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Yes, judging by the Athletics sample, the DC problem was quite well salvaged! (dances)Is it though? Proficiency incrementing by two for each tier while DC increments by 5 twice and 10 twice seems... mathematically problematic.
Especially when you consider if the stat involved is or isn't maxed out (for example, sorcerers will *never* have their arcane/divine/primal skill maxed out, so will always effectively be at -1 or higher on any check), and that at the level you get to the proficiency tier, each party member will have exactly one skill of that tier.
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But let's show some work and look at the level you get each tier, assuming a maxed stat (level+ proficiency bonus + stat) (using the playtest numbers for when you get access to proficiency tiers)
Trained, level 1: (1+2+4)=+7 vs a DC of 15. 8+, or 65% chance of success. Fine.
And as you level this DC is completely irrelevant shockingly fast.Expert, level 3: (3+4+4)=+11 vs a DC of 20. 9+, of 60% chance of success. Not bad...
But you're going to start seeing non-specialized characters at this level, as people go for locked skill feats or skills they feel are appropriate to their character. In particular sorcerers, rangers (survival and athletics come to mind) and others who want skills that don't match their class bonus are going to struggle a bit more.Master, level 7: (7+6+4)=+17 vs a DC of 30. 13+, or 40% chance of success. Ouch.
That took a sudden turn, didn't it? Not even coin flip territory anymore, and non-specialists can drop down to 30% or even below!Legendary, level 15: (15+8+5!)=+28 vs DC 40. 12+, or 45% chance.
The stat bump back at level 10 (or 15) really helped, as did the level requirement, and a stat item is also possible at this level, so you can drag your specialist up to 50% chance at a tier appropriate challenge. Non specialists will fall off, however, as dragging off-stats beyond 18 is questionable.
Master ironically seems like the real problem level, where you're significantly losing ground for gaining skill- it will take you three levels (to 10th, +3 and a stat bump) to get back the chance of success you had as a newly minted expert. Against tier appropriate challenges, I mean- obviously expert checks will now be completely, utterly trivial (3+).
The big problem with Master proficiency is its so close to expert (4 levels) and you still haven't gotten to the point where you can get a stat to 20. Attaining legendary requires 8 levels, adds the +2 and gets the stat bonus. So legend is adding +11 vs a DC increase of 10, rather than Master's +6 (4 levels and 2 from proficiency). There just aren't any optimization tricks you can apply: you've gained 4 points less than the DC increase, the end.
Not having the relevant stat maxed is a big deal in all cases.
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So it isn't terrible, except for mastery. And the only solution is to grind out more levels with the knowledge that any Master based skill challenges put you at a significant disadvantage until level 10. And the DM will _want_ to throw Master checks at you- you'll be passing Expert checks on a 3+. 3+ vs 13+ is a big gap.
Part of the formulae for DCs, however is that you're adding your level, so yes, the first level where you gain access to doing Master level stuff is 7th, but it goes all the way to 14th before you're getting regular access to Legendary difficulties.
At level 14, with your math and not including any additional bonuses, you have 14+6+4 or +24 succeeding on a 6 or better (likely even better with your attribute bump at 10th.
With the increase of 5% chance per level, I'd say it looks like a pretty sweet spot of challenging across multiple levels. I'd expect during these levels, you'd be facing maybe 10% expert DCs, maybe 80% Master and 10% Legendary.
I think we may need to take a look at how a mid-way through the expected levels at a given proficiency expectation do vs. these numbers.
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Assuming that secondary/tertiary are 2 stat bonus points behind.
Trained Level 2 (2+2+4) +8
Secondary: Untrained (0+0+2) +2
vs DC 15// 70% / 40%
Expert Level 5 (5+4+4) +13
Secondary: Trained (5+2+2) +9
Tertiary: Untrained (0+0+2) +2
vs DC 20// 70% / 50% / 15%
Should be easy: Trained DC 10// 100+% / 100% / 65%
Master Level 11 (11+6+5) +22
Secondary: Expert (11+4+3) +18
Tertiary: Trained (11+2+3) +16
vs DC 30// 65% / 45% / 35%
Should be easy: Expert DC 20// 100+% / 95% / 80%
Legendary Level 17 (17+8+6) +31
Secondary: Master (17+6+4) +27
Tertiary: Expert (17+4+4) +25
vs. DC 40// 60% / 40% / 30%
Should be easy: Master DC 30// 100+% / 85% / 30%
On these basis, I'd say they hit a pretty good sweet spot between challenge and auto-success. And any buff or equipment bonus still has a bit of wiggle room to work with.
