Drawing Dual Weapons


General Discussion

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After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?


It's not 2WF specific per se, but Quick Draw (which is a Rogue 2 Feat) seems perfectly suitable...
"You draw a weapon with the Interact action, then Strike with the weapon you just drew."
It lets you Draw 2 weapons and make 2 normal attacks with them, and still have 1 action left (if you have 3 actions).
It isn't compatible with multi-action activities, and any special 1-action ability you might have will have to be done with 3rd action/attack
but it works perfectly fine for getting off 2 normal attacks along with drawing 2 weapons, and doesn't impede next round at all.


Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.

Why would you need to draw a weapon if you aren't in a position to attack? Why is it an issue that quick draw doesn't work with Double Slice if rogues don't get it? Also, it works fine with Twin Takedown. Quick draw >quick draw > Twin Takedown is the same number of attacks at the same bonuses. It may wind up getting broken up across two turns if you need to move or hunt target, but it still keeps offensive momentum going.

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.

Why would you need to draw a weapon if you aren't in a position to attack? Why is it an issue that quick draw doesn't work with Double Slice if rogues don't get it? Also, it works fine with Twin Takedown. Quick draw >quick draw > Twin Takedown is the same number of attacks at the same bonuses. It may wind up getting broken up across two turns if you need to move or hunt target, but it still keeps offensive momentum going.

Well, in most cases, my character is at the top or close to the top in initiative and has to pull out a weapon, stride, and then strike. On the second turn, my character has to then pull out a second weapon to use the dual weapon attack. In your example, it would take the character moving and then using three actions (pull out two weapons and put on a hunter’s mark) just to use twin takedown. My problem is not specifically for rogues (whom, if I recall correctly, the developers said was going to get dual weapon feats), but for fighters and rangers who do have dual weapon attacks that take too many (my opinion) actions to pull off their feat specialization (assuming it was a specialized choice).


Narxiso wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.

Why would you need to draw a weapon if you aren't in a position to attack? Why is it an issue that quick draw doesn't work with Double Slice if rogues don't get it? Also, it works fine with Twin Takedown. Quick draw >quick draw > Twin Takedown is the same number of attacks at the same bonuses. It may wind up getting broken up across two turns if you need to move or hunt target, but it still keeps offensive momentum going.
Well, in most cases, my character is at the top or close to the top in initiative and has to pull out a weapon, stride, and then strike. On the second...

A ranger might not be able to move across a room unarmed and then twin takedown in one turn, but move > quick draw > quick draw followed next turn by hunt target > twin takedown > strike works fine. Even the fighter, who doesn't get Quick Draw, can move > draw > strike on the first turn, then draw > double slice the next turn. Double Slice is a really good feat and needing a little tactical set up is not that big a cost.

The way iterative penalties work, attacking once on an opening turn is a fine decision that most characters have to make anyway. A barbarian in this situation couldn't move > draw > rage > strike, for example.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.

Why would you need to draw a weapon if you aren't in a position to attack? Why is it an issue that quick draw doesn't work with Double Slice if rogues don't get it? Also, it works fine with Twin Takedown. Quick draw >quick draw > Twin Takedown is the same number of attacks at the same bonuses. It may wind up getting broken up across two turns if you need to move or hunt target, but it still keeps offensive momentum going.

A rogue would want to draw a weapon when out of melee reach with a fighter. Drawing a weapon is an Interact action.

[[Action]] Interact (page 307 in Playtest Rulebook)
Manipulate
You use your hand or hands to manipulate
an object or the terrain. You grab an unattended or stored
object, open a door, or do some similar action. You may have
to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action
was successful.

That Manipulate trait means that drawing a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity.

Also, Quick Draw is available only to rangers and rogues, not to a high Dexterity fighter or monk. The alchemist has Quick Bomber instead, allowing the class to draw two alchemical bombs with one Interact action, which is slower than Quick Draw.

The ranger or rogue can also learn Running Reload:

[[Action]] Running Reload Feat 4
Ranger (page 116) or Rogue (page 122)
You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload.

So with a 4th-level feat a ranger can perform an action more complicated than drawing two weapons while moving. Reload is described on page 179: "Reload Ranged weapons indicate how many Interact actions it takes to reload them. ..." It specifies that thrown weapons are drawn rather than reloaded. The reload of a regular crossbow takes 1 Interact action and a crossbow bolt for ammunition. That is a process that involves drawing back the string on the crossbow, drawing a crossbow bolt, notching the bolt on the string, and regripping the crossbow in two hands, all in a single Interact action.

The Interact action is plainly badly written. I am 75% confident that Paizo must have corrected it for the final rules. And if they didn't, I have a lot of houserules ready, such as an Interact action allowing a character to draw multiple weapons.

As a technical example about how badly Interact iis written, reloading requires a free hand, a bow or crossbow is held in two hands for use, and changing a grip on a weapon is an Interact action on its own, so reloading a bow or crossbow as written requires an extra Interact action to free up one hand. The reload rules explicitly mention, "When you spend the last action required to reload a weapon you’re holding, as part of that action, you can place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon normally," so a second extra Interact is not necessary. Clearly, the second hand to use the weapon is intended as free to reload, because otherwise shooting a bow does not require an Interact action for the reload 0.

