it "wasn't all that bad"
For a moment I had a glimmer of hope for Extra Hex.
The Chuspiki improved familiar sounds interesting.