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Expert/master/legendary tools are probably assumed at some point for a specialist. That will help level the success rates.
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Assuming that secondary/tertiary are 2 stat bonus points behind.
Trained Level 2 (2+2+4) +8
Secondary: Untrained (0+0+2) +2
vs DC 15// 70% / 40%Expert Level 5 (5+4+4) +13
Secondary: Trained (5+2+2) +9
Tertiary: Untrained (0+0+2) +2
vs DC 20// 70% / 50% / 15%
Should be easy: Trained DC 10// 100+% / 100% / 65%Master Level 11 (11+6+5) +22
Secondary: Expert (11+4+3) +18
Tertiary: Trained (11+2+3) +16
vs DC 30// 65% / 45% / 35%
Should be easy: Expert DC 20// 100+% / 95% / 80%Legendary Level 17 (17+8+6) +31
Secondary: Master (17+6+4) +27
Tertiary: Expert (17+4+4) +25
vs. DC 40// 60% / 40% / 30%
Should be easy: Master DC 30// 100+% / 85% / 30%On these basis, I'd say they hit a pretty good sweet spot between challenge and auto-success. And any buff or equipment bonus still has a bit of wiggle room to work with.
Thank you for taking the time, that looks very promising ^^
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You also have to consider how often you are expecting to encounter that level of difficulty at a specific level. If you look at the Athletics Sample Climb tasks(Spoiler #78), it lists master as climbing the ceiling.
Climbing the Ceiling should be a DC 30. Also, if you have a level 7 adventure a GM should not expect his PCs to climb across the ceiling to succeed, BUT if you have a climbing master in the party, the table would literally go insane if a level 7 PC climbed across the ceiling to get the thing.
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You also have to consider how often you are expecting to encounter that level of difficulty at a specific level. If you look at the Athletics Sample Climb tasks(Spoiler #78), it lists master as climbing the ceiling.
Climbing the Ceiling should be a DC 30. Also, if you have a level 7 adventure a GM should not expect his PCs to climb across the ceiling to succeed, BUT if you have a climbing master in the party, the table would literally go insane if a level 7 PC climbed across the ceiling to get the thing.
OT, I had a sudden flashback to Jess Squirrel from Redwall, legendary climber and certified awesome.
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Yeah, I don't think Legendary DC checks are actually assumed to be the norm just because the PCs have hit a certain level.
Until we know more about the frequency and circumstances under which particular DCs are used, we lack sufficient information to properly analyze this.
The other thing to remember is this is just the table for static events, i.e. the DC to climb the caste is constant and doesn't matter if you are level 1 or level 20. I think that we should still expect a table, or at least a discussion on producing level appropriate DCs for a given obstacle/opponent.
"This lock is an appropriate obstacle for level 7 PCs, so the DC should be about 25, meaning an expert has a 50-50 chance to succeed, if you have a master thief, it still has a 40% fail rate"
"the lore check to know this piece of info is very difficult for the PCs at level 10 in this adventure, so the DC is 35, meaning your lore master has a 35% chance to know it, but only if they are maxed out in this esoteric topic."
"this crime boss is skimping on his guard salaries so he can't afford a really good one. The stealth check for the level 5 party should be easy for anyone that is trained. DC is 15, putting success rate at 60%+."
I think the values make sense. As you level up, Expert tasks get increasingly easy as you do them more. At some point in time, you gain the ability to do Master tasks, which are difficult at first, then get easier as you do them more, and so on.
I think the assumption that there's set points where everything you've been doing so far suddenly gets less likely to succeed is a misinterpretation based on the fact that we only have a DC table, and none of the rules to support it. We've got no guidance on what constitutes an Expert task vs a Master one, etc.
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Just quoting the relevant Spoiler card for easier observation;
Athletics Skill Description
Sample Climb Tasks
Untrained ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert wall with small handholds and footholds
Master ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary smooth surface
For now, the simulationist inside myself is quite content that a reasonable measure for static DCs are still well expected in the game engine.
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Just quoting the relevant Spoiler card for easier observation;
For now, the simulationist inside myself is quite content that a reasonable measure for static DCs are still well expected in the game engine.Athletics Skill Description
Sample Climb Tasks
Untrained ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert wall with small handholds and footholds
Master ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary smooth surface
Task difficulty not being based on level for this is great!! Things in the world have some difficulty and your character can achieve that whenever, based on their investment.