Oh, with a little creativity, a character can draw two weapons in a single Interact action as written in the playtest. Sheath both weapons on the same belt or bandolier. Interact with the belt, which counts as manipulating one object, to put its weapons into both of the characters hands.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
After playing the playtest for a bit, I have found that not being able to draw two weapons with a dual wielding specialized character (Rogue) really hampers the first round (and often the second). Did I miss something about drawing two weapons, or is it possible to add in a feat for drawing two weapons?

Per the rules, you must spend an action for each weapon you wish to draw. Wasting 2 actions on the first round of combat just to properly participate in combat is pretty bad and clunky design, something that I feel is an oversight on the developers' part.

Quandary does offer something that can help mitigate this, but Quick Draw is at-best a band-aid and at-worst a waste of time since you can only use Quick Draw when you're in a position to attack, and it actually wouldn't work if you wished to use feats like Double Slice or Twin Takedown, which aren't available to the Rogue starting out anyway.

Then again, most adventures I've been a part of thus far have had us with our weapons out anyway, so I haven't felt the worst of consequences, but I imagine if you're in an unexpected encounter (such as being attacked while sleeping), or if you regain consciousness from the Dying condition, that you would have major struggle to initiate (or maintain) combat participation effectively.

Hopefully with the new rules they'll have it fixed.

Why would you need to draw a weapon if you aren't in a position to attack? Why is it an issue that quick draw doesn't work with Double Slice if rogues don't get it? Also, it works fine with Twin Takedown. Quick draw >quick draw > Twin Takedown is the same number of attacks at the same bonuses. It may wind up getting broken up across two turns if you need to move or hunt target, but it still keeps offensive momentum going.

So you don't waste precious in-combat actions doing so. I said it was clunky, and this is precisely the reason why.

It's an issue because this creates a major disconnect with fluid and flexible multiclassing. It's the "Vital Strike doesn't work with anything" issue we had back in PF1, except now it's with drawing weapons instead of specific action types, which is problematic when the game is supposed to be simple and effective. And now I have feats which require multiclassing to acquire that I can't use because of separate mechanics being extremely clunky. And I'm not the only one who's made this claim; there's actually a player right now in our group who dislikes having to spend actions drawing weapons when most trained individuals can do so at the drop of a hat without any special effort required.

This assumes you're already toe-to-toe with the enemy. In every combat I've been in, that never happens except when it's not in your favor, as well as having a target previously hunted (Twin Takedown only works on a Hunted Target), meaning staying and fighting is probably the worst thing you can do in that moment.

Following the "combats last 3 turns" ordeal like it has been in PF1, you're spending 2/3 of your combat just setting up to do your schtick. That's bad design. If you're lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you view it), you might get more if combats last longer, but more often than not, those added rounds may very well be because you had to waste 2 rounds just to properly participate in combat. Which is again, bad design.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
So you don't waste precious in-combat actions doing so. I said it was clunky, and this is precisely the reason why.

I know players who under the Playtest Rules would carry their two-handed weapons or their pair of dual-wield weapons in attack-ready position all the time in order to avoid taking an Interact action to draw or regrip them. Since the Playtest clarified that some actions require a certain number of free hands, this means that they won't be able to open doors. I can imagine their PC standing in front of a closed unlocked door in the dungeon begging another PC to open the door for them.

Think about it: under the playtest rules, a player gripping a two-handed weapon ready to attack will require 2 actions to open a door: a free action to release one hand, an Interact action to open the door and another Interact action to regrip the weapon--before the Move action to step through the doorway. Thus, the first person into the room will immediately be out of actions.

I wish to avoid this awkward scenario; therefore, I am considering houserules and praying that Paizo fixed it already.

I did play D&D games where the rogue next to the door listening would open the door so that the fighter could charge inside. That made more sense than Interact in the playtest.

In real life, I open my front door while carrying 4 bags of groceries and step inside fast enough that none of our dogs rush outside while the door is open (our pug-beagle mix does that if I am not quick). And Dexterity is my dump stat.

My current thoughts for houserules are to divide interactions into three tiers: simple, double, and manipulation. A character can perform 3 simple interactions during an Interact action, such as drawing a weapon, changing a grip, or opening an unlocked door. If an Interact action consists of only 1 or 2 simple interactions, then it lacks the Manipulate trait. A double interation, such as unlocking a door with a key, counts as 2 simple interactions. A manipulation interaction, such as opening and drinking a potion or reloading a projectile weapon with reload 1 or higher, takes the entire Interact action (or more for reload 2), and always has the Manipulate trait. In addition, with a successful Acrobatics check, usually DC 10, a character can add 1 simple interaction to a half-speed Move. Failure means the character either half-speed Moves or simple Interacts, his choice. Critical failure means neither happens. Critical Success means full speed.

This houserule would give every Alchemist Quick Bomber. I would alter Quick Draw to allow a simple Interact with a Strike rather than just an Interact to draw and a Strike with the drawn weapon.

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