I love the Static DC’s. But we need more Info...
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Just quoting the relevant Spoiler card for easier observation;
For now, the simulationist inside myself is quite content that a reasonable measure for static DCs are still well expected in the game engine.Athletics Skill Description
Sample Climb Tasks
Untrained ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert wall with small handholds and footholds
Master ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary smooth surface
So... If we cross-reference the two tables, Expected DCs would be...
Athletics Skill Description
Sample Climb Tasks
Untrained (DC 5-10?) ladder, steep slope, low-branched tree
Trained (DC 15) rigging, rope, typical tree
Expert (DC 20) wall with small handholds and footholds
Master (DC 30) ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary (DC 40) smooth surface
... TBH, DC 40 seems a bit low for climbing a smooth surface like Spider-Man... xD
Legendary Level 17 (17+8+6) +31
Secondary: Master (17+6+4) +27
Tertiary: Expert (17+4+4) +25
vs. DC 40// 60% / 40% / 30%
... and 60% success on climbing a smooth surface (like a glass pane!?) seems VERY high.
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... and 60% success on climbing a smooth surface (like a glass pane!?) seems VERY high.
Doesn't seem at all unreasonable for a 17th level character. Sounds like the stuff legends are made of.
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Doesn't seem at all unreasonable for a 17th level character. Sounds like the stuff legends are made of.
... and 60% success on climbing a smooth surface (like a glass pane!?) seems VERY high.
I’m picturing a Fighter with legendary in athletics.
Fighter: ‘Fighter man, Fighter man; does whatever a Fighter can~’
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Doesn't seem at all unreasonable for a 17th level character. Sounds like the stuff legends are made of.
... and 60% success on climbing a smooth surface (like a glass pane!?) seems VERY high.I’m picturing a Fighter with legendary in athletics.
Fighter: ‘Fighter man, Fighter man; does whatever a Fighter can~’
Raises shields, any size, catches arrows, parries blades!
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Raises shields, any size, catches arrows, parries blades!Doesn't seem at all unreasonable for a 17th level character. Sounds like the stuff legends are made of.
... and 60% success on climbing a smooth surface (like a glass pane!?) seems VERY high.I’m picturing a Fighter with legendary in athletics.
Fighter: ‘Fighter man, Fighter man; does whatever a Fighter can~’
Should have been parries knives, bud. :)
On top of that, which is very true, we must not forget that at higher levels, we should have better access to spells and magic items, as well as some feats that might make specific tasks easier. So if there's a very important DC to pass, more bonuses could be added to those numbers.
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Well, how many successes do you need to make in a row?
Let's say that the climb check needs 3 successes in a row.
You have a 60% chance to succeed.
So, 60% chance to make the first one.
60% of 60% to make the second one which is a 36% chance to make 2 in a row.
60% of 60% of 60% to make the third which is a 21.6% chance for 3 in a row.
Adding successive checks makes things increasingly difficult if you're afraid of things being too easy for the players.
Let's say that they have an 85% chance to make the check.
2 in a row: ~72%
3 in a row: ~61%
4 in a row: ~52%
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That assumes you need to make multiple checks with zero failures. Per the playtest, for climbing, only critical failures actually stop you, normal failures simply result in no progress being made.
Anything over a 50% chance of success gives a 5% chance of critical failure, which makes the total odds of success on extended tests much greater.
This is also how picking locks seems to work, and seems likely to be standard for extended tests in general, while things like Stealth were pretty explicitly a single check rather than a series of them in the playtest. So the cumulative odds of failure thing is probably not huge deal for people competent at the task in question if they stick with these two options (as they seem to have based on what information we have).
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Eh! I'm VERY happy with having "that" high of a chance to do that at high level! Sorry if I wasn't clear! I was defending the DCs. :P
I feel like they are exactly where they should be.
In that case we are all in Accord!
Fighter man fighter man. Does whatever a fighter can.
Is he strong? Listen man, hes got 22 Strength Ka BLAM!
Designer
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Yeah, I don't think Legendary DC checks are actually assumed to be the norm just because the PCs have hit a certain level.
That's accurate. If you're playing a 15th-level adventure, a normal brick wall isn't gonna be any more difficult than it would have been in a 7th-level adventure.
Also worth noting that the simple DC categories are benchmarks for the GM to use for tasks, and don't require the listed proficiency rank. (With some exceptions, like hazards